TVB Released VCD/DVD Questions

[Ken Cheng]

I am guessing that the recent BUND version is Taiseng since it is compressed. But lets see what Ken says when he gets the set.

You'll know if you hear any reports of a mysterious black helicopter blowing up an office building somewhere during the next few days.

[Trinie]

You'll know if you hear any reports of a mysterious black helicopter blowing up an office building somewhere during the next few days.

Oh brother.... I think Ken is doing it for real.. TVB, BEWARE

[Ghaleon]

OKAY I've bought lot of VCDs and DVDs and the TVB and Chinese DVD releases aren't as nice as the Korean DVD sets. That's kinda disappointing. The Korean sets have really nice looking packages (and sometimes they even come with pictured booklets) and quite a few special features (making of documentary, cast interviews, etc.). Granted the Korean DVDs tend to cost a bit more. But for official DVD sets, i'd rather pay a bit more to get real nice sets with fantastic visuals, special features and packaging.

Let's compare!

HK TVB sets:


Taiseng sets:


Korean DVD set:

The only site that I know that sells Taiseng Chinese DVD sets is Yesasia. The other site that I used to order from was sensasian.com. But I don't think they sell any DVD sets from Taiseng. I don't remember though but you can check. I know of some for the VIet DVDs but I think you want the Chinese version right?? I used to go a store in my local Chinatown but they sell for the same price as Yesasia...

Yeah usually the Chinese version. Well the ones that I buy from taiseng all have engilsh subtitles as well. I just found out that amazon.com sells some Taiseng DVDs (the ones with the english subs). They are also seem to be cheaper than yesasia.com by 10-20 bucks. But yesasia has a greater selection (they also have the ones without the english subs). dvdasian.com also sells Taiseng DVDs at a good price.

[Ken Cheng]

Well, my THE BUND DVD set arrived in the mail yesterday.

First: TVBI and Tai Seng will not need to fear an attack by Airwolf at this time. They got things correct enough to avoid that fate. Not to say that the job that they did with THE BUND DVD set is *perfect* (more on that later), but it’s good enough to spare them an Airwolf attack. The Lady stays in the Lair…for now.

OK, first, the good news: THE BUND and its two sequels are presented in their original broadcast (or at least 1980s VHS issue) form…no weird edits, no weird cuts, no arcane additions of inappropriate music that wasn’t in the original series. To me, with this DVD release, it seemed almost as if TVBI was aiming for an archival release of THE BUND…something to mark this landmark series as a historic moment in TVB and Hong Kong pop culture history (something they are quite aware of and even allude to in the hype on the back of the DVD box) and thus, they treat it with proper respect by presenting in its original form, warts and all.

That said, the DVD is not edit-free, although the edits this time around make sense and have more to do with how DVD menus work than any attempt to cut corners as in the previous VCD releases.

One thing that made THE BUND different from other TVB series is that each episode started with either a two or three minute lead in sequence or flashback of major events from the previous episode before the theme song was played. That was useful for a daily television broadcast, but would be redundant on a home video release. Moreover, because of this unique format, TVB had to make special accommodations for how the DVD menu would work. Hence, each episode *begins* with the playing of the theme song (in its original freeze frame format), editing out the flashback sequence that precedes it. The flashbacks are edited out (the audience doesn’t really need them anyway), but lead-in sequences are not, although if you want to watch the lead-in sequence, you’ve got to watch it from the end of the *previous* episode, because that’s where the sequence will be shown. It’s a little awkward if you’re watching one episode at a time. I’m guessing that TVBI assumed that most audiences would be watching the DVDs straight through rather than one episode at a time. This is slightly annoying. I’d have preferred that they preserved everything as it was originally broadcast on television or issued on VHS in the 1980s, but compared to the mass edits of the VCD, this is acceptable. Nothing essential is lost. Moreover, the minor edits were actually sort of clever this time around rather than the hamfisted butchery of the VCD edits. Some of the fade out and fade ins have a characteristically 1970s/1980s look, feeling very authentic even if the fades weren’t originally in the broadcast.

Related to that issue, the DVD menus do not treat THE BUND and its two sequels as three separate series. The menus give you Episodes 1-65 of THE BUND, as if all three parts were the same series (which is an interesting way to look at it, as it was never meant to be a trilogy; THE BUND II and THE BUND III were only made to satisfy audience demands for more after the phenomenal success of the first series). The original episode opening titles are retained in the video itself (i.e. THE BUND II and THE BUND III and their original episode markings are retained), but the menus treat all three series as continuous. An interesting choice.

Final note on DVD menus for THE BUND: they’re minimalist. No moving pictures. Background pictures, however, included stills of scenes from all three series, which was nice.

Standard Cantonese/Mandarin dialogue tracks. No subtitles in any language, which is curious. I thought they might not bother with the English this time, but no Chinese subtitles either? Weird (not that I use them, but still, weird).

One thing that is definitely authentic about the DVD release is the picture quality. We were worried about what effects the compression of eight episodes on a disc would have on the picture quality of THE BUND and its sequels. The news here is mixed. On the one hand, it’s clean and it’s superior to anything but a master VHS picture, but on the other hand, you can tell that TVBI did not invest on digitally remastering and enhancing the picture quality like it did with the 1980s Jin Yong adaptation series. I could tell by examining the details on some indoor shoots. For example, in Episode 1 of the series, when Hui Mun Keung and Fong Yim Wan enter her palatial home for the first time, I paid attention to the lace that decorated Fong Yim Wan’s sofa. If the series had been digitially remastered, we’d have seen every thread of that lace in crystal clarity. As it is, the lace had the same background fuzziness we remember from the 1980s television broadcast and subsequent VHS release. This is a mixed blessing. In the remastered Jin Yong adaptation DVDs, for example, the digital remastering uncovered many flaws that were not so noticeable in the original broadcast/VHS release. In LOCH ’82, for example, what had looked fuzzily like an incense stick burner or chopstick holder was revealed jarringly to be an abandoned orange juice can with a plastic straw by the digital remastering The costumes and props of the various Jin Yong adaptations looked flimsier and cheaper than they originally had as a result of the remastering. THE BUND, unremastered, doesn’t have that problem, for better or worse. The series looks authentic to its original release. Those who were hoping for a superior remaster, however, will be disappointed. TVBI left the tapes untouched…might have cleaned them up a bit, but did not enhance them. Depending on your point of view, that could be good or bad.

Funny/annoying: the little artifacts of 1980s TVB releases…the old TVB logo in the corner that appears from time to time per episode, have been retained (didn’t see these in the Jin Yong adaptations), as does the logo “US” in some episodes…just like in the old VHS tapes. Looks like TVBI went to the old broadcast masters and didn’t do much editing on them. It was just a straight transfer from the old masters. I like that; some might find it minimalistic.

The packaging was minimalist as well, but gets to job done. The images are recycled from the VCD release, and I wonder about the blue background. Blue was never THE BUND’s color (then again, just what *was* the BUND’s color?). I’d have chosen maroon or red myself. Minor quibble.

So there you have it: that’s what you’re getting for your $52.00 (U.S.) for THE BUND’s DVD…a historic release in archival form.

I skimmed through the DVDs last night. I’ll be posting commentaries on THE BUND II and THE BUND III (as well as the original series) in THE BUND thread I started at this forum some time ago. I only watched a little of II and III and from what I saw last night, the character of Ding Lik might be more interesting and complex than I previously thought.

[almo89]

Good review. Still not up to my standards though, but I expected it since it was a TaiSeng only release. From what you are saying, the video was most likely never remastered by TVB in HK. What I don't like is that they edited out the preview at the beginning of each episode. The bootleg Jap version I have left this in. I loved it even though I was watching it on DVD. I thought it was always cool that they show a mini preview before doing the freeze frame. They do this for american TV shows like 24 and lost. They'll do the "Previously on 24" and then show the stuff from the last episode. I'm a purist and they need to keep everything that was intended. Just my 2 cents.

[Canuck21]

One thing that is definitely authentic about the DVD release is the picture quality. We were worried about what effects the compression of eight episodes on a disc would have on the picture quality of THE BUND and its sequels. The news here is mixed. On the one hand, it’s clean, it’s clear, and it’s superior to any but a master VHS picture, but on the other hand, you can tell that TVBI did not invest on digitally remastering and enhancing the picture quality like it did with the 1980s Jin Yong adaptation series. I could tell by examining the details on some indoor shoots. For example, in Episode 1 of the series, when Hui Mun Keung and Fong Yim Wan enter her palatial home for the first time, I paid attention to the lace that decorated Fong Yim Wan’s sofa. If the series had been digitially remastered, we’d have seen every thread of that lace in crystal clarity. As it is, the lace had the same background fuzziness we remember from the 1980s television broadcast and subsequent VHS release. This is a mixed blessing. In the remastered Jin Yong adaptation DVDs, for example, the digital remastering uncovered many flaws that were not so noticeable in the original broadcast/VHS release. In LOCH ’82, for example, what had looked fuzzily like an incense stick burner or chopstick holder was revealed jarringly to be an abandoned orange juice can with a plastic straw by the digital remastering The costumes and props of the various Jin Yong adaptations looked flimsier and cheaper than they originally had as a result of the remastering. THE BUND, unremastered, doesn’t have that problem, for better or worse. The series looks authentic to its original release. Those who were hoping for a superior remaster, however, will be disappointed. TVBI left the tapes untouched…might have cleaned them up a bit, but did not enhance them. Depending on your point of view, that could be good or bad.

I think you are underestimating the negative effect of over-compression. 8 episodes per disc is simply unacceptable. The lack of detail you're describing might very well be the result of compression artifacts. A non-remastered source can be sort of dirty, but can still retain detail if the master tape is in good shape.

I have received my Tai Seng copy of LOCH in Vietnamese and I must say that I'm disappointed with the picture quality due to the heavy artifacts. I could see that the source was good, but the picture was ruined by over-compression. I'll do a review of the boxset when I'll be less lazy.

Good review. Still not up to my standards though, but I expected it since it was a TaiSeng only release. From what you are saying, the video was most likely never remastered by TVB in HK. What I don't like is that they edited out the preview at the beginning of each episode. The bootleg Jap version I have left this in. I loved it even though I was watching it on DVD. I thought it was always cool that they show a mini preview before doing the freeze frame. They do this for american TV shows like 24 and lost. They'll do the "Previously on 24" and then show the stuff from the last episode. I'm a purist and they need to keep everything that was intended. Just my 2 cents.

Chinese companies, especially Tai Seng, have a very hard time grasping the purist concept. It is a concept that seems extremely hard for them to understand.

[Ghaleon]

Chinese companies, especially Tai Seng, have a very hard time grasping the purist concept. It is a concept that seems extremely hard for them to understand.

I can understand the video quality complaints but i think you guys are over-complaining about the previews at the beginning of each episode. I detested them in the 24 Fox releases. If you're watching the series straight through episode by episode (like a marathon run) then those previews are a waste of time and sort of ruins the continuity. i haven't watched Bund but you dont think the previews ruin the flow?

Speaking of which, why does yesasia.com show "product currently not available" for all the recent TVB releases? It's next to impossible ordering the new TVB series from them if they keep doing that.

[Canuck21]

I can understand the video quality complaints but i think you guys are over-complaining about the previews at the beginning of each episode. I detested them in the 24 Fox releases. If you're watching the series straight through episode by episode (like a marathon run) then those previews are a waste of time and sort of ruins the continuity. i haven't watched Bund but you dont think the previews ruin the flow?

No the previews don't bother me. I prefer that the episodes are presented exactly as they were originally showed. That's a purist mentality that is rather rare among Asians I believe, but we do exist. Having said that, not having the previews is not a big deal either, it's just a preference. What's important to me is picture quality. I don't expect perfection, I don't mind noise and even a bit of dirt here and there as long as the detail is there, alas it's not always the case. I hate it when Tai Seng tries to reduce the noise by smoothing the picture out, but that compromises detail. I don't mind a little bit of noise reduction, but Tai Seng often does it to the extreme. Either that or it crams too many episodes into one disc which adds digital artifacts and that also reduces detail. In short, there has to be a balance between smoothness and detail. The Hong Kong DVDs look quite nice, but my copy of Tai Seng is to be desired.

[wargods]

This release has nothing to do with TVBI, TVBI will eventually release it themselves (who knows when....)

Secondly, TVBI has the subtitles stored somewhere, so either Taiseng has no access to it, or they are just too lazy....

Basically, Taiseng converted whatever they have on their master tapes into DVD....therefore it has the old tvb logo, and no subtitle.

[Ghaleon]

No the previews don't bother me. I prefer that the episodes are presented exactly as they were originally showed. That's a purist mentality that is rather rare among Asians I believe, but we do exist. Having said that, not having the previews is not a big deal either, it's just a preference. What's important to me is picture quality. I don't expect perfection, I don't mind noise and even a bit of dirt here and there as long as the detail is there, alas it's not always the case. I hate it when Tai Seng tries to reduce the noise by smoothing the picture out, but that compromises detail. I don't mind a little bit of noise reduction, but Tai Seng often does it to the extreme. Either that or it crams too many episodes into one disc which adds digital artifacts and that also reduces detail. In short, there has to be a balance between smoothness and detail. The Hong Kong DVDs look quite nice, but my copy of Tai Seng is to be desired.

Well Korean DVDs usually only have maximum 3 episodes per disc, TVB varies from 3-4, and Taiseng can go beyond 4. I think out of all the asian DVDs I've seen for TV dramas, Korean and Japanese look the best (but they're also the most expensive). I guess you're a purist since you want everything exactly the way they were originally shown. But like you said, purists are rare. So majority rules I'm a marathon-runner DVD watcher so i rather they do without the previews.

[wargods]

Well Korean DVDs usually only have maximum 3 episodes per disc, TVB varies from 3-4, and Taiseng can go beyond 4. I think out of all the asian DVDs I've seen for TV dramas, Korean and Japanese look the best (but they're also the most expensive). I guess you're a purist since you want everything exactly the way they were originally shown. But like you said, purists are rare. So majority rules I'm a marathon-runner DVD watcher so i rather they do without the previews.

Majority rules for sure, but I don't know if you are included, because I am a purist too.

[Ghaleon]

Majority rules for sure, but I don't know if you are included, because I am a purist too.

LOL. You should spend more time complaining about the video transfer than the previews
Actually that (previews) should be low priority. Wouldn't you rather have special features as well? That's the thing lacking in Taiseng and tVB releases. There aren't that many special features (if any).

[wargods]

LOL. You should spend more time complaining about the video transfer than the previews
Actually that (previews) should be low priority. Wouldn't you rather have special features as well? That's the thing lacking in Taiseng and tVB releases. There aren't that many special features (if any).

Let's just say I am not in the majority group of complaining. In fact, I haven't done any complaining in this thread. I only provide news and facts.

[Ghaleon]

Let's just say I am not in the majority group of complaining. In fact, I haven't done any complaining in this thread. I only provide news and facts.

Ok so you're not complaining about the missing previews before each episode.

Related to that issue, the DVD menus do not treat THE BUND and its two sequels as three separate series. The menus give you Episodes 1-65 of THE BUND, as if all three parts were the same series (which is an interesting way to look at it, as it was never meant to be a trilogy; THE BUND II and THE BUND III were only made to satisfy audience demands for more after the phenomenal success of the first series).

Great review Ken. I prefer it this way as well. It makes it more cohesive. Is that what they did with the LOCH DVD release? I only got the VCD releases and they have three boxes, one for each part.

[almo89]

Korean DVD's are easily the highest quality for asian television. I recently watched Yi San and the quality is amazing. It was shot in HD, so the DVD was anamorphic and it looked great. Each episode was one hour long and there were 3 episodes per disk.

About TVB DVD's, well I think we have the right to complain when we drop so much money for these TV shows. We can easily download them for free, but we choose not too. I think we deserve to expect some high quality. The problem with the asian population is that they don't care. American TV shows get better treatment.

[Ghaleon]

Korean DVD's are easily the highest quality for asian television. I recently watched Yi San and the quality is amazing. It was shot in HD, so the DVD was anamorphic and it looked great. Each episode was one hour long and there were 3 episodes per disk.

About TVB DVD's, well I think we have the right to complain when we drop so much money for these TV shows. We can easily download them for free, but we choose not too. I think we deserve to expect some high quality. The problem with the asian population is that they don't care. American TV shows get better treatment.

Yeah Korean DVDs are definitely the highest quality. The packaging is absolutely gorgeous. The video quality is excellent and some of the series actually have special features. I just recently bought the YA Entertainment release of Jumong and the DVD set is easily my most treasured in my entire collection. The only problem is that the prices are steep. But like you said, since we can easily download series off the net, they might as well create an authentic DVD set that is super high quality. I think fans are willing to spend a little bit more to get a high quality collector's item that does the TV series justice. I mean if the TV series is one of your all-time favorites, wouldn't you want a royal treatment DVD release for it? After all, people can always download or buy grey market bootlegs if quality wasn't an issue.

American TV shows get great treatment. I bought the Angel, Stargate SG-1 and Buffy complete series sets recently. Not only is the packaging nice, but you get buck loads of special features and you don't have to worry about the video quality too much. Out of Asia, only Korea and Japan treat their series with that much respect.

I'm guessing the reason is that chinese countries are generally dominated by the bootleg and grey market industry. There is a higher demand for "fake" releases and low demand for pricier authentic ones. Sometimes it's even hard to find a store that sells real authentic chinese series. In Korea and Japan their cultural perspective on bootlegs might be different. I know in Japan there is lot of demand for real authentic products as fans want collector's items for their hobbies. It's a drasticaly different mentality than lot of chinese countries.

[almo89]

I'm guessing the reason is that chinese countries are generally dominated by the bootleg and grey market industry. There is a higher demand for "fake" releases and low demand for pricier authentic ones. Sometimes it's even hard to find a store that sells real authentic chinese series. In Korea and Japan their cultural perspective on bootlegs might be different. I know in Japan there is lot of demand for real authentic products as fans want collector's items for their hobbies. It's a drasticaly different mentality than lot of chinese countries.

Yeah the chinese mentality is so different. Quality is not the number one thing they worry about. It's price, so everybody downloads. Over here people still download, but if the show is good, they are willing to spend the money to buy it for collection.

[almo89]

I'm a little bit confused. How is the packging for the TVBI sets?

Like I mentioned, the Video Box sets I have used to be sold in plastic cases with a spindle in the middle. The discs themselves are printed in color with the image of the series. Now these sets are sold in smaller cardboard boxes at the stores I go to. These smallers sets have the logo of Media Plus and TVBI.

I finally got around answering ur question. Here's some screenshots for TVBI and Video Box version of War and Beauty (Sorry bad lighting and crap camera):


TVBI on the right and TS on the left


TVBI on the right and TS on the left


TVBI on the left and TS on the right

[Ken Cheng]

Good review. Still not up to my standards though, but I expected it since it was a TaiSeng only release. From what you are saying, the video was most likely never remastered by TVB in HK. What I don't like is that they edited out the preview at the beginning of each episode. The bootleg Jap version I have left this in. I loved it even though I was watching it on DVD. I thought it was always cool that they show a mini preview before doing the freeze frame. They do this for american TV shows like 24 and lost. They'll do the "Previously on 24" and then show the stuff from the last episode. I'm a purist and they need to keep everything that was intended. Just my 2 cents.

Those preview/flashback scenes were very important to the artistic integrity of this particular series, so I agree they should have been left as is. I gave TaiSeng a pass on this because the edits were handled gracefully and cut out nothing essential (i.e. if it was shown on television, it was seen on the DVD), but perhaps they should not have been done at all.

I think you are underestimating the negative effect of over-compression. 8 episodes per disc is simply unacceptable. The lack of detail you're describing might very well be the result of compression artifacts. A non-remastered source can be sort of dirty, but can still retain detail if the master tape is in good shape.

I have received my Tai Seng copy of LOCH in Vietnamese and I must say that I'm disappointed with the picture quality due to the heavy artifacts. I could see that the source was good, but the picture was ruined by over-compression. I'll do a review of the boxset when I'll be less lazy.

It could have been better, but I'll take it. I desperately needed a copy of THE BUND in a more durable format because my vintage 1980 tapes (yes, that's 1980, not 1980s...the tapes are nearly thirty years old) probably can't handle much more playing. I haven't played my THE BUND VHS tapes since around 2001, and I'm not sure they'd play anymore. That's why I was *desperate* for this DVD release, flawed as it is in some ways.

Chinese companies, especially Tai Seng, have a very hard time grasping the purist concept. It is a concept that seems extremely hard for them to understand.

Yeah...Chinese folks just have a hard time with the idea of historic and artistic integrity. Maybe they can get away with it on some generic TVB fluff series, but THE BUND was art, and you've got to treat art with respect. This is the TVB serial analogue to the Mona Lisa, and nobody would think of screwing around with the Mona Lisa. TVB has to treat THE BUND in a similar manner because it's the one series of theirs that they can hold up as something much more than just mindless see-lai fodder.

I can understand the video quality complaints but i think you guys are over-complaining about the previews at the beginning of each episode. I detested them in the 24 Fox releases. If you're watching the series straight through episode by episode (like a marathon run) then those previews are a waste of time and sort of ruins the continuity. i haven't watched Bund but you dont think the previews ruin the flow?

No, because those flashbacks (not previews) were an integral part of the artistic product of the series. THE BUND has an atmosphere unique to itself; no other TVB series ever produced was quite like it. The way those flashbacks were placed into the beginning of each episode (often touched up with music and different speed) really added to the flavor of the drama. That transition worked especially great in the transitions between Episodes 4 and 5, where we get an exciting review of the highlights of how Hui Mun Keung and Ding Lik went from being independent nightclub owners and gang leaders in Episode 4 to powerful lackeys of Fung Ging Yiu in Episode 5.

No the previews don't bother me. I prefer that the episodes are presented exactly as they were originally showed. That's a purist mentality that is rather rare among Asians I believe, but we do exist. Having said that, not having the previews is not a big deal either, it's just a preference.

Yeah, the edits didn't kill this DVD release of THE BUND, but they are slightly annoying. Compared to the butchery that was the VCD release, however, it's much better.

This release has nothing to do with TVBI, TVBI will eventually release it themselves (who knows when....)

Secondly, TVBI has the subtitles stored somewhere, so either Taiseng has no access to it, or they are just too lazy....

Basically, Taiseng converted whatever they have on their master tapes into DVD....therefore it has the old tvb logo, and no subtitle.

Which I guess means that sooner or later, I'll have to buy THE BUND on DVD again...

Ah, well...

Great review Ken. I prefer it this way as well. It makes it more cohesive. Is that
what they did with the LOCH DVD release? I only got the VCD releases and they have three boxes, one for each part.

LOCH separated its three component series into three separate boxes that were sold together in a larger box. I think it's the only DVD release by TVB that treats its component series as three distinct units that form one larger unit. DGSD '81 was also two separate series, but TVBI ran the DVDs together in one box like they're doing for THE BUND. The menus on DGSD '81, however, start the episode count over at # 1 when Part 2 begins, whereas the DVD menu for THE BUND treats the three series as one long 65-episode series (which it wasn't, originally).

[Trinie]

I think you are underestimating the negative effect of over-compression. 8 episodes per disc is simply unacceptable. The lack of detail you're describing might very well be the result of compression artifacts. A non-remastered source can be sort of dirty, but can still retain detail if the master tape is in good shape.

I have received my Tai Seng copy of LOCH in Vietnamese and I must say that I'm disappointed with the picture quality due to the heavy artifacts. I could see that the source was good, but the picture was ruined by over-compression. I'll do a review of the boxset when I'll be less lazy.


Chinese companies, especially Tai Seng, have a very hard time grasping the purist concept. It is a concept that seems extremely hard for them to understand.

I thought the picture quality for the LOCH VIet set by Taiseng was pretty good. But then again, I am easy going and am not the picky so I guess I am ok with it. I had a feeling that maybe you wouldn't be satisfied.

I don't think the Chinese companies don't realize that the over compression makes the picture quality worse. Have you seen any series in Chinese? I think they do know that but they just want to save discs and money, but still make a profit. I have heard that a lot of Chinese viewers(especially ones in HK) don't collect or buy series on DVD/VCD. THey just watch it on TV since it is broadcasted a lot. That's what my friend told me. She said that she could not find any DVD/VCD sets of any series in HK because the HK audience just did not buy them or collected them. Also, most people if they do buy them just watch it once and that's it. Therefore, as long as the picture quality is decent and watchable, they can careless. I buy both Chinese and Viet sets and must say that the Chinese sets have better quality and are cheaper, while the Viet sets have inferior quality and are more expensive.