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Thread: Would the HS and the DS have helped CMG in the battle against the Shaolin monks?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Would the HS and the DS have helped CMG in the battle against the Shaolin monks?

    Cheung Mo Gei fought the Shaolin Elders Do Geep, Do Ngan, and Do Ngak on three separate occassions while attempting to rescue his adoptive father, Golden-Haired Lion King Tse Tsun, from Shaolin's custody. During the first battle, Cheung Mo Gei singlehandedly fought the three monks empty-handed, and was fortunate to walk away with his life. The second time, Cheung Mo Gei was backed up by Ming Cult Left Herald of Light Yeung Siu and White-Browed Eagle King Yan Teen Sing. The three Ming Cultists used the cult's indestructible Holy Flame Scepters, which were blunt, against the Shaolin Elders. The battle resulted in Yan Teen Sing's death from exhaustion. The third time, Cheung Mo Gei was backed up by Ngor Mei Sect Leader Chow Chi Yerk, who used her Taoist duster (another blunt weapon). This time, Cheung Mo Gei was able to slip through the monks' defense, but again did not defeat them outright.

    The key to the Shaolin Elders' might was their formation, and the formation seemed to rely on the use of their soft weaponry (whips). In all three battles, no sharp weapons (i.e. swords, sabers) were used by either side. Kwun Lun Sect Leader Ho Tai Chung and his wife used swords when they tried to abduct Tse Tsun from Shaolin, but they were quickly defeated because their martial arts were far below that of the Shaolin Elders. If Cheung Mo Gei and his comrades had used the Heaven Sword and the Dragon Sabre against the Elders, however, would the results have been different? At the time, both weapons were conveniently (or inconveniently, if you're Cheung Mo Gei or one of his allies) unavailable because they had been dismantled and hidden by Chow Chi Yerk. Considering that the Heaven Sword and the Dragon Sabre were the sharpest weapons known to humankind at the time, then in the hands of such high-level fighters as Cheung Mo Gei or Yeung Siu, they should have been able to sever the Shaolin Elders' whips and at least temporarily disrupt their formation (probably long enough for Cheung Mo Gei to defeat them).

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    I think ZWJ would be able to match the 3 Shaolin elders at least if he had one of those weapons. Inner-power-wise, he was superior to the three of them combined. In that battle, he only lacked a good weapon to counter their three whips. Using your bare hands to fight these things isn't a great idea. ZWJ using Tai Chi sword with the HS would be interesting...
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    Senior Member - L1n -'s Avatar
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    it would be interesting if dy were to fight them, i wander if his linbuo is fast enough and i wonder will his unleash the 6 mai upon the 3 monks . that would be the greatest surprise of their lives messing woith hius 6 mai.

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    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    6msj would cut the whips into shreds.
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    atlantean0208
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    base on experience in fighting I don't think DY can defeat them, unless if all the three monk elders try to do something to WYY or his other girlfriend which is very unlikely consdering this is monk elders we're talking about who spend their life perfecting the formations

    DY 6MSJ only working when he is in Hulk mode, I means when he piss off at something, its not a think that he can summon at will anytime that he think he want to blast-off someone

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    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Originally posted by atlantean0208
    base on experience in fighting I don't think DY can defeat them, unless if all the three monk elders try to do something to WYY or his other girlfriend which is very unlikely consdering this is monk elders we're talking about who spend their life perfecting the formations

    DY 6MSJ only working when he is in Hulk mode, I means when he piss off at something, its not a think that he can summon at will anytime that he think he want to blast-off someone
    Well at the end of the novel I think he is already able to control his inner energy? :O
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    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    That's probably arguable whether or not DY mastered 6MSJ by the end of DGSD.

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    Default Would the Heaven Sword or Dragon Sabre have easily broken the Du Monk formation?

    I don't remember the whips being described as any special material, and Wuji with his huge inner strength and the Heaven Sword should be able to slice the whips to pieces easily. If he had it, would he have used it and broke the formation easily, or would he have some sort of qualm using it despite his godfather's life being on the line?

    He was always wishy washy and never wanted to take an advantage on anyone even if other people did it first, and even when super important things were on the line. At the end when the Xuan Ming elders nearly took his and ZM + ZZR's lives, he used the Dragon Sabre to gain an advantage and immediately put it away despite knowing they were despicable people.

    When the group of people attacked the Du Monks for the first time and were on the verge of defeating them, he could have broken the formation or simply rescued Xie Xun while they were busy. Instead, he actually helps them out even though it would put his godfather's life in danger!

    This feels more like a rant on how overly "honorable" Wuji is than the question topic, but he really is a dummy sometimes.

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I don't remember the whips being described as any special material, and Wuji with his huge inner strength and the Heaven Sword should be able to slice the whips to pieces easily. If he had it, would he have used it and broke the formation easily, or would he have some sort of qualm using it despite his godfather's life being on the line?

    He was always wishy washy and never wanted to take an advantage on anyone even if other people did it first, and even when super important things were on the line. At the end when the Xuan Ming elders nearly took his and ZM + ZZR's lives, he used the Dragon Sabre to gain an advantage and immediately put it away despite knowing they were despicable people.

    When the group of people attacked the Du Monks for the first time and were on the verge of defeating them, he could have broken the formation or simply rescued Xie Xun while they were busy. Instead, he actually helps them out even though it would put his godfather's life in danger!

    This feels more like a rant on how overly "honorable" Wuji is than the question topic, but he really is a dummy sometimes.
    Honourable was only part of it - he also had diplomacy to consider. He gave the impression he was doing everything he could to avoid antagonising Shaolin, and made every effort to win their favour and respect. Knowing how petty-minded Kong Wen and Kong Zhi could be (and rightly assuming the Dus were the same) I think he started off being as diplomatic as he could, and then just ended up capitalising on every opportunity he could to get into their good books. It worked, as everyone, including the Du monks, kind of loved him - although their duty ensured that he was no closer to rescuing Xie Xun. Xie Xun, Zhang Sanfeng and his Wudang uncles wouldn't have it any other way, though - that's the way they would have wanted him to approach things. He also had the reputation of the Ming cult to consider - after all that effort to patch things up with the orthodox sects, he wasn't about to throw it all away that easily - which was what Cheng Kun was also hoping he would do.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    Honourable was only part of it - he also had diplomacy to consider. He gave the impression he was doing everything he could to avoid antagonising Shaolin, and made every effort to win their favour and respect. Knowing how petty-minded Kong Wen and Kong Zhi could be (and rightly assuming the Dus were the same) I think he started off being as diplomatic as he could, and then just ended up capitalising on every opportunity he could to get into their good books. It worked, as everyone, including the Du monks, kind of loved him - although their duty ensured that he was no closer to rescuing Xie Xun. Xie Xun, Zhang Sanfeng and his Wudang uncles wouldn't have it any other way, though - that's the way they would have wanted him to approach things. He also had the reputation of the Ming cult to consider - after all that effort to patch things up with the orthodox sects, he wasn't about to throw it all away that easily - which was what Cheng Kun was also hoping he would do.
    That's also something that's overlooked about Cheung Mo Gei: as the leader of a *major* wulin organization (the Ming Cult), he had political concerns that Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor, who operated independently, never had to consider. Because he was the Leader of the Ming Cult, Cheung Mo Gei needed to bear in mind that his actions could backlash against countless people. Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor didn't need to concern themselves with such a problem.

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    He could, but he had neither sword nor sabre, so it is a moot point. In my opinion, I think he knew he had no hope of rescuing Xie Xun alone, so he was willing to bide his time and wait. His Godfather was probably in the safest place imaginable at the moment - Shaolin is supposedly foremost amongst the schools of martial arts.

    I'm not so sure about diplomacy, especially when it comes to his Godfather - the wedding fiasco seems to be a diplomatic disaster of the highest order. I think the issue is of Zhang Wuji wanting to accomplish his goals with minimum bloodshed.

    I think the backlash point is rather moot as well. Let's be honest, the Manichees were perfectly capable of taking Xie Xun by force if it had to with the flagged forces alone (never mind the professional armies of Zhu Yuanzhang and Xu Shouhui). For all the bluster that the six great schools had, their success owed more to the internal unrest amongst the Manichees than anything else. Once united under Zhang Wuji and revamped to remove its 'barbaric' aspects, it was a force that had no equal. If the Manichees were willing to go toe-to-toe with the Mongols, what is the dissent from the remnants of a Wulin it has conquered going to matter?

    Edit: Rereading the section in question, when the three Dus were holding off the group of eight during their initial appearance, Zhang Wuji did indeed take the opportunity to steal into the chamber where Xie Xun was held. However, Xie Xun actually refused to leave, even going so far as to stop Zhang Wuji from rescuing him. It is also explicitly mentioned that Zhang did not wish to take advantage of the Dus' moment of peril to take care of them once and for all (again, chivalry and all that), so he went looking for his Godfather instead.
    Last edited by Foolworm; 01-27-13 at 07:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    Honourable was only part of it - he also had diplomacy to consider. He gave the impression he was doing everything he could to avoid antagonising Shaolin, and made every effort to win their favour and respect. Knowing how petty-minded Kong Wen and Kong Zhi could be (and rightly assuming the Dus were the same) I think he started off being as diplomatic as he could, and then just ended up capitalising on every opportunity he could to get into their good books. It worked, as everyone, including the Du monks, kind of loved him - although their duty ensured that he was no closer to rescuing Xie Xun. Xie Xun, Zhang Sanfeng and his Wudang uncles wouldn't have it any other way, though - that's the way they would have wanted him to approach things. He also had the reputation of the Ming cult to consider - after all that effort to patch things up with the orthodox sects, he wasn't about to throw it all away that easily - which was what Cheng Kun was also hoping he would do.
    It's kind of amusing how most of the story is focused on wulin affairs and how he had to create peace within the sects and such, but when it came down to it, the actual wulin proved itself more or less useless. At the time of the Shaolin meeting, the Ming sect already had millions of people in their army. There was no need to be diplomatic or overly nice.

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    It's kind of amusing how most of the story is focused on wulin affairs and how he had to create peace within the sects and such, but when it came down to it, the actual wulin proved itself more or less useless. At the time of the Shaolin meeting, the Ming sect already had millions of people in their army. There was no need to be diplomatic or overly nice.
    He didn't really need to from a numerical superiority point of view, but from a cultural point of view it was essential. The Ming cult wasn't just a wulin force, it was the army of a new nation, and had to concern itself with national interests in fighting the Yuan Dynasty. If all these Han Chinese peasants who signed up to free their country from Mongolian oppression were suddenly asked to raze Shaolin, one of the symbols of Han Chinese culture in China, to the ground just to satisfy the personal agenda of their cult leader, it would be a PR blunder which would not go down well with everyone.

    Wuji was also not just head of the Ming cult, he was a disciple of Wudang, son of Zhang Cuishan and follower of Zhang Sanfeng. His actions represented not just the will of the Ming cult, but also the actions of a son of Wudang, and there's no way Zhang Sanfeng, Song Yuanqiao or Yu Lianzhou would have taken advantage of the situation either. The five orthodox sects were not his enemies in the same way Wudang wasn't - they were all in a truce (albeit an uneasy one) in which they were going to unite against the Yuan government. Cheng Kun was hoping to use Xie Xun to drive a wedge between the wulin sects, and if Wuji decided to just forget being nice and use pure muscle, of course he would have succeeded (at least, he would have been able to recover Xie Xun's corpse from the ashes of Shaolin), but he would have fallen into Cheng Kun's trap, and all parties involved would have been poorer for that. People don't have to be mean just because they can - in Chinese we say don't use all the wind just because you have it.

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    He should have been more firm with his demands. The 3 Du monks already acknowledged that Cheng Kun/Yuanzhen was the true mastermind behind all of Xie Xun's actions, but waved it off as they had to protect Shaolin's reputation. What about the injustice of the matter?

    At that point Wuji should have just demonstrated the might of the Ming Sect and gave them an ultimatum to at the least disclose Yuanzhen's crimes and take some responsibility for it -- I would go so far as to just demand a release or be crushed. If they really want to shirk all responsibility and let Xie Xun take all the blame and fight to the bitter end, well that's a dumb choice that they shouldn't be making and they deserve what's coming to them.

    At that point, even if there was a wedge in wulin, it would hardly matter. All of wulin seem to be worth less than a couple tens of thousands of troops. The Ming Sect had millions already, so falling into Cheng Kun's "trap" wouldn't be that detrimental. It is at least partly true that Shaolin is harboring a Yuan spy.

    Shaolin was in the wrong with regards to holding a man they now know is at least partly innocent. And within wulin code, if someone is holding your godfather captive, that is plenty of reason to rightfully threaten aggression.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    He should have been more firm with his demands. The 3 Du monks already acknowledged that Cheng Kun/Yuanzhen was the true mastermind behind all of Xie Xun's actions, but waved it off as they had to protect Shaolin's reputation. What about the injustice of the matter?

    At that point Wuji should have just demonstrated the might of the Ming Sect and gave them an ultimatum to at the least disclose Yuanzhen's crimes and take some responsibility for it -- I would go so far as to just demand a release or be crushed. If they really want to shirk all responsibility and let Xie Xun take all the blame and fight to the bitter end, well that's a dumb choice that they shouldn't be making and they deserve what's coming to them.

    At that point, even if there was a wedge in wulin, it would hardly matter. All of wulin seem to be worth less than a couple tens of thousands of troops. The Ming Sect had millions already, so falling into Cheng Kun's "trap" wouldn't be that detrimental. It is at least partly true that Shaolin is harboring a Yuan spy.

    Shaolin was in the wrong with regards to holding a man they now know is at least partly innocent. And within wulin code, if someone is holding your godfather captive, that is plenty of reason to rightfully threaten aggression.
    I think that Cheung Mo Gei was seeking the solution that would result in the least amount of needless bloodshed, which is consistent with his character. Deliberately causing a bloodbath just wouldn't be in character for him at all.

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    He should have realized that all the power lay with him, and there would be no bloodbath if he was firm with his negotiations. He had a hundred times the strength of Shaolin and had dirt on them that Yuanzhen was a Yuan spy operating under Shaolin for the past 30 years, causing countless wulin conflicts.

    If he were more experienced and capable of reading the situation, he should know that Shaolin has no leverage and would be forced to release Xie Xun without a fight. I mean, the Five Flags and the top Ming Sect masters could be busy in various parts of China fighting Yuan soldiers, but instead they have to trek all the way to Shaolin and waste countless days just because they're being stubborn and obstinate. If that is the way they want to go down, then they dug their own grave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    He should have realized that all the power lay with him, and there would be no bloodbath if he was firm with his negotiations. He had a hundred times the strength of Shaolin and had dirt on them that Yuanzhen was a Yuan spy operating under Shaolin for the past 30 years, causing countless wulin conflicts.

    If he were more experienced and capable of reading the situation, he should know that Shaolin has no leverage and would be forced to release Xie Xun without a fight. I mean, the Five Flags and the top Ming Sect masters could be busy in various parts of China fighting Yuan soldiers, but instead they have to trek all the way to Shaolin and waste countless days just because they're being stubborn and obstinate. If that is the way they want to go down, then they dug their own grave.
    I think that would have been an extremely risky gamble: this was *wulin*. When faced with loss of face, Shaolin's monks might have chosen to take the violent way out (we've seen them do that before, not only in HSDS but in other stories), as members of the wulin community (particularly members of large sects) are wont to do when pushed into a corner. Moreover, the other sects would not let a Ming Cult attack on Shaolin go unchallenged or unavenged (not so much because they had any love for Shaolin, because they'd all be scared to death that if they didn't nip this in the bud, THEY'D be next).

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    He should have realized that all the power lay with him, and there would be no bloodbath if he was firm with his negotiations. He had a hundred times the strength of Shaolin and had dirt on them that Yuanzhen was a Yuan spy operating under Shaolin for the past 30 years, causing countless wulin conflicts.

    If he were more experienced and capable of reading the situation, he should know that Shaolin has no leverage and would be forced to release Xie Xun without a fight. I mean, the Five Flags and the top Ming Sect masters could be busy in various parts of China fighting Yuan soldiers, but instead they have to trek all the way to Shaolin and waste countless days just because they're being stubborn and obstinate. If that is the way they want to go down, then they dug their own grave.
    Again, it is important to note that when the three Dus were holding off the group of eight during their initial appearance, Zhang Wuji did indeed take the opportunity to steal into the chamber where Xie Xun was held. However, Xie Xun actually refused to leave, even going so far as to stop Zhang Wuji from rescuing him.

    I quote: 張無忌越聽越急,大聲道:「義父,你不肯走,我可要用強了。」說著轉過身來,抓住謝遜雙手,便往自己背上一 負。 [...] 張無忌持住謝遜雙腿,正要起步,突然後心「大椎穴」一麻,卻是被謝遜拿住了穴道,雙手無力,只 得放開了他。

    In english: "Zhang Wuji was anxious, and yelled: "Godfather, if you won't leave I'll have to use force." He turned around, grabbed Xie Xun's hands and piggy-backed him. [...] Zhang held Xie Xun's legs and was about to take off when he felt his "Dazhui Yue" go numb - Xie Xun had pressed it. His (Zhang) hands went limp and he was forced to release him (Xie).

    The whole issue could have been averted if Xie Xun let himself be rescued at that point, but he chose to stay.

    Moreover, are the three Dus really going to let Xie Xun go simply because he was harmed by Cheng Kun at some point? Xie Xun admitted he had killed several times as many people in return, many whom had no business being involved. Then there are the people he killed to lay his hands on the Tulongdao. What of them? The problem was that Xie Xun never told anyone about his past - all the Wulin knows is that he suddenly went berserk and started murdering people for no good reason. Even if they knew, what then? If Xie Xun didn't divest himself of all his martial arts after the climatic duel with Cheng Kun, odds are that people would be queueing up to throw down with him.

    Furthermore, from the Dus' point of view, the testimony Zhang Wuji offers is extremely weak - for all they knew, he could be making all of it up. Even if Cheng Kun came out to kill him afterwards, what of it? He is the leader of the Manichees, Public Enemy No. 1! (Xie Xun notwithstanding) That they are willing to consider his point of view is extremely generous.

    Moreover, it is not their job to judge Cheng Kun - that is for the council of elders. Their role is to guard Xie Xun, and they gave their assurance to Zhang Wuji that they would do so.

    Finally, it is important to note that the Five Flags and the various top echelons of the Manichaeans answer to the Cult Leader, and him alone. Whether they should fight against the Mongols is another story - that role is left to the professional armies of Zhu Yuanzhang and Xu Shouhui. The Manichaeans are a religious organization, and their leader's word is law. If Zhang Wuji tells them to attend the Tushi Dahui, they jolly well attend.
    Last edited by Foolworm; 01-28-13 at 04:29 PM.

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