Yang Guo vs. Ling Hu Chong

[Guo Xiang]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by anatoly_karpov:
<STRONG>Ok what about O Yeung Fung vs. Hung Chut Kong?</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't know why Kieu is so sure GJ would win over HYS. He doesnt even give reasons to back it up.

I think OYF and HQG are equal.

[Ren Wo Xing]

GJ should easily be able to beat HYS. Remember, by the time of LOCH ending, he was already equal to the Greats. Personally, I'd think that with all those extra years of Jiu Ying Zhen Jing, plus his youth compared to HYS, should put him in a much better position.

Now, GJ vs. ZBT...that'd be interesting <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

[5haDow NemisiS]

Well, OYF could beat H7G and HYS after he "learned" the messed-up version of 9 Negations. But I'm pretty sure GJ after learning the real 9 negations could beat OYF up. I really don't know about GJ vs Chow Bat Tong, but that'd be pretty interesting...

[Meh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">GJ should easily be able to beat HYS. Remember, by the time of LOCH ending, he was already equal to the Greats. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's incorrect. GJ was nowhere near the level of the greats at the end of LOCH. Surviving 300 moves against HYS and H7G hardly means that they're equal in terms of ability.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Well, OYF could beat H7G and HYS after he "learned" the messed-up version of 9 Negations. But I'm pretty sure GJ after learning the real 9 negations could beat OYF up. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

OYF could not beat the other greats after he learnt the messed up 9 Yin. It's just that his style of fighting really caught H7G off guard. But in terms of pure kung fu, the messed up 9 Yin caused him to regress.

OYF and H7G are equal in LOCH. This is VERY clear when they duked it out at Peach Flower Island during the whole marriage thing.

IMO, GJ and HYS are roughly equal for the duration of ROCH.

[Han Solo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Meh:
<STRONG>
IMO, GJ and HYS are roughly equal for the duration of ROCH.</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMO, GJ has probably surpased HYS, certainly by the middle of ROCH. Remember that GJ at this time had already master 9 Yin, L/R technique, Hung Ming and Hung Lung 18 palms.
HYS probably does not advance as much... as a result by the end of ROCH, he probably is at best equal to and at worst, worst than YG.

[anatoly_karpov]

Why is he called Hung 7 kong?

[Arisa]

hong qigong is his name (or as he claimed, hes the number seven, qi means seven in chinese) so hung 7 kong (i think thats the cantonese spelling)

[someguy44]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Han Solo:
<STRONG>

IMO, GJ has probably surpased HYS, certainly by the middle of ROCH. Remember that GJ at this time had already master 9 Yin, L/R technique, Hung Ming and Hung Lung 18 palms.
HYS probably does not advance as much... as a result by the end of ROCH, he probably is at best equal to and at worst, worst than YG.</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>


You can make that claim for GJ at the end of those 16 years (or near the end of ROCH), but not in the middle. They are more or less just equals. Remember GJ fought AYF to a tie and match 3 palms with GLFW without any real advantage to one fighter or the other and all this happened in the beginning and middle of ROCH.

However, GJ did nothing in terms of fighting top fighters after the 16 year seperation of YG and SLL so it's impossible to tell how much GJ had improved or if he improved at all!

Mastering many kinds of kung fu means diddly squad for it's the user that matters more than the kung fu when you look at it as a whole. Also, did you know that GJ was said to have master all of Peach Blossom Island's kung fus as well?

And there's no way GJ could be worst than YG (I see them as virtually tie, but after the 16 years, GJ could be a hell lot better. However, since there is no evidence to support this, I just see those 2 as virtual equals).

YG tie HYS when they fought after the 16 years so how can you say GJ is much better than HYS, but at best tie with YG or even lose to him??? This completely contradicts what you said. Although, YG's sad palms won over HYS's "Lok Eng Sun Kim Jeung", HYS equalized himself to YG's best kung fu "the sad palms" with his best kung fu in "the flicking fingers".

[Yun_Feiyang]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by someguy44:
<STRONG>


You can make that claim for GJ at the end of those 16 years (or near the end of ROCH), but not in the middle. They are more or less just equals. Remember GJ fought AYF to a tie and match 3 palms with GLFW without any real advantage to one fighter or the other and all this happened in the beginning and middle of ROCH.

However, GJ did nothing in terms of fighting top fighters after the 16 year seperation of YG and SLL so it's impossible to tell how much GJ had improved or if he improved at all!

Mastering many kinds of kung fu means diddly squad for it's the user that matters more than the kung fu when you look at it as a whole. Also, did you know that GJ was said to have master all of Peach Blossom Island's kung fus as well?

And there's no way GJ could be worst than YG (I see them as virtually tie, but after the 16 years, GJ could be a hell lot better. However, since there is no evidence to support this, I just see those 2 as virtual equals).

YG tie HYS when they fought after the 16 years so how can you say GJ is much better than HYS, but at best tie with YG or even lose to him??? This completely contradicts what you said. Although, YG's sad palms won over HYS's "Lok Eng Sun Kim Jeung", HYS equalized himself to YG's best kung fu "the sad palms" with his best kung fu in "the flicking fingers".</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, Yang Guo defeated Huang Yaoshi with his 'Palm of Gloom'. Its in the novel.

Can Yang Guo defeat Guo Jing? Probably. I would say that YG has greater internal energy after learning Dugu swordplay.

But more importantly, its actually implied in the novel that YG can defeat GJ. Its a fact that Huang Yaoshi, Ouyang Feng and Hong Qigong are equal in kung fu. Guo Jing at his peak cannot defeat Ouyang Feng. Since YG defeated HYS, he can also defeat Ouyang Feng and thus he can also defeat GJ.

Conclusion, YG's 'palm of gloom' better than GJ's 'dragon-subduing palms'.

<IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

[Yun_Feiyang]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by 5haDow NemisiS:
<STRONG>Without doubt it would be Yeung Gor...
I mean I know that everyone likes LHC, but you can't really compare them as they fight. Sure LHC has DuGu 9 Swords, XiXinDaFa and the qi boost thing he was given from the Abbot. But Yeung Gor has his iron sword and love palm. The iron sword is actually what DuGu later mastered, after his own DuGu 9 Swords. I think that Dung Fang Bu Bai wouldn't stand much of a chance against Yeung Gor either...</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Jing Yong gave an interview in which he specifically said the 18 Palms was better than the Sad Palms.

[Yun_Feiyang]

Really? Which interview? When and where?

Is there a weblink?

[Ren Wo Xing]

Don't have the direct link, but it was brought up several times in several different threads. However, from what I recall, it wasn't a power issue, but more of a consistency issue.

[Yun_Feiyang]

Ok, I see what you are saying.

Yes, YG's 'palm of gloom' is at its peak only when he's feeling really depressed whereas GJ's 'dragon palms' don't really depend on his emotional state.

The point I was making was that YG's 'palm of gloom', when effectively applied, will defeat GJ. That's what's implied in the novel. (Read my analysis in earlier post.)

[Athena]

I really wanted to stay out of these discussions, But....

Yang Guo's internal energy is not more powerful than Yang Guo. According to the novel Yang Guo himself felt that masters like Guo Jing, reverends Yideng and Jueyuan had more internal power.
Also reverend Yideng thought although Yang Guo had strong internal strength but it wasn't as refined as his own. (Yang Guo roaring forcing Yinggu out).

Also when it comes to palm techniques "The 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms" are number 1 in the Jin Yong wuxia universe.

[TigerWong]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Yang Guo's internal energy is not more powerful than Yang Guo.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you meant to say Yang Guo's internal energy is not more powerful than Guo Jing?

These YG vs. GJ debates never gets resolved, but I agree that Yang Guo should not be more powerful than Guo Jing. Tied at best. YG could barely hold his own against Zhao Bak Tung, and WYS (whom I wouldn't go so far as to say was defeated by YG) only implied that the Sad Palms were comparable to 18 Dragon Palms, not better.

[Yun_Feiyang]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Athena:
<STRONG>I really wanted to stay out of these discussions, But....

Yang Guo's internal energy is not more powerful than Yang Guo. According to the novel Yang Guo himself felt that masters like Guo Jing, reverends Yideng and Jueyuan had more internal power. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Come on, isn't the guy allowed to be humble?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">
Also reverend Yideng thought although Yang Guo had strong internal strength but it wasn't as refined as his own. (Yang Guo roaring forcing Yinggu out). </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

'Not as refined' does not mean 'less powerful'. Besides the argument here concerns YG and GJ only. King Duan/Yideng is in a league of his own.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">
Also when it comes to palm techniques "The 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms" are number 1 in the Jin Yong wuxia universe.</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nowhere in Jin Yong's novels did he make this assertion.

[Yun_Feiyang]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by TigerWong:
<STRONG>

These YG vs. GJ debates never gets resolved, but I agree that Yang Guo should not be more powerful than Guo Jing. Tied at best. YG could barely hold his own against Zhao Bak Tung, </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do you mean? YG did not fight Zhao Bak Tung after he mastered the 'Palm of Gloom'. Zhao would not have been his match.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">
and WYS (whom I wouldn't go so far as to say was defeated by YG) only implied that the Sad Palms were comparable to 18 Dragon Palms, not better.</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

WYS's probably biased towards Guo Jing. Anyway, his comments are not Jin Yong's. YG did defeat HYS, its clearly stated in the novel. Have you read the novel?

And as far YG and GJ, how do you explain my analysis earlier. I quote it again in his full for your benefit.

"Can Yang Guo defeat Guo Jing? Probably. I would say that YG has greater internal energy after learning Dugu swordplay.

But more importantly, its actually implied in the novel that YG can defeat GJ. Its a fact that Huang Yaoshi, Ouyang Feng and Hong Qigong are equal in kung fu. Guo Jing at his peak cannot defeat Ouyang Feng. Since YG defeated HYS, he can also defeat Ouyang Feng and thus he can also defeat GJ.

Conclusion, YG's 'palm of gloom' better than GJ's 'dragon-subduing palms'."

Please answer directly on point. Thanks.

[Meh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">What do you mean? YG did not fight Zhao Bak Tung after he mastered the 'Palm of Gloom'. Zhao would not have been his match. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">WYS's probably biased towards Guo Jing. Anyway, his comments are not Jin Yong's. YG did defeat HYS, its clearly stated in the novel. Have you read the novel? </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

A better question is, have YOU read the novel? I have never bothered to read ROCH in detail because I found it boring, yet even *I* remember the fight between Yang Guo and Zhou Buo Tong(after he mastered his Sad Palm). It's in chapter 34 in case you want to double check.

[TristeCoeur]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">But more importantly, its actually implied in the novel that YG can defeat GJ. Its a fact that Huang Yaoshi, Ouyang Feng and Hong Qigong are equal in kung fu. Guo Jing at his peak cannot defeat Ouyang Feng. Since YG defeated HYS, he can also defeat Ouyang Feng and thus he can also defeat GJ.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

The fight in the Mongolian camp (ROCH) shows that Guo Jing has mastered the level of 18 Dragon Palms that even his sifu Hong 7 Gong could never reach/dream of (it was actually said so in the novel).

When GJ fought Ouyang Feng at the beginning of ROCH, it was when he was 33 or so. He wasn't at his peak then.