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Thread: Yang Guo vs. Ling Hu Chong

  1. #61
    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Juliet:
    <STRONG>YG's skill increased after 16 years because he developed 'the sad palms'. He was extremely depressed during the period of separation and this enabled him to use his grief to develop the 'sad palms.'

    There's no mention that GJ developed any new skill since the beginning of ROCH. Besides, he was too preoccupied with other affairs like defending the country. Its extremely doubtful that he would have spent much time on his skills.
    Your reasoning is based on emotions, not logic.</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Developing new skills are not equivalent to being stronger. There was probably no value in developing new skills if mastering or continuing the refinement of unique skills such as the HL18palm will bring more reward in terms of increasing the efficiency of attack by improving technique, or by cultivating inner powers to deliver stronger attack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss
    I think they're probably at the same level as or one level below Ah Qing, which is about the level of a 2nd or 3rd generation Quan Zhen disciple.
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  2. #62
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Juliet:
    <STRONG>There's no mention that GJ developed any new skill since the beginning of ROCH. Besides, he was too preoccupied with other affairs like defending the country. Its extremely doubtful that he would have spent much time on his skills.
    </STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This argument again. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    Here's Kenny's take on it a few months back. Not that he must be right but since hes already addressed this much more eloquently than I can, I might as well post it up..

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"Regarding whether or not defending the city of Xiang Yang in those 16 years would slow down GJ's development as a fighter, it's best to consider everything that GJ had to go through in LoCH. It would be a great exercise and a review of our knowledge in JY novels to list all the major tasks that were given to GJ in the few months following the time he left Mongolia, tasks that could very well hinder his strength improvement:

    - To search for the person who's responsible for the death of his father. He finally found him, got his revenge, but in the process he realized the one who's REALLY responsible was another person, so he had to search again.

    - To search for the military strategy manual Wu Mu Yi Shu, and to have to find it before the Jins could, knowing that if this particular manual fell in the wrong hand, the very existence of his home country would be threatened.

    - To get himself seriously injured. In 99% of all cases, a fighter would undoubtedly be weaken significantly when he's seriously injured, but in GJ's case, it worked out well for him because of the help of 9 Yin Zhen Jing. In his case, he ended up even stronger than before he suffered the injury, but who can say for certain that, if he had dedicated as much time in studying/practicing from 9 Yin while being HEALTHY, he wouldn't have benefited from 9 Yin as much as he did in the novel?

    - To run away from the Iron Set Palm leader/members, and to carry Huang Rong to the South Emperor to cure the injury she suffered from Qiu Qian Ren.

    - Of all the events that happened to him in LoCH, the one that's probably most harmful to him (mentally and emotionally) was to learn of his teachers' deaths. Finding out that 5 of the most important and influential persons in his life had been brutally murdered certainly had a negative effect on his development. As Huang Rong noted, if he could not handle his emotion carefully, it could very well lead to serious internal injury for him. In the best case, the trauma and grief from this event would definitely hinder his development in inner power in the near future, since practicing inner power generally requires the highest level of mental concentration.

    This is just to name a few events that he had to go through. Feel free to expand it as you find suitable.

    These were the events that happened to GJ in the few months following his first meeting with Yang Kang, at the time when GJ was noticeably weaker than YK as a fighter, (although the first fight between them ended almost in a draw due to GJ's perseverance.) But yet in a short period of just six months following this said first meeting, despite having to go through each of the events I listed and more, he improved from being someone weaker than YK to the 7th strongest fighter in the novel! (Behind Zhou Bo Tong, the 4 surviving Greats, and Qiu Qian Ren.) It is amazing for anyone to improve this quickly even under a completely safe and healthy environment, for GJ to show such improvement while facing all these obstacles was no less than unbelievable.

    Certainly, he did dedicate much of his time in improving Xiang Yang's defense, but we do know from RoCH that Xiang Yang was not under constant attacks from the Mongolians. There were times when the Mongolians had to retreat, reorganize, regroup, and replenish their supply, (food, medical, etc.,) and for an army of such large size as the Mongolians, such things would require at least months before they could attack again. It's highly doubtful that GJ, on average over the period of those 16 years, was as busy as he had been in those few months in the middle part of LoCH. Given that, the idea that GJ would not have improved because he was too busy defending the city is hardly convincing, when there is precedent to suggest that GJ could improve and improve quickly despite facing tough challenges and obstacles!" - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    <font size="1">[ April 01, 2003: Message edited by: TigerWong ]</font>

  3. #63
    Member Acidbeastonfire's Avatar
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    WOW....looks like the mother of all debates started again.

    Not gonna comment as i hv not read LOCH nor ROCH. Still depending on translations from kind souls here. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

    Discussions like this is bound to get heated due to the degree of passion each reader has towards their fav character in the condor trilogy. Its ok to put the case across for GJ, YG, GWM, HYS, OYF or who ever u think is the best fighter (very subjective), lets just not get too carried away ok (by that i mean forcing opinions down other people's throat of distastefully disparaging & brushing aside other people's opinions.

    Still...its quiet enlightening whenever i go thru threads like this. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">
    "Man is his own star; and the soul that can
    Render an honest and a perfect man,
    Commands all light, all influence, all fate;
    Nothing to him falls early or too late.
    Our acts our angels are, or good or ill,
    Our fatal shadows that walk by us still."

  4. #64
    Senior Member Allen D's Avatar
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    how about we just say this. guo jing is a better fighter than yang guo. but when yang guo is really sad, he can beat or be equal with guo jing. now can we go back to the original topic
    Formerly DuGu Qiu Bai

  5. #65
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    I neither care who's stronger nor which is better; the only reason I'm posting is because of the specious reasoning behind their conclusion that in 16 years of practicing martial arts, Guo Jing didn't get better. Whether he got better but was weaker than YG, better but equal to YG, better and superior to YG, I don't care. But it's ridiculous to assume that after 16 full years, he didn't improve at all.
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

  6. #66
    Member Acidbeastonfire's Avatar
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    ok ok...after reading thru the entire thread, there r 2 things i'm certain abt;

    1. No clear conclusion can be made abt YG vs GJ unless we get it fr the horse's mouth (JY). All arguments based on the books are very subjective & no one can claim nor demand their argument to be universally accepted.

    2. Yun FeiYang...u hv some interesting arguments but the manner which u put those arguments across & ur rebutals to others are short of civility. I'm not sure how good u r with ur karate, but if this is the way u handle differences in opinions in real life, a lot of people may be nursing bloodied noses but u'll be nursing misery from lack of friends. Don't bother to reply - i dont think u give a hoot.

    To other readers, sincere apologies if my tone or language is too harsh.
    "Man is his own star; and the soul that can
    Render an honest and a perfect man,
    Commands all light, all influence, all fate;
    Nothing to him falls early or too late.
    Our acts our angels are, or good or ill,
    Our fatal shadows that walk by us still."

  7. #67
    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
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    To Yun_Feiyang:

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> Why? I thought we were all just having a friendly discussion... </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    We are indeed.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> You just answered your own question. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I didn't ask anything. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> Open to interpretation and not conclusive. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    True, but the same goes for your arguments.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> YG would have defeated Huang if the fight was in deadly earnest. You don't really believe the 'snapping finger' technique can compare to YG or GJ's palm skills do you? </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I PERSONALLY believe that Yang Guo is indeed capable of defeating Huang Yaoshi, yeah. But there's a big difference between ASSUMING he can defeat Huang Yaoshi and CLAIMING he did defeat Huang Yaoshi (what you did).

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> Thanks for pointing this out.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Don't mention it.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> Is this a fact or merely your opinion? What skills did HYS develop and when did he develop them? How do you know he actually developed any skill during the 18 years? For all we know, he could have been eating potato chips and drinking beer and watching tv for the entire 18 years. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    With your reasoning, Guo Jing was equal to the Greats (thus including Huang Yaoshi) during the first half of ROCH. Golden Wheel Monk and Guo Jing were also more or less equal during the first parts of the novel. Sixteen years later, Golden Wheel Monk's power grew tremendously after having recahed the Tenth Stage of his Dragon Elephant Wisdom Skill. If Huang Yaoshi did nothing but "eating potato chips and drinking beer and watching tv for the entire 18 years" he would have been no match for Golden Wheel Monk. Yet in Loveless Valley the awesome power of his snapping finger technique made the wheel in the monk's hand shudder.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> Maybe, maybe not. Irrelevant to present discussion about YG and GJ. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Irrelevant? Not at all. In the novel it was stated that Guo Jing's palm skills had surpassed his own teacher Hong Qigong. This was not long after Hong's death. So during that time, Hong and Huang Yaoshi were still equals. Guo Jing is better than Hong Qigong, so he is automatically better than Huang Yaoshi as well. Now you said:
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> But more importantly, its actually implied in the novel that YG can defeat GJ. Its a fact that Huang Yaoshi, Ouyang Feng and Hong Qigong are equal in kung fu. Guo Jing at his peak cannot defeat Ouyang Feng. Since YG defeated HYS, he can also defeat Ouyang Feng and thus he can also defeat GJ. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Now it is clear that your reasoning is not really sound.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> You do agree that Golden Wheel Monk's skills at the Mongolian camp is inferior to his skills 16 years later don't you? If GJ had difficulty defeating him then, GJ would not stand a chance 16 years later. And you said YG defeated the monk 16 years later. What does this show? YG at the end was better than GJ in skill. Thanks for helping me illustrate my point. You are right to say that we don't know GJ's level of skill at the end and since we don't know, we can't assume that he has improved. Like HYS, he could have been eating potato chips and watching tv during that time. For all we know, his skill level may have actually decreased. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Guo Jing and Huang Rong are husband and wife. They lived together for the entire 16 years defending Xiangyang City. They faced the same troubles and they were both busy handling the same things. Sixteen years before, Huang Rong was absolutely no match for Golden Wheel Monk. Yet 16 years later in Loveless Valley when Huang Rong attacked Golden Wheel Monk she showed her martial arts progress during all these years. She still can' defeat Golden Wheel Monk of course, but she did improve. Now, if Huang Rong improved, how come her husband didn't?

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> If I tell you that my karate skills can beat the hell out of you, then you should take offense. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I wouldn't take offense, only those who are insecure would do that. With my 10 years of experience in Hung Gar, my Wing Chun and Choy Li Fut training plus the little bit of Bajiquan I learned in Taiwan, I feel confident enough for a friendly match with you. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">
    對 敵 須 狠 , 斬 草 除 根 , 男 女 老 幼 , 不 留 一 人

  8. #68
    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
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    To Ren Wo Xing:

    Yes, you're right. My thoughts exactly. I mean, maybe Yang Guo could beat the crap out of Guo Jing by the end of ROCH, how would I know? It's possible. But I just don't like people claiming that it is the undeniable truth.

    To Acidbeastonfire:

    Agreed!
    對 敵 須 狠 , 斬 草 除 根 , 男 女 老 幼 , 不 留 一 人

  9. #69
    Senior Member Yun_Feiyang's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Juliet:
    <STRONG>Yun Feiyang is correct here.

    Yang Guo will defeat Guo Jing at the end of ROCH. His analysis is accurate. There's no mention that Guo Jing's skills have improved since the beginning of ROCH.

    GJ could not defeat the monk 16 years ago and definitely cannot defeat the monk 16 years later. Therefore, by the same token, he also cannot defeat YG.</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Thanks for your support. Your reasoning is intelligent, objective and logical. Glad to know that there are at least a few here with a head on their shoulders.
    Julien Chang

  10. #70
    Senior Member Yun_Feiyang's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Laviathan:
    <STRONG>To Ren Wo Xing:

    Yes, you're right. My thoughts exactly. I mean, maybe Yang Guo could beat the crap out of Guo Jing by the end of ROCH, how would I know? It's possible. But I just don't like people claiming that it is the undeniable truth.
    </STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No one's claiming that its the 'undeniable truth'. We are just expressing our opinions. At least we are consistent. Your posts are incoherent and badly written.

    Do you or don't you think YG can beat GJ? Make up your mind.
    Julien Chang

  11. #71
    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
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    To Yun_Feiyang:

    You wrote:
    " No one's claiming that its the 'undeniable truth'. We are just expressing our opinions."

    Yet you also wrote:
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> No, Yang Guo defeated Huang Yaoshi with his 'Palm of Gloom'. Its in the novel. (WILD CLAIM 1)

    Guo Jing at his peak cannot defeat Ouyang Feng. (WILD CLAIM 2)
    Since YG defeated HYS, he can also defeat Ouyang Feng and thus he can also defeat GJ. (WILD CLAIM 3)

    Conclusion, YG's 'palm of gloom' better than GJ's 'dragon-subduing palms'. (WILD CLAIM 4) </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yun_Feiyang: "At least we are consistent."

    I think you are mistaking stuborness with consistency...

    Yun_Feiyang: "Your posts are incoherent and badly written."

    So true, so surely you can think of something to counter my arguments...?

    Yun_Feiyang: "Do you or don't you think YG can beat GJ? Make up your mind."

    Why should I? I honestly don't know for sure, but I personally think Guo Jing is somewhat superior to Yang Guo. That's just my own opinion and I won't try to convince others that it is correct.

    Now for my "incoherent and badly written" analysis, I quote it again in his full for your benefit.:

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> With your reasoning, Guo Jing was equal to the Greats (thus including Huang Yaoshi) during the first half of ROCH. Golden Wheel Monk and Guo Jing were also more or less equal during the first parts of the novel. Sixteen years later, Golden Wheel Monk's power grew tremendously after having recahed the Tenth Stage of his Dragon Elephant Wisdom Skill. If Huang Yaoshi did nothing but "eating potato chips and drinking beer and watching tv for the entire 18 years" he would have been no match for Golden Wheel Monk. Yet in Loveless Valley the awesome power of his snapping finger technique made the wheel in the monk's hand shudder.

    In the novel it was stated that Guo Jing's palm skills had surpassed his own teacher Hong Qigong. This was not long after Hong's death. So during that time, Hong and Huang Yaoshi were still equals. Guo Jing is better than Hong Qigong, so he is automatically better than Huang Yaoshi as well.

    Guo Jing and Huang Rong are husband and wife. They lived together for the entire 16 years defending Xiangyang City. They faced the same troubles and they were both busy handling the same things. Sixteen years before, Huang Rong was absolutely no match for Golden Wheel Monk. Yet 16 years later in Loveless Valley when Huang Rong attacked Golden Wheel Monk she showed her martial arts progress during all these years. She still can' defeat Golden Wheel Monk of course, but she did improve. Now, if Huang Rong improved, how come her husband didn't?
    </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Please answer directly on point. Thanks.
    對 敵 須 狠 , 斬 草 除 根 , 男 女 老 幼 , 不 留 一 人

  12. #72
    Senior Member TristeCoeur's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Yun_Feiyang:
    <STRONG>

    Thanks for your support. Your reasoning is intelligent, objective and logical. Glad to know that there are at least a few here with a head on their shoulders.</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Nice chest-thumping <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

    Seriously, get off your high horse <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> You say that we're just discussing opinions, yet you seem to show that (perhaps because of wording) your arguments/opinions are the only accurate/logical ones and are above all... That's the worst way to participate and win a debate.

    I'd want to say something about this GJ vs YG, however Laviathan has put it much more eloquently than I ever could. So let's see what you have to counter his points <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> (and again, get off that high horse).
    • Discussion: the confusion of one person multiplied by the number present.
    • Discussion Forum: the place where everybody posts, nobody reads and everybody disagrees later on.

  13. #73
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Some notes on the death of the Golden Wheel Monk:

    This one should probably best be described as a team-effort by Yeung Gor and Chow Bak Tung, with Yeung Gor doing most of the "heavy lifting" and benefitting from a moment of "shock and awe" (to borrow a term from the U.S. military) on the Golden Wheel Monk's part. For most of the fight, Yeung Gor was not doing particularly well against the Golden Wheel Monk, and he regretted not having the Heavy Iron Sword with him to balance out the Golden Wheel Monk's power advantage. When sadness over the possibility of dying and losing Little Dragon Girl came over him, Yeung Gor was able to generate a maximum power Sad Palm blow against the Golden Wheel Monk, who was *not* expecting it and hence, got knocked off the burning tower where he and Yeung Gor had been fighting. Even then, however, the Golden Wheel Monk wasn't *dead*. He could have conceivably gotten up and got back into the fight again, but he was ambushed by Chow Bak Tung, who got him into a bear hug while wearing Wong Yung's poisoned soft body armor, thus technically dying at Chow Bak Tung's hands (with a vital assist from Yeung Gor).

    <font size="1">[ April 02, 2003: Message edited by: Ken Cheng ]</font>

  14. #74
    Moderator Noodles's Avatar
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    As acidbeast said, these debates depend on who the person's favourite character is and these debates always end in tears <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    I'm just going to post my opinions on some of the points that have been raised in this thread.

    Guo Jing at his peak cannot defeat Ou Yang Feng.

    Guo Jing was not as his peak when he was fighting Ou Yang Feng. The only reason they tied is because Guo Jing was trying to look out for innocent bystanders below them, and so put himself at a disadvantage by not supporting himself fully on the roof beams. There are also some indication that Guo Jing is more powerful than Ou Yang Feng. After they both suffered similiar injuries, Guo Jing could get up and walk by himself just after three four hours, and strong enough to search for Yang Guo. Ou Yang Feng was pretty much half dead.

    Sad Palms is Yang Guo's best skill.

    Although this in one of my favourite skills, I think this is Yang Guo's second best skill. In my opinion his best skill is the heavy sword. Someone here said that Yang Guo only reached the stage of the elites when he was about 33. After Yang Guo had learnt the heavy sword and increased his internal energy thx to the snake gallbladders and training torrents of water, he battled Golden Wheel Monk he held his own, although without Siu Long Niu's help, he would have eventually lost when they competed internal energy. But the fact he could fight Golden Wheel and come close to him surely suggests he has approached the level that the elites are before the sixteen years seperation.
    If Yang Guo still didn't give up the iron sword thinking that he has learnt the next level in DGkB sword techniques, i think he would have defeated Golden Wheel monk much easier as one aspect of iron sword is its internal energy; Yang Guo has trained vigrously to set new levels in his internal energy to use the ovecoming the sword without a sword technique, so his ability with the iron sword would be incredible.
    (incidently IF Yang Guo could beat Guo Jing he would have to use the heavy sword)

    Yang Guo would defeat Gou Jing at the end of ROCH

    From what i've read this statement is based on the fact that Sad Palms is better than the Dragon Palms. I think what you forget is that at the end, Yang Guo has ended up with Siu Long Niu so the palms would not be as effective so how can he beat Guo Jing <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    Sad Palms is better than GJ's Dragon Palms.

    I think this is quite possible. A lot of people have used what HYS has said to say they are at least on terms but what I'm having slight doubts over is how does HYS know this for sure. He last fought with GJ at the 2nd Mt Wah Tournament, and his only other experience fighting against the palms was against H7G. This was the only time he has seen GJ really use the palms, maybe when HYS was on Peach blossom island he saw GJ practice but i doubt he has seen GJ's new 'soft' version of the palms with 9yin melded in with the palms. GJ has changed the fierce nature of the palms in favour of gradual increase in strength. So if YG did clash palms with GJ, then I'm pretty sure he will be forced back a few steps unless GJ charges up his palms before hand. However if they clashed and then competed palm strength then it will eventually be a tie, with maybe Guo Jing getting the upper hand. Stance wise, the sad palms are probably superior to the dragon palms. However I'm not sure about KF's dragon palms versus YG's sad palms.

    Thats my little rant <IMG SRC="smilies/beerchug.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/bow.gif" border="0">

    <font size="1">[ April 02, 2003: Message edited by: Noodles ]</font>
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  15. #75
    Senior Member someguy44's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Noodles:
    [QB]Sad Palms is Yang Guo's best skill.

    Although this in one of my favourite skills, I think this is Yang Guo's second best skill. In my opinion his best skill is the heavy sword. Someone here said that Yang Guo only reached the stage of the elites when he was about 33. After Yang Guo had learnt the heavy sword and increased his internal energy thx to the snake kidneys and training torrents of water, he battled Golden Wheel Monk he held his own, although without Siu Long Niu's help, he would have eventually lost when they competed internal energy. But the fact he could fight Golden Wheel and come close to him surely suggests he has approached the level that the elites are before the sixteen years seperation.
    If Yang Guo still didn't give up the iron sword thinking that he has learnt the next level in DGkB sword techniques, i think he would have defeated Golden Wheel monk much easier as one aspect of iron sword is its internal energy; Yang Guo has trained vigrously to set new levels in his internal energy to use the ovecoming the sword without a sword technique, so his ability with the iron sword would be incredible.
    (incidently IF Yang Guo could beat Guo Jing he would have to use the heavy sword)
    [QB]</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No, it's not YG's 2nd best skill and I was the one who said it. Can YG be just as powerful with any regular sword instead of with the heavy sword??? I seriously doubt it. It's like saying Mie Juet nun's heaven sword is her best martial arts skill. There is no way Mie Juet would've defeated masters like "golden flower granny" with just any regular sword. Their skills might be on par with each other, but with the heaven sword, Mie Juet won the fight.

    And I seriously doubt YG would've defeated Kau Cheen Yan with just a regular sword rather than his heavy sword. I like YG as much as the next person, but to say the heavy sword is his best skill, without addressing the sword itself is wrong. <IMG SRC="smilies/redface.gif" border="0">

    I do, however, agree with you about YG might've reached the elite stage before he was 36, although it was never really stated or witnessed.
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  16. #76
    Moderator Noodles's Avatar
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    I was just glancing over the posts so I didn't read what you wrote.

    Okay I should give credit to the heavy sword, but isn't the heavy sword a sword art in itself, and can be classed as a type of kung fu? If you give any decent swordsman the heavenly sword, they would appear to be more powerful because of the sword, but if you give the heavy sword to any decent swordsmen, would they be able to use it?
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  17. #77
    Senior Member someguy44's Avatar
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    No, but the fact of the matter still remains...

    Although the techniques YG used for the heavy sword is a skill in itself, it can not excel without the heavy sword. If YG used the same techniques with a regular sword, do you think that he would've defeated Kau Cheen Yan???

    Anyway, if YG was able to reach a stage similar to DGKB (treating anything like a sword or treating a regular sword like the heavy sword), then I would've considered his heavy sword skills to be his best kung fu. However, he never reached this stage therefore, to me, his best kung fu is the sad palms.
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  18. #78
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    52 posts in the past 3 days! (including this one hehe) <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

    I have never read or seen ROCH, so I can't give a say here. But is it possible to compare the powers of Guo Jing/Yang Guo with Zhang Wu Ji? Or is the time period to seperate to tell?
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  19. #79
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    Okay agreed, without the heavy sword, YG's best skill is his sad palms.
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    Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor can certainly be compared because, after all, they were contemporaries. Comparing Cheung Mo Gei to either of them is somewhat trickier, but it can still be done.

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