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Thread: The Ironies of LOCH/ROCH

  1. #1
    Senior Member Temujin's Avatar
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    Default The Ironies of LOCH/ROCH

    In LOCH, we all know that West Venom is the main villain of the story. AYF killed GJ's teachers (with the help of YK and his cronies) using his lethal poisons and later, the poison also killed YK. AYF was also the baddie who tried to ambush HYS, luckily MCF was there to save East Heretic. In addition, AYF tried to kill H7Q. West Venom also worked for the Jins and tried any ways he could to get his hands on 9 Yin Manual, by kidnapping HR and forcing GJ to recite and write it down for him.

    However, in the end, GJ seems to have forgiven his sins and let him go, yet GJ went beserk and falsely accused HYS. Some suggest that AYF's insanity is enough to pay the price of his crime. In fact, I have the impession that he's not as bad in ROCH. He also became Yang Guo's foster Dad and taught him martial arts. But don't you think he got away too easily ?

    In ROCH third edition, GWM terrorised the Central Plains with his ambition and martial arts supremacy. The guy caused so much havoc in the martial arts world. The only guy that he seems feared the most is off course, none other than Guo Jing. He would do anything to destroy Guo Jing. Yet, at the end of ROCH, Guo Jing's most talented daugther, Guo Xiang became his disciples and perhaps she passed down and integrated all his martial arts into E Mei techniques as well.

    In the end of the third edition, GWM no longer killed by Yang Guo, instead he died to save Guo Xiang. This really changed the whole attitude of the novel. And it's indeed another irony, GWM can be perceived as not as bad as he is the second revision, in fact he becomes a good guy saving his disciple. Yang Guo will be no longer credited as the guy who took out GWM with his awesome sad palms, and Guo Xiang's credibility also suffers, she's not as loyal and honorable as we used to know, since she became GWM's disciples. Again, although he still got killed at the end, it seems like he got away from painful death too easly,

    Looks like in both novels, JY is trying to create an irony. The bad guys are not that bad after all, and the good guy is not as good after all. The bad guy can repent and at least gain some recognition for good deeds.

    So.. Why do you think JY revised and wrote these stories in such a way to create this ironies ? Is it puposedly to tell us and give us a message that one should have a second chance and nothing is what it seems on the outside. No matter how bad a person is, he can also have a good side.
    Last edited by Temujin; 07-20-04 at 02:47 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    I don't see any irony in the examples you've mentioned.

  3. #3
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    However, in the end, GJ seems to have forgiven his sins and let him go, yet GJ went beserk and falsely accused HYS
    Didnt Gj still hold a grudge against OYF at the end? (for killin his masters). IIRC only YG and XLN kneeled on OYF's grave and it was stated that GJ did not due to what OYF had done to his masters tens of years ago?


    AYF tried to kill H7Q. West Venom also worked for the Jins and tried any ways he could to get his hands on 9 Yin Manual, by kidnapping HR and forcing GJ to recite and write it down for him.
    ummm...IMO even in his craziness he retained his brutality. Ex: his attack on AT(XLN master?),7G,XLN and proboally a bunch of others who did not want to fight at all. He treated YG very well because he was his adopted son. But even then he had some viciousness in him .I remember one part he was about to slap YG because he was not understanding all the theories about Toad Stance..but then decided against it when he YG's face reminded him of his son.

    Yang Guo will be no longer credited as the guy who took out GWM with his awesome sad palms,
    I thought ZBt killed him in second edition by bear hugging him. YG just injured him badly which is what he did in third edit as well?
    wow..04-08....4 years just like that..time flies..

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    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    GJ already pardoned OYF 3 times (see GJ Pardoning OYF 3 times... ) and OYF inside his grave still wanted GJ to kneel down to him?

  5. #5
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    GJ already pardoned OYF 3 times (see GJ Pardoning OYF 3 times... ) and OYF inside his grave still wanted GJ to kneel down to him?
    i dont get it......OYF was dead how could he want Gj to kneel down on his grave. I think it was a respect thing to say your prayers to elders. I have to do that somtimes too.
    Last edited by duguxiaojing; 07-20-04 at 10:39 PM.
    wow..04-08....4 years just like that..time flies..

  6. #6
    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    Well, OYF was never kind to GJ. He even killed GJ's teachers. GJ might forgive him, but he did not necessarily have to kneel down to OYF, right? As for how could OYF who was dead wanted GJ to kneel down to him, that's me being sarcastic

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    Senior Member ToOn99's Avatar
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    he was never kind to GJ, but by treating YG so well, basically he did a good deed to GJ indirectly .
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  8. #8
    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    But GJ was not required to kowtow to him, right? Better ask DY to kowtow (read DY's kowtows ) and we'll see what happens

  9. #9
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    Well in Chapter 40 it seemed that Gj had not forgave OYF (which is pretty understanding). Thats the reason why he did not kneel in front of OYF's grave. It seemed like that to me anyways.

    In chapter 40 really bad rough translation:

    欧阳锋的坟墓便在洪七公的墓旁。郭靖与欧阳锋仇深似海 ,想到他杀害恩师朱聪、韩宝
    驹等五侠的狠毒,虽然事隔数十年,仍是恨恨不已。只有 杨过思念旧情,和小龙女两人在墓
    前跪拜

    OYF's burial site was beside H7G's. GJ and OYF's hate for one another was as deep as the ocean. When he(GJ) remembered how OYF murdered JC,HBG ect the five heros so cruelly, although its been tens of years its something he cannot forget.Only Yg due to past relations and XLN kneeled and bowed to the burial site.

    So it dosent seem that Gj has forgave OYF at all.
    wow..04-08....4 years just like that..time flies..

  10. #10
    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    I see the misunderstanding now. I emphasized on GJ not required to kneel down to OYF and you on GJ not forgiving OYF. Different start point. My bad

  11. #11
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    O I C. Yep GJ should not have(or was not "required) to kow towed to OYF's grave due to respect for his former masters and what OYF had done to him. What i was trying to get at is that GJ did not do so because he still hated OYF.
    wow..04-08....4 years just like that..time flies..

  12. #12
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    I think West Poison Au Yeung Fung's losing his mind for the final eighteen or so years of his life was punishment enough. Insanity can be worse than death. What could be worse than losing one's memory and identity? By the time Au Yeung Fung died in ROCH, I felt sorry for the old bastard.

  13. #13
    Senior Member ToOn99's Avatar
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    Actually I hate people like MRF more than OYF or GLFW. If you want to be a bad person, just be bad. Don't need to pretend to be a hero but really bad in the inside.
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  14. #14
    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    ToOn, I gather you hate YBQ more?

  15. #15
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Irony: as a youth, Gwok Jing was considered hopeless in the field of martial arts. His teachers did not believe he would ever amount to anything in the martial world. He became one of the Greats by the time he was in his thirties.

    Irony: Yeung Hong, the descendant of Sung military heroes, betrayed the nation of his lineage to be the prince of an aggressive foreign state. His son, Yeung Gor, helped to save the country from being overrun by the Mongols.

  16. #16
    Senior Member ToOn99's Avatar
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    Ironies :
    - GJ was brought up in mongol, and received a lot of gifts from Temujin. But in the end, Temujin was the one who pushed his mom to kill herself.

    - GJ was Mongolian Hero, however in the end he died due to fighting with mongol's soldiers.

    - WanYen Hong Lie loved BXR so much, In the end he got nothing.
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  17. #17
    Senior Member - L1n -'s Avatar
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    lol but gj wasn't offcially given his name until he was in his 50's when they named him bei xia.

  18. #18
    Senior Member SkineePanda's Avatar
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    OuYang Feng, the murderer of Yang Hang became the adopted father of Yang Guo.

    Yelu Chai, a Khitan fighting for the Song.

  19. #19
    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    Originally posted by - L1n -
    lol but gj wasn't offcially given his name until he was in his 50's when they named him bei xia.
    He overcame official title without official title

  20. #20
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Originally posted by SkineePanda
    OuYang Feng, the murderer of Yang Hang became the adopted father of Yang Guo.
    OYF becoming the "father" of his real son's murderer's son.

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