NBA Discussion

[Moinllieon]

Clyde was better offensively, Pippen was better defensively.

But keep in mind the question is not who is better, but who would you rather build around.

Somebody did build a team around Clyde and that team did make it to the Finals twice, so you know what you get if you pick Clyde. Not sure about Scottie though.

[spooks]

Clyde was better offensively, Pippen was better defensively.

But keep in mind the question is not who is better, but who would you rather build around.

Somebody did build a team around Clyde and that team did make it to the Finals twice, so you know what you get if you pick Clyde. Not sure about Scottie though.

If I was building a team. I would chose to build around the better player and Pippen was the better player.

Clyde at his best gives me 27 ppg, Pippen gives me 22. I can find scorers to make up that 5 ppg, I won't find defenders near Pippen's level.

[Long]

If I was building a team. I would chose to build around the better player and Pippen was the better player.

Clyde at his best gives me 27 ppg, Pippen gives me 22. I can find scorers to make up that 5 ppg, I won't find defenders near Pippen's level.

Yeah but Clyde scores his points at OER 57, Pippen at OER 47. The USA Dream Team found out what OER is all about when they sleected 9 out of 12 guys with an OER of less than 50.0.. Look what happened?? They only won the Bronze and most of the guys struggled offensively.

You'd don't find many more offensively efficent SGs than Clyde Drexler. Also I have always thought that Clyde was a great defender, an aspect of his game that's often overlooked because of his offensive skills...

[spooks]

Yeah but Clyde scores his points at OER 57, Pippen at OER 47. The USA Dream Team found out what OER is all about when they sleected 9 out of 12 guys with an OER of less than 50.0.. Look what happened?? They only won the Bronze and most of the guys struggled offensively.

You'd don't find many more offensively efficent SGs than Clyde Drexler. Also I have always thought that Clyde was a great defender, an aspect of his game that's often overlooked because of his offensive skills...

Sorry, your OER rating still does not do anything for me. IMHO its a gimmicky stat. US winning bronze this year has nothing to do with Pippen. Comparing what they sent to Pippen actually weakens your argument. It doesn't prove anything except that the players they sent couldn't hit a wide open 18 foot jumper if their lives depended on it. Anyone who watched Prime Pippen would tell you, when he wanted to score. He would. Pippen was a career 47% shooter, Clyde was a career 47% shooter.

Clyde > Pippen offensively
Pippen >>> Clyde defensively.

You wont find many more players who can shut down any perimeter player on the opposing team while putting up 20/7/7. In fact, I can only think of one. His name was Michael Jordan.

[Moinllieon]

Sorry, your OER rating still does not do anything for me. IMHO its a gimmicky stat. US winning bronze this year has nothing to do with Pippen. Comparing what they sent to Pippen actually weakens your argument. It doesn't prove anything except that the players they sent couldn't hit a wide open 18 foot jumper if their lives depended on it. Anyone who watched Prime Pippen would tell you, when he wanted to score. He would. Pippen was a career 47% shooter, Clyde was a career 47% shooter.

I thought we were going for peaks, not career shooting.

Clyde > Pippen offensively
Pippen >>> Clyde defensively.

You wont find many more players who can shut down any perimeter player on the opposing team while putting up 20/7/7. In fact, I can only think of one. His name was Michael Jordan.

I don't know, Clyde in his prime put up 27/7/6 while playing good defense. Sure he doesn't play "shut down" defense. But there are MANY more good defenders than good offensive players who can consistently create his own shot, shoot accurately from the outside, and hit his freethrows as well as being a clutch player (1.3 secs Pip! )

Good arguments can be made on both sides.

[spooks]

I thought we were going for peaks, not career shooting.

Ask Long about his OER I assumed he calculated that based on their career numbers. Pippen was as efficient a scorer in his prime. 22 ppg shooting 50% compared to 27 ppg shooting 50%. Wasn't as prolific a scorer but just as efficient.

I don't know, Clyde in his prime put up 27/7/6 while playing good defense. Sure he doesn't play "shut down" defense. But there are MANY more good defenders than good offensive players who can consistently create his own shot, shoot accurately from the outside, and hit his freethrows as well as being a clutch player (1.3 secs Pip! )

Good arguments can be made on both sides.

I can find 6-7 current NBA players who could give me offensive production + average defense like Clyde.

How many Pippens can you find?

[Meh]

I can find 6-7 current NBA players who could give me offensive production + average defense like Clyde.

Oh, that is just so wrong on so many different levels.

There are only two current day comparable player for Drexler, Kobe and T-Mac. THAT'S IT. And quite frankly, Kobe and T-Mac have to maintain excellence for quite a while longer(meaning no injuries or sharp decline in ability) before they can be compared to Drexler.

IMO, Pippen and Drexler are similar level players. Both would rank in the 30s and 40s among the best NBA players in history. Drexler is a much more explosive player on offense and in terms of creating his own shot. Pippen has solid edge on defense. Of course, Drexler had to carry his team's offensive load, whereas Pippen had MJ. Drexler's defense was quite good in his latter days at Houston, even though he old already. Simply because the majority of the offensive players no longer ran through him in Houston. So it's debatable just how well Drexler's defense could be had he not been the primary scorer on the team.

If I were an expansion team and can choose one to start my team, I'd take Drexler. If I already have a star on my team, I'd add Pippen.

[spooks]

Comes down to personal preference between those 2. You can't really go wrong with either. It's like TD vs KG or Kobe vs T-Mac comparison. You can make strong cases for both.

So it's debatable just how well Drexler's defense could be had he not been the primary scorer on the team.

Same for Pippen's offense. Isn't unrealistic to say Pippen could have made up 3-5 ppg if he didn't exert so much energy on defense.

[Meh]

Comes down to personal preference between those 2. You can't really go wrong with either. It's like TD vs KG or Kobe vs T-Mac comparison. You can make strong cases for both.

Actually, Duncan so far looks to have a pretty clear advantage over KG. Duncan's impact on the Spurs is comparable to KG's impact on the Wolves. The difference, of course, is that SA has won 2 championships and is a perenial contender. The Wolves were exiting the 1st round routinely before this year.

I do agree with your general idea. Pippen and Drexler are pretty much equal in terms of player value, despite having different games.

Same for Pippen's offense. Isn't unrealistic to say Pippen could have made up 3-5 ppg if he didn't exert so much energy on defense.

You're right. That said, I've seen both players quite a bit in the early 90s. Pippen does not look like a great scorer. He plays well within a system and gets LOTS of easy baskets, from transition and great passing within the triangle. I rarely see Pippen just take over games, even when MJ's not around, the way you'd expect from a go-to guy. Pippen might be by far the best role player in the history of the game, but he's still more of a role player than a primary star. Drexler could break down defenses better than anyone in his day not named Jordan.

On the flip side, Pippen's defense is simply dominating. I doubt Drexler can ever match him on defense, but just think it's closer than you'd think. Drexler was very athletic and has locked down his man when necessary. He just doesn't do it all the time.

[hulkst3r]

um i would take kobe over tmac anyday...kobe had shaq and still put up huge scoring numbers especially 02-03 season he was a sick freak..and hes probably the only player that plays excellent offense with excellent defense...now we get to see kobe w/o shaq so he'll put up bigger numbers wit his excellent defense...

A MONSTER SEASON AWAITS FOR KOBE BRYANT!!!

[Long]

I can find 6-7 current NBA players who could give me offensive production + average defense like Clyde.

During the course of his career, I think Clyde's defense was largely overlooked because of his offensive abilities. He had one of the quickest hands in the NBA and like Karl Malone, it was very difficult to take a turn around jump shot against him as he'll strip you of the ball. I remember in the 92' NBA Finals he was a constant menace on defense and striped MJ of the ball many times. But as always MJ keeps coming at ya, no matter what happens. And MJ draws fouls and Clyde was always in foul trouble that series...

A career 'steals' average of 2.03 pg is not bad considering the best SG in the NBA, MJ had a career average of 2.35.

[spooks]

um i would take kobe over tmac anyday...kobe had shaq and still put up huge scoring numbers especially 02-03 season he was a sick freak..and hes probably the only player that plays excellent offense with excellent defense...now we get to see kobe w/o shaq so he'll put up bigger numbers wit his excellent defense...

A MONSTER SEASON AWAITS FOR KOBE BRYANT!!!

Kobe should get big numbers on offense but I think Kobe's defense is gonna struggle this year.

1) He won't be able to gamble as much without Shaq in the middle.
2) Almost no help on offense so he'll end up using alot of his energy scoring and probably get lazy defensively. Like T-Mac the last couple years

Long: Steals are nice but isn't an accurate measure of defensive prowess. Look at AI. He's a career 2.38 spg and nobody is gonna call him a good defender.

[Eliar Swiftfire]

Hm, but one thing I don't like about Pippen is one particular incident. When he sulked and chose to stay at the bench during clutch time cos' Phil wrote a play for Kukoc and not him. Something like that. MJ wasn't around then... obviously.

[Eliar Swiftfire]

To those Kobe worshippers out there.

===================

Excerpts of Bryant's interview with investigators


September 16, 2004
Excerpts from NBA star Kobe Bryant's interview with Eagle County sheriff's investigators Doug Winters and Dan Loya the night after a 19-year-old employee of a Vail-area resort told police he had sexually assaulted her. The Vail Daily published a transcript of the interview from an audio recording sent anonymously to the newspaper. The newspaper said it edited the interview to remove profanity and graphic sexual descriptions.

Bryant: ``My bodyguards -- I got to, I got to tell them what's going on, my biggest fear is my career and ... ``

Winters: ``I understand ...''

Bryant: ``... my image, so.''

Winters: ``... very, very much so and we're trying to respect that as much as we can, all right?''

Loya: ``And this is how we work, Kobe. We're not, we're not here to destroy your career or your image, but we do have a serious matter at hand that we'd like to resolve and it's all going to depend on your cooperation and how you want to resolve it.''

Bryant: ``Well. Do I have to?''

Winters: ``Well, that's up to you, I mean we'd like to find out your side of the story, we'll get into the details of it, we'll explain what's going on. Um, but that's all we want to do, Kobe.''

Loya: ``And that's one of the reasons, and that's one of the reasons, this is one of the reasons we're up here at this time of night.''

Bryant: ``Ask me what, ask me something, ask me anything.''

(Loya had asked Bryant how the woman showed him a tattoo on her back.)

Bryant: ``She had like a strap or whatever and she like lowered it. I told her to turn around and she lowered it and she showed me.''

Winters: ``OK, all right um, did anything happen in the room?''

Bryant: ``Like what?''

Loya: ``Uh, did you guys hug or kiss?''

Winters: ``Kiss or hug?''

Bryant: ``No.''

Winters: ``OK. Um. I'll be blunt and ask you. Did you have sexual intercourse with her?''

Bryant: ``No.''

Winters: ``Yet there is an allegation that it was an unconsensual intercourse that occurred last night, OK. All right. Hang on, OK, hang on, I understand you have every right to be upset, OK, but you know, I'm giving you an opportunity to tell the truth if something did happen, because I'm going to tell you now, um, we're going to find out.''

Bryant: ``Is there any way I can settle this whatever it is, I mean ... ?''

Winters: ``Well, what do you mean by settle?''

Bryant: ``If my wife, if my wife found out that anybody made any type of allegations against me she would be infuriated.''

Loya: ``Just be straight up, we're not going to tell your wife or anything like that. Did you have sexual intercourse with her?''

Bryant: ``Uh, this is what I need to know because uh I did have sexual intercourse with her. Cause I was (inaudible).''

Winters: ``And I understand.''

Loya: ``OK, was it consensual?''

Bryant: ``It was totally consensual.''

Loya: ``What makes you believe, what makes you believe it was consensual?''

Bryant: ```Cause she started kissing me, (inaudible) then she bent over and (inaudible).''

Loya: ``Is this, I don't mean to offend you in any way but is this a habit of yours, that you cheat on your wife?''

Winters: ``Has this ever happened before?''

Bryant: ``Um, yes, with one other person. And she could actually testify I do that um, I do the same thing, I hold her from the back, I put my hands (inaudible).''

Loya: ``And who's that other person?''

Bryant: ``Her name is Michelle.''

Loya: ``And this is somebody you frequent or one time incident or ...?''

Bryant: ``No. She's a, she's a frequent (inaudible).''

Loya: ``And your wife ...''

Bryant: (Inaudible)

Loya: ``Obviously your wife doesn't know about this?''

Bryant:'' No. Nothing man, seriously.''

[spooks]

Meh. He's not the first professional athlete to do this kinda crap. Certainly won't be the last.

Anyways if anyone is interested in reading the full article (quite lengthy). Here ya go.

Link

[Long]

Meh. He's not the first professional athlete to do this kinda crap. Certainly won't be the last.[/URL]

Well, prior to going into the season, Kobe has already proven that he's way behind his sporting peers in intelligence.

Yes, Kobe is not the first athlete to do this kinda crap as you put it - but he has to be one of the dumbest to be caught "red handed" - shows lack of intelligence, and a sense of when to pick the "right" moments to do that kinda stuff that no one knows about... and that no one will accuse you of "rape".

I mean for years there were speculations that MJ repeatedkly cheated on his wife ect... But "no dirt".

MJ/Kobe comparisions.

MJ = 2 (more championships, more brains)

Kobe = 0 (less championships, less smarts)

[duguxiaojing]

Not necessarily Jordan had an affair with a woman a while back. Dont remember her name but she was white. He also had gambling problems which were pretty well known. There was plenty of dirt its just that Jordan was never accused of anything as serious as rape. And come on *if* Kobe really did not rape her then how would he know that she was going to accuse him of rape? It has nothing to do with his intelligence at all. He was stupid to cheat on his super hot wife but pretty much every other NBA player does it so i guess the NBA is full of dumba$$es.

So please if this is an argument about Kobe's intelligence at least back it up. It just seems that you hate Kobe forcing shaq out of LA. Which he shouldnt even shoulder full credit for. If you want to $hit on anybody it's more Jerry Buss's or Mike Kupchuck's fault.

[Long]

It just seems that you hate Kobe forcing shaq out of LA. Which he shouldnt even shoulder full credit for. If you want to $hit on anybody it's more Jerry Buss's or Mike Kupchuck's fault.

You're mistaken here. My hate of Kobe has nothing to do with him forcing Shaq out of LA or anything esle.

My hate of Kobe is that his 'self-fish' play cost the Lakers a Championship....

[duguxiaojing]

Read a rumor that Jordan's working out like crazy and is trying to get into shape for shot at title with the diesel, anybody buying it?

You're mistaken here. My hate of Kobe has nothing to do with him forcing Shaq out of LA or anything esle.

Come one man its been like 4 months already cant we just let it go . Im already pumped for next season one month and like 2 weeks left. Curious to see how phoenix denver and houston is gonna turn out. Its gonna be a painful to watch La this year but were gonna get a playoff berth ......

Just a run of the top teams

Minni
sactown
Dallas
SanAntonio
Denver
Houston
Phoenix
LA
Memephis
Utah(yeah they do deserve to be here especially with sloan hanging around IMOP a guarnteed plaoff team in east especially wit booz now)

alot of teams that can ball in west hey??

[spooks]

Read a rumor that Jordan's working out like crazy and is trying to get into shape for shot at title with the diesel, anybody buying it?

I hope neither MJ or Drexler are serious about coming back. MJ would be a nice upgrade at SF for the Heat but I dont think his body can take an entire season + playoffs. Drexler would be useless.

Minny, Spurs, Mavs, Kings and Nuggets are playoff locks. Rest of the teams can fight for the last 2 spots.