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  1. #41
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    Originally posted by Long
    Both Mo Taylor and Juwan Howard are on 'biggish' type contracts. NY are on the look out for a PF. If the deal with Dallas for Walker doesn't come through, Houston could try to ship Taylor and Howard to NY for Penny Hardaway and Kurt Thomas. NY are trying to get rid of these players. Leaves Houston with.

    PG - Penny Hardaway (had an okay play-off series)
    SG - Tracy McGrady
    SF - Jim Jackson
    PF - Kurt Thomas
    C - Yao Ming

    If I were Houston I would be looking to get a "passing" PG who averages around 6 to 9 assists per game, and around 10.0 ppg.

    I certainly wouldn't touch "hungry" players like Nick Van-Exel, Brent Barry, and whomever else they're thinking with a pole. These guys are only concerned about "jacking" up shots and are no different to the combo of Mobley/Francis, whom they've just dealt away.

    Penny's ppg has dropped to around 9.0ppg, but he can still pass if they play him at PG. A position he played for the Magic.
    Seriously, you need to check the salaries before proposing any sort of trade. Penny makes Max money, something like $12 mil if I'm not mistaken. Kurk I believe signed an extension for something like $6-8 mil per. If you want the salaries to come within 15% as the rule states, the Rockets would have to give up 3 of the following: Weatherspoon, Taylor, Piatkowski, Juwan Howard. Unless the Knicks want overpaid crap, there's no way they can trade Penny to the Rockets.

    Oh, and Van-Exel today isn't exactly the All-star Van-Exel with the Lakers a few years back. The guy knows he's now a role player and wants to play in Texas. With Yao Ming and T-Mac, he's not going to be stupid enough to jack up shots like Francis. And I agree with Spooks on Barry, except for the fact that the Rockets do have the money to get him. They only need to pay up 4 years at the max Mid-Level exception. Although that looks too much for a 32 year old role player.

    I'm hoping it would be Fisher though. The guy probably doesn't even have to learn anything. He's spent years mastering the art of throwing it to Shaq/Kobe that passing to Yao/T-Mac would be second nature. And players like Fisher flourish when there are superstars who draws attention.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Long's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Meh
    I'm hoping it would be Fisher though. The guy probably doesn't even have to learn anything. He's spent years mastering the art of throwing it to Shaq/Kobe that passing to Yao/T-Mac would be second nature. And players like Fisher flourish when there are superstars who draws attention.
    Agreed, Derek Fisher is a nice 'fit' for the Houston Rockets. Given Gary Payton is staying for around $5.6 m next year with the Lakers, it'll probably make it more likely that Fisher will try to leave and get a starting role elswhere. Surely the Rockets could afford more than $3 million that Fisher will be getting as a Laker. All depends if he "opts" out on Thursday.

    As with the proposed trades. I was aware Penny is around the $12 to $14 million mark, but I thought so too was Juwan Howard. Or was that his Dallas/Denver days only and the Magic signed him for much less??

    As with Nick Van-Exel. A couple of the games I've seen him play with Denver/Dallas/Warriors didn't look good. Some of the games I watched were close. But yet Van-Exel would get off the bench and take 10 shots in around 14 minutes worth of play.

    Last year he averaged 32 mins, and 12.3 shots per game for GSW. 27 mins and 11 shots per game as a Mavs in the previous season before that. Admitedly its pretty low for his standards. But for me that's still high for a 'bench' player. It might seem like 12 to 11 shots is "nothing". But consider that Shaq only got around 14 shots per game as a superstar in 2003/04. This is a lot of shots for a 3rd/4th/5th string player don't you think???

    Compare that with Fisher. His best year even as a starter played 28 mins and averaged 9.5 shots per game. Career wise Fisher plays 27.3 mins and averages 6.6 shots per game.

    Brent Barry checks out alright. He jacks up less than 8 shots most seasons.
    "Seems, madam! Nay it is, I know not seems!" - Hamlet, William Shakespeare

  3. #43

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    Howard is getting about $6 million per. That ridiculously large contract you are thinking about ($103 mill for 7 years) expired last season.
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    只是朱颜改.
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  4. #44
    Senior Member spooks's Avatar
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    Rockets still need some serious help if they want to be real contenders.

    Lue or Gaines/???
    T-Mac/Piatkowski
    Jackson/Nachbar
    Howard/Taylor/Weatherspoon
    Yao/???

    Soft front court and no bench. Can anyone realistically see this team beating the other western powerhouses next year? They do have the best young duo in the league to build around though.
    Basketball is the second most exciting indoor sport, and the other one shouldn't have spectators.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Long's Avatar
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    Losing a 6'11 PF/C in the trade like Kevin Cato was huge. He is an important player that they'll need to replace on the bench. Great defense and rebounding will be missed. I think Clearance Weatherspoon on the bench is okay, though a little undersized at PF standing at only 6'7. The guys they should be looking to get rid off is Mo Taylor.

    Juwan Howard stands at around 6'10 and will do good as a PF. Last season he played at C. I think he'll do okay and be the 3rd/4th scoring option behind T-Mac/Yao, ie 15ppg, 8.0 rpg. That's good enough.

    Remember Yao Ming is still developing. I won't be surprised if he is one who'll lift his game by averaging 20+ pts per game, 10+ rebs per game, and 2+ blocks per game.

    When we look at bench front line of the West. Only the Kings have the C/PF fowards to back up thier starters. Wolves really had no one. Spurs had no one. Lakers had no one. Houston having no one won't affect them that much.

    PGs - Apart from Fisher, there's not much 'cheap' talent available at PG for Houston. Travis Best, Brevin Knight, and Charlie Ward all average under 5.0 assits per game. Houston must hope that Gaines and Lue further develop I think.

    PF - Need to get rid of Mo Taylor.

    C - as a backup, anyone knows what happened to the promising Wang Zhizhi?? Saw him in Dallas and he look 'promising' with limited opportunity. Prehaps his game will lift playing behind Yao Ming.

    Also where's the mamoth Shawn Kemp when you need him to play as a rebounding back-up. I remember even in his declining years in Portland/Magic he was still able to grab 6 to 8 boards in around 20 Mins of play. Stands at 6'10 and weighs as much as SHaq these days. Could probably sign him for the NBA minimum. He didn't even play last season. (just joking, can't believe his rapid decline, as with Vin Baker).
    "Seems, madam! Nay it is, I know not seems!" - Hamlet, William Shakespeare

  6. #46
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    wat about bradley that guy is pathetic not even half of what yao is.lol u no wat they should also consider jay williams the number 2 pik behind yao, although his making a comeback they should really look at his progress cos if chicago dosen't want him back then he would be offering himself to other teams. In his first season to me he did pretty damn well.

  7. #47
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    Last year he averaged 32 mins, and 12.3 shots per game for GSW. 27 mins and 11 shots per game as a Mavs in the previous season before that. Admitedly its pretty low for his standards. But for me that's still high for a 'bench' player. It might seem like 12 to 11 shots is "nothing". But consider that Shaq only got around 14 shots per game as a superstar in 2003/04. This is a lot of shots for a 3rd/4th/5th string player don't you think???
    Actually, those aren't high numbers. For one thing, there are many bench players in the league whose purpose is to bring some offense when the starters are resting. That's what he was in Dallas. As for GS, is there even one player on that team worth passing to? NVE jacking up shots in GS is probably what the coach was asking him to do. Because he's certainly one of the better scorers on that lousy team.

    Rockets still need some serious help if they want to be real contenders.

    Lue or Gaines/???
    T-Mac/Piatkowski
    Jackson/Nachbar
    Howard/Taylor/Weatherspoon
    Yao/???

    Soft front court and no bench. Can anyone realistically see this team beating the other western powerhouses next year? They do have the best young duo in the league to build around though.
    Jackson, Howard, and Decent-Free-Agent-PG aren't the worst role players one can put around 2 superstars. I mean, look at some of the role players from the Laker/Bulls/Spurs/Rockets teams in the past decade: Derek Fisher, Robert Horry, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, Luc Longley, Rodman, Rick Fox, Mario Elie...

    Other than Dennis Rodman and maybe Rick Fox earlier with the Lakers, the Jim Jackson and Juwan Howard looks quite fine. The MUCH MORE IMPORTANT need for the Rockets is for the stars to deliever. That is, the development of Yao and his coexistence with T-Mac.

    Losing a 6'11 PF/C in the trade like Kevin Cato was huge. He is an important player that they'll need to replace on the bench. Great defense and rebounding will be missed. I think Clearance Weatherspoon on the bench is okay, though a little undersized at PF standing at only 6'7. The guys they should be looking to get rid off is Mo Taylor.

    Juwan Howard stands at around 6'10 and will do good as a PF. Last season he played at C. I think he'll do okay and be the 3rd/4th scoring option behind T-Mac/Yao, ie 15ppg, 8.0 rpg. That's good enough.
    Juwan Howard brings one big thing that Cato never had, and that's a jumpshot. For all the talk about Francis limiting Yao's offense, Cato played a much bigger part. The Rockets play 4 on 5 when he's in because the guy can't shoot beyond 3 feet, allowing teams to double Yao almost at will.

    Overall, I see Howard as an upgrade over Cato. The only problem is a lack of a backup center when Yao rests. But then again, it's not like the NBA is full of great centers to take advantage of that.

  8. #48
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    You know it's funny that whenever trade talk on the Rockets come up, Mo Taylor is hardly ever mentioned. It's as if everyone has accepted that there's no way the Rockets will ever be able to trade Taylor without taking on a worst contract in return. Taylor's contract is the one thing keeping this team down. If they could only free up the money, they could easily use it to sign 2 quality role players and get a deeper bench.

    Taylor's contract still has 3 years at $9million a year.

  9. #49
    Senior Member spooks's Avatar
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    T-Mac in Houston talk may be a bit premature. Francis can't be officially traded until July 1st and Francis is being whiny little punk again. Trying to pull the same stunt he did on the Grizzlies.

    Suns offer for T-Mac is pretty damn good too. Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, 7th pick for T-mac. Risky the Suns because McGrady is saying Houston is the only team he will stay with long term.
    Basketball is the second most exciting indoor sport, and the other one shouldn't have spectators.

  10. #50
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    Hopefully shaq decedies no to leave and then LA signs mcdyss (whose 100 percent healthy)and jips someone for JT all there old stars come back and KRush has developed into RAllen. And then we go and spank Dtroit........

    i know it wont happen though
    wow..04-08....4 years just like that..time flies..

  11. #51
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    You know it's funny that whenever trade talk on the Rockets come up, Mo Taylor is hardly ever mentioned. It's as if everyone has accepted that there's no way the Rockets will ever be able to trade Taylor without taking on a worst contract in return. Taylor's contract is the one thing keeping this team down. If they could only free up the money, they could easily use it to sign 2 quality role players and get a deeper bench.
    Taylor was exposed in the expansion draft, and was not taken or used in a trade with another team. That's all you need to know about his "value". As for his contract, it's only one of 3 contracts that's been keeping the Rockets down, along with Weatherspoon and Cato(soon likely to be Howard). Oh well, it's not going to matter anyway, as McGrady + Yao's-soon-max-extention will soon put the Rockets over the cap for the next decade.

    T-Mac in Houston talk may be a bit premature. Francis can't be officially traded until July 1st and Francis is being whiny little punk again. Trying to pull the same stunt he did on the Grizzlies.
    But he has no leverage this time. With the Grizz, he was sacrificing one year of playing time at rookie salary. Now, he's sacrificing 5yr $75 mil. That's why some people are baffled at why the Magic is balking at his supposed displeasure. It's not like he can do anything about it.

    Suns offer for T-Mac is pretty damn good too. Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, 7th pick for T-mac. Risky the Suns because McGrady is saying Houston is the only team he will stay with long term.
    The Suns' deal makes no sense. McGrady would take one look at the Suns roster post-trade and realize how crappy the team is. So he's not signing an extension. From the Suns perspective, they have plenty of cap money. It would be stupid for them to give up Marion, 7th pick, JJ, AND potential-superstar-FA for T-Mac.

    The Rockets trade really is the best scenario all-around. T-Mac gets his dominant big man to play with. The Magic get a semi-star and two great role players for a guy they can't keep, and the Rockets get a top-5 player and still keep possibly the best future center in the NBA.

  12. #52
    Senior Member spooks's Avatar
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    Bulls/Celtics in trade talks about the possibility of swapping PP for Chandler/#3 pick + filler.

    Pretty bad trade there, trading a 2nd tier SG for a Marcus Camby clone and the #3 pick.
    Basketball is the second most exciting indoor sport, and the other one shouldn't have spectators.

  13. #53
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    As for his contract, it's only one of 3 contracts that's been keeping the Rockets down, along with Weatherspoon and Cato(soon likely to be Howard). Oh well, it's not going to matter anyway, as McGrady + Yao's-soon-max-extention will soon put the Rockets over the cap for the next decade
    Cato's a little overpriced but he's still still tradeable. He's capable of being the starting center of many other teams.

    Weatherspoon's contract is much smaller than Taylor's and it expires in two more years, freeing up the money to sign Yao to a max contract. And remember they got spoon for moochie norris. At least spoon contributes a little to the team. With spoon, they are already making the best of a bad situation.

    If the t-mac goes through, it's interesting to note that the Rockets will have nobody left from the pre-Yao team. Looks like JVG is intent on doing a thorough housecleaning.

  14. #54
    Senior Member spooks's Avatar
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    Latest News

    Mavs/Wizards swing a deal

    The trade is:

    #5
    Stack
    Laettner

    For

    Jamison

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1827125

    Pick secures them a 'good' big man whether they trade for Shaq or not, also gives them a high pick if they need to sweeten a deal for Shaq.

    Bulls also pick up the 7th pick from the Suns for #31, future 1st rounder and cash. So the Suns/Magic trade is pretty much dead.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2...ory?id=1827142
    Last edited by spooks; 06-23-04 at 10:48 PM.
    Basketball is the second most exciting indoor sport, and the other one shouldn't have spectators.

  15. #55
    Senior Member Long's Avatar
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    Who’s the better player? MJ or Kobe? Well as you know I love stats. I’ve done a quick comparison of all of the players “offensive efficiency rating”. This stat does really well in comparing the offensive abilities of each player. I am lining these players up in terms of their rating at Kobe’s age and what happened in the 03/04 season. 1 point makes a huge difference. Being under 50.0 = “not effective” (ie it would take 20 shots to score 20pts). Interesting results:

    1. Michael Jordan: Career offensive efficiency of 54.16. At Kobe’s age was 58.42.

    2. Clyde Drexler: Career of 58.55. At Kobe’s age was only 53.47.

    3. Kobe Bryant: Career of 57.63. In 2003/04 was 50.13. (In NBA Finals was 41.24)

    4. Dominique Wilkins: Career of 50.46. At Kobe’s age was 49.64

    5. Vince Carter: Career of 48.23. In 2003/04 was 46.03.

    6. Steve Francis: Career of 47.71. In 2003/04 was 44.88.

    7. Tracy McGrady: Career of 48.33. In 2003/04 was 44.72.

    8. Jerry Stackhouse: Career of 46.95. In 2003/04 was 44.70.

    9. Penny Hardaway: Career of 49.01. In 2003/04 was 44.38.

    10. Allen Iverson: Career average of 46.0. In 2003/04 was 43.60.

    11. Nick Van-Exel: Career of 43.08. In 2003/04 was 40.60.

    Though Kobe’s career offensive efficiency of 57.63 compared with MJ’s 54.16. Early in MJ’s career he was consistently efficient at the offensive end and rated over 57.0 consistently. His effectiveness on the offensive end dropped as he aged.

    Clyde Drexler is actually the most effective offensive SG in the NBA with career average of 58.55. Interesting comparison between T-Mac and Steve Francis. One would indicate that if they both took the same amount of shots there’s not much difference between them.

    Conclusion: This is further proof, despite my “grumblings” that Kobe Bryant is not far off MJ. However he had an efficiency rating of only 41.24 in the NBA finals. Now you know why I was so upset. But Kobes effectiveness on the offensive end has dropped the past few seasons. But Kobe is by far the best SG in the NBA at the offensive end.

    Will do a rating of centres including Shaq, Yao Ming, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Patrick Ewing, and Hakeem Olajuwon later.
    "Seems, madam! Nay it is, I know not seems!" - Hamlet, William Shakespeare

  16. #56
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    Honestly, if I were a Mavericks fan, I'd be a bit annoyed with Cuban just making deals for the sake of making deals. Last year they got Jamison and Walker, only to win LESS games from the year before. Now they're making more moves to make the team smaller. Considering how soft Dirk and Walker are, this is a team that seems to be made up of no big man at all: Dirk, Nash, Stackhouse, Finley, Walker, Marquis Daniels... it's almost as if size doesn't matter.

    Another trade update: The Suns traded #7 to the Bulls for a second round pick and a future #1. Looks like they're out of the T-Mac running and is SERIOUSLY going for Kobe. Man, if Kobe doesn't go to Phoenix, it's going to be hilarious to see how they handle all that cap room. After this trade and the White thing in the expansion draft, they better get somebody awesome as a FA. Otherwise it's going to be the cellar for them.

  17. #57
    Senior Member Long's Avatar
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    Shaquille O’Neal may claim that he is the most Dominant Player Ever. He may be right. But the most “efficient” player at the offensive end is actually Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Shaquille is up there.

    But surprising to find that Wilt Chamberlain is not as effective as I thought he would be. Good power ratings for Yao Ming. 56.57 is really good. Just need more touches of the ball. But Shaq blows everyone away in the NBA Finals with 59.64. This is really effective. See comparison below. Comments anyone?

    Interesting to note that Clyde Drexler is even more effective on the offensive end than Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (58.55 compared with 58.22). People probably wouldn’t pick that.

    Career “Offensive Efficiency Rating” in Regular Season:

    1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar = 58.22
    2. Shaquille O’Neal = 56.82
    3. David Robinson = 56.58
    4. Yao Ming = 56.57
    5. Moses Malone = 55.23
    6. Hakeem Olajuwon = 54.36
    7. Tim Duncan = 54.12
    8. Patrick Ewing = 54.07
    9. Wilt Chamberlain = 53.38

    Career “Offensive Efficiency Rating” in Play-Offs:

    1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar = 56.12
    2. Hakeem Olajuwon = 55.67
    3. Shaquille O’Neal = 55.11 (59.64 in NBA Finals)
    4. Tim Duncan = 54.47
    5. Moses Malone = 53.32
    6. David Robinson = 53.08
    7. Patrick Ewing = 50.59
    8. Wilt Chamberlain = 50.92
    9. Yao Ming = 49.02
    "Seems, madam! Nay it is, I know not seems!" - Hamlet, William Shakespeare

  18. #58
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    Long,
    How did you compute that?
    I'm also curious about Pippen's efficiency. I believe he had better stats than Francis.

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    Looks to me the Mavs are positioning to trade for Shaq. If they give away Walker and Finley, Laetner and Stackhouse can play into those positions.

  20. #60
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    I think mavs made the trade to add as trade bait for Shaq... they also going to trade away the 5th pick they got along with Christian and Stackhouse.
    Flame on I am gone...

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