NBA Discussion

[Moinllieon]

Again my argument was last 1/2 of the season. His numbers were insane you can look them up. Amare has been putting up MVP numbers for almost a full year now.

Terrible team or not, Amare got his numbers by dominating. Like you say anyone can pad stats on a bad team, but how many of those players can dominate while racking up the stats.

So? Dominating on a bad team gets you nothing, you know that. The number one thing in sports isn't dominating, it's about winning. Just look at how people put down Ron Harper just a bit ago simply because he was great for a terrible team. I don't deny that Amare had a good year last year, but you don't get any hype or coverage playing a great second half for a team that won a total of 29 games. Early in his careers nobody dominated games and put up numbers like MJ, but Bird and Magic kept on winning MVPs. There's a reason for that.

Last point, since when has a team's performance been placed on 1 player? Could the Sun's failure have been because they didn't have a decent PG for 2/3 of the year? Maybe because of bad coaching? Must have been that joke of a bench they tried to pass off as one.

Of course not. Save for few exceptions (Chicago before Scottie got there, Lakers this year, Knicks during Bernard King's prime). But you can't deny that the circumstances around the Suns last year made it impossible to get too wrapped up about what Amare was doing. Nobody pays attention to 29 win teams.

What is the problem here? Okay maybe I should have been more specific and said C. Big men in this era suck, you can be an elite big man and be an average player at the same time. I'm comparing him to other players at his position, not all players in the NBA. You have Shaq and then the rest. Z, Yao, Miller and Big Ben fighting for the 2nd best centre in the league.

Z's numbers last year/this year:
15.3ppg, 7.8rpg, 1.7bpg, 31.3mpg
17.8ppg, 7.8rpg, 1.8bpg, 33.8mpg

Miller's number last year/this year:
14.1ppg, 10.1rpg, 1.2bpg, 36.4mpg
16.2ppg, 8.3rpg, 1.1bpg, 35.3mpg

I won't repeat Yao's numbers but I think the conclusion is obvious. And it's unfair to list Big Ben's numbers since his effects on games are minimal on the offensive end (but did you know that over the last 2 years his production on the boards have fallen off by 4 boards a game? Suprising.) And check it out, none of the 3 are the focal point of their teams' offense. Lebron averages 18 shots a game in Cleveland. Sacramento has a lot of shots to go around for everyone (but on the other hand you can't say Miller's playing with bad players). And T-Mac averages 19 shots a game.

Another point about Miller. Here's another example of what happens when a guy goes from a bad team to a good team. He put up 13/8 for Chicago and nobody cared. Got traded to Indiana, put up 13/8 and played in the ASG. Still don't think team records make people sit up and take notice?

He's an average player who happens to be one of the best at the weakest position in the NBA. He's an 'elite' C but just an average player. I'll go even further. He's an average player putting up good numbers because the offence is forced to go through him.

Happy?

Except I don't agree with it at all. In my opinion he has been mis-used and put into positions that does not maximize his talent. But even despite of that, he has put up enough numbers to make him an "elite center" as you said, so maybe he's not just average. As I said, average players don't put up 30ppg against Shaq. (BTW, has anybody else noticed that Shaq's production has fallen off a bit the last 2 years? He's down to 20/11/2.8 this year. Not that far off of Yao's 19/9/1.4. Worrying.)

Also, it's obvious that Yao has been putting up better numbers Z and Miller, and is competing the title of "second best center" with Big Ben and Miller. Would you call Miller and Z average players? Or how about Big Ben? I wouldn't call those players average either.

Ask yourself. Has his all-star appearances been because of his performance or because he's chinese? He's been voted in his last 2 years. 13/8 isn't all star numbers, you could argue is Yao's 19/9 really more deserving than Randolph's or Brand's 20/10. Remember it's an all-star game, team records don't matter.

You don't have to tell me the NBA all-star voting system is out of whack. I mean, VC starting and winning the most votes all these years? What the heck? Obviously, somethings out of whack.

But the real reason behind Yao's starts/appearances have to do with positions, not race. Brand plays the same position as Duncan and KG. Now if either one of them plays C, then I'd take them over Yao in a heart beat for the ASG the last 2 years. But they don't, and they get offended when you wonder why they don't, that's why Yao gets the nod over Brand. Randolph is different, he has a problem in that nobody likes Randolph. You don't get caught with drugs, spit on fans, act like a general punk, and get too many votes to the All-Star game (Rider anyone?).

Running and dunking the length of the court with the ball is athleticism. Young Bradley was more athletic than Yao. Yao just isn't that athletic. He doesn't have much going for him besides height. Not quick by big man standards, horrible reaction time, not a great leaper nor is he a quick leaper.

Bradley is 31 now I was talking about him in his early 20s. What athleticism he once had is gone now because of age and confidence.

And Bradley was a quick, great leaper with great reaction time? Really? You are the first one I've ever heard say that. Like I've said, I've seen Yao run the length of the court and dunk too, when allowed to by JVG, who has a rather unbalanced affection for the half-court game. Now if you flip your argument around, then you have something. Bradley never had anything but height, no shooting touch, no passing skills, no court vision, no court sense, all of which Yao has in spades.

By the way. Uh.. Bradley is better now than he ever was in his early 20s. Like I said before, his best year came when he was 27. If you look at his career stats (and think back to how his influence over a game has changed over the course of his career), it's obvious that he started out terrible, a scrawny player with no skills that got by on his height that got better and stronger, enough to actually put up 14/8/3 a game for about 2 or 3 years before fading out past his prime. I don't know how you can twist it all to tell me that the Bradley that averages 8/8/3 while playing 28.8mpg is in anyway better than then 14/8/3 playing 31mpg.

It's interesting you are making excuses for Bradley yet not accepting any explanation for Yao's lack of development this year (for he did improve last year) other than "he's another Shawn Bradley".

[spooks]

Dominating on a bad team gets you nothing, you know that

Then ignore the 2nd half of last season. Through the first 20 games of the season Amare has been posting up MVP like numbers (if you factor in last year he's been at that level for 50-60 games now) Yao just has to put up 28/10 for a month and I'll shut up. He's been given every opportunity to post up huge numbers and he doesn't for various reasons.

won't repeat Yao's numbers but I think the conclusion is obvious.

Yao
18.1 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 1.0 apg, .52 spg 1.48 bpg, 32 mpg

Z
17.4 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 1.4 apg, .95 spg, 1.65 bpg, 34 mpg

Looks pretty close to me certainly not as obvious as you say.

Not that far off of Yao's 19/9/1.4

Not that far off? Shaq gets nearly 3 extra boards , ~3x the assists, ~2x the blocks per game, while shooting 9% higher from the field. So when Shaq is compared to Yao they're not that far off.

Z and Miller have similar numbers to Yao and conclusion is obvious? Hmmm.....

But the real reason behind Yao's starts/appearances have to do with positions, not race

Yao has started the last 2 years because of race, everyone knows it. There's no way Shaq should be coming off the bench behind him. This may be the first year he actually deserves to start for the west.

Yao = west VC. He will always start no matter his numbers.

And Bradley was a quick, great leaper with great reaction time?

No, no and no. Bradley was just another big stiff but he was more athletic than Yao. Bradley wasn't shoved down our throats as the next big thing, Yao is. He's an okay shooter, nothing special about his court vision or passing abilities.

By the way. Uh.. Bradley is better now than he ever was in his early 20s

Uh for real? I didn't know that most NBA players get better as they get older.

yet not accepting any explanation for Yao's lack of development this year (for he did improve last year)

You can argue that his stats are up therefore he's cleary improving but his role in the teams offense has increased each year. If he has improved, it's marginal at best

Statistically he improved but has he improved as a player? If he has it's not noticable. Problems he has in his rookie year are still there. Stamina is still crap (always will be), not a good shot blocker or rebounder probably never will be.

Yao is progressing almost as quickly as Bradley was. Keep it up Yao, you'll be the next big thing in no time.

[Moinllieon]

Then ignore the 2nd half of last season. Through the first 20 games of the season Amare has been posting up MVP like numbers (if you factor in last year he's been at that level for 50-60 games now) Yao just has to put up 28/10 for a month and I'll shut up. He's been given every opportunity to post up huge numbers and he doesn't for various reasons.

Excuse him for not putting up 28/10. Not everybody could and as I said, I don't pretend for one moment that the fact Yao hasn't done so isn't disappointing.

Yao
18.1 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 1.0 apg, .52 spg 1.48 bpg, 32 mpg

Z
17.4 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 1.4 apg, .95 spg, 1.65 bpg, 34 mpg

Looks pretty close to me certainly not as obvious as you say.

Last 2 years please. A trendline is nice to be established. If anything you can say that Z has benefitted greatly from Lebron's improved play while Yao has suffered through massive roster turnover.

Not that far off? Shaq gets nearly 3 extra boards , ~3x the assists, ~2x the blocks per game, while shooting 9% higher from the field. So when Shaq is compared to Yao they're not that far off.

Far off is different from obvious. It's obvious that even now, Shaq is better than Yao, much more obvious than the difference between Yao and Z. But far off is what Shaq was doing 2 years ago as compared to Yao. Their numbers were not even close. Just a matter of degree and usage, hope I cleared that up. One way or another, Shaq's production is falling and it's depressing to think so.

Z and Miller have similar numbers to Yao and conclusion is obvious? Hmmm.....

Hmmm.... conclusion is obvious, especially considering how much younger Yao is than those 2. Miller was 27 last year and Z reached 27 2 years ago. This is as good as their career will ever get, Yao is only 23, give him another 4 years. Significance of the age of 27? Scroll down.

Yao has started the last 2 years because of race, everyone knows it. There's no way Shaq should be coming off the bench behind him. This may be the first year he actually deserves to start for the west.

Sorry, did you say start? I thought you were just talking about all-star appearences (because you certainly used the phrase "all-star appearence" instead of "all-star starts"). I do think the fact that Yao starting is a joke. But that doesn't mean he didn't deserve to be in the game. VC, on the other hand, I don't think even belongs in the games. You asked me why Yao appeared in the game instead of Brand, and I gave it to you. Why was Maglore in the game last year? Same reason Yao was.

Yao = west VC. He will always start no matter his numbers.

True, but Yao should be there, VC shouldn't even be in the game.

No, no and no. Bradley was just another big stiff but he was more athletic than Yao. Bradley wasn't shoved down our throats as the next big thing, Yao is. He's an okay shooter, nothing special about his court vision or passing abilities.

The reason you don't know anything about Yao's court vision and passing abilities is because JVG plays him in the low post instead of high post. In the low post he has only half of the court available to him to pass, how can he use his court vision then? However, put him in the high post and the whole court opens up to him. Remember that pass he made in his rookie year that everyone went gaga over (needlessly if you ask me)? He was in the high post when he made that pass.

Uh for real? I didn't know that most NBA players get better as they get older.

They are better at 27 than they are at 21. In fact, most players reach their peak in that range from ages 26 to 28.

1) MJ at 21 averaged 28/6/6, at 25 he was 35/8/8, at 27 he was 31/6/5 and won his first Championship.
2) Bird at 21 was barely getting onto Indiana State's basketball team, at 27 he was 24/10/6 (won his first MVP). Then at 28 he upped the ante and went 29/10/6 (career high in points).
3) Hakeem at 22 was 20/12/3.. at 27 he was 25/14/5.... at 31 he was 28/12/4 and won his first MVP.
4) Ewing at 23 was 20/9/2... at 27 was 28/11/4 (his best statistical year).
5) David Robinson had a delayed start, obviously, at 24 he was 24/12/4 (very close to his peak), at 27 he was 30/11/3 (and won his MVP).
6) Shaq at 20 was 23/14/3... at 27 he was 30/14/3 (won his first MVP, his first AS MVP, and his first championship).
7) Magic was 18/8/7 at 20... was 24/6/12 at 27 (won his first MVP).
8) Pippen at 22 was 8/4/2/1, at 23 was 14/6/3/2, at 26 was 21/8/7/2 (probably his best year considering he was sharing time with MJ), at 28 was 22/9/6/3 (his only full year without MJ, probably shoulda won MVP).
9) Jason Kidd started out 12/5/8/2 at 20... by 27 he was 17/6/10/2... at 28 he got traded to NJ.
10) Billups was 11/2/4 at 21, at 26 he "finally got it" and went 16/4/4 for Detroit, he turned 27 last year and went 17/3/6 (won Finals MVP).
11) Ben Wallace was 1/2/0/0 at 22, at 26 he has his first year rebounding over 13, at 27 he wins his first DPOY award.
12) Guess at which age Isiah won his first Championship?
13) Payton was 7/3/6/2 at 22, 9/4/6/2 at 23, 19/4/7/3 at 27 (1996), want to guess when Payton won his only DPOY and made his only finals appearence? Yeah, 1996.
14) Speaking of the Sonics that year, want to guess how old Kemp was in 1996? 26.
15) At 26, 27, 28, Stockton had his best years in his career in terms of statistics, having his 3 career highs in ppg, apg, and steals. Oh yeah, he was 6/1/5/1 at 22 and 8/2/8/2 at 23.
16) Want to guess how old Moses Malone was when he won the Finals MVP? 27.
17) Rasheed was 10/5/1 at 21, 13/5/1 at 24, 19/8/2 at 27.
18) After his career soured at Washington for 3 years, guess how old Webber was when he got traded to Sac-town? 26. The next year, he averaged 27/11/4/2. By far his best year.
19) Remember Brad Miller? First ASG? 26.
20) At 22, Jalen Rose averaged 8/3/5, at age 26 he was 11(career high)/3/2. At 27 he went 18/5/4. At 28 he went 20/5/6.
21) Age at which Van Exel made his only All Star appearence: 26.
22) Age at which Glen Rice made the first of his 3 consecutive ASG: 28.
23) Age at which Mitch Richmond made the first of his 6 consecutive ASG: 27.
24) Chris Mullin was 14/2/2 at 22, 15/2/3 at 23. Made the leap at 25 (still 2 years away for Yao) by going 26/6/5
25) John Starks: 4/1/1 at 23, 17/3/5 at 27(NBA All-Defense only time), 19/3/6 at 28 (made only ASG, Knicks made Finals).
26) Tom Chambers' first ASG: at age 27.
27) Sam Cassell: at 24: 7/2/3, at 27: 20/3/8 (beating previous career highs in by 4ppg and 2asg)
28) KG: won first MVP at 27.
29) Doug Christie at 22: 6/2/2, at 26: 14/5/4 (all career highs at that point), at 27: 16/5/4
30) Bernard King's THAT year, when he singlehandly beat Detroit in the playoffs: 27.

I could go on. But I think 30 example is enough for you to notice the trend. Apparenly, things just come together for players at age 27. Now, in light of all of this data... is it suprprising that Bradley had his best year at age 27 and then fell off?

Statistically he improved but has he improved as a player? If he has it's not noticable. Problems he has in his rookie year are still there. Stamina is still crap (always will be), not a good shot blocker or rebounder probably never will be.

Give it time. Although, like I said, playing him at high post would help alot in terms of stamina.

Yao is progressing almost as quickly as Bradley was. Keep it up Yao, you'll be the next big thing in no time.

In 3 or 4 years. Why not? MJ had to wait that long for his first Championship, as did Isiah. Payton and Kemp waited that long to truly become a force. Big Ben waited that long to be "good". Billups waited that long to finally redeem himself. Alot of players have shown similiar "progress" and does not really reach their "peak" until 27. Of course, there are exceptions, Amare being one of them. Boo hoo, Yao isn't advancing at the same pace as Amare, doesn't mean he couldn't become dominant. Give him to 27, if he still doesn't get any better than this, I'll join in saying that he never will make it. After all, Hakeem only turned truly dominant at 31. At least Yao is ahead of him.

[spooks]

Hmmm.... conclusion is obvious, especially considering how much younger Yao is than those 2. Miller was 27 last year and Z reached 27 2 years ago

We're talking about age now? Not once have I said I wouldn't take Yao over Miller or Z. I'd be a moron to not take the player who's the youngest and putting up similar numbers. Age is the only reason I would take him over the other 2, not because of his performance. Numbers show that the 3 are quite similar statistically.

Yao should be there

Being there and deserving to be there are different things. Yao's 13/8 isn't all-star numbers neither is Magloire's 14/10. There's no rule that says the West needs to send 3 Cs.

how can he use his court vision then?

Being in the low post never hurts a player's court vision and passing ability. Shaq gets nearly 3 assists per game from the low post, ditto for Duncan. Hell I've ridiculed Amare for his lack of passing skills and he gets nearly the same amount of assists as Yao.

Payton and Kemp waited that long to truly become a force. Big Ben waited that long to be "good". Billups waited that long to finally redeem himself

Wallace wasn't even drafted. Kemp, Payton and Billups were never shoved down our throats as the next superstar without the numbers or significant signs of improvement.

He'll never be a great defender, shotblocker or rebounder, stamina problems, improvements seem to have flat-lined in his 3rd NBA season and worst of all he's PASSIVE

Passiveness is a big no no for a dominant player.

They are better at 27 than they are at 21

That's a given all those players and numbers weren't necessary. Refer to my Yao's progress has flat-line blurb above. Yao has already grown stagnant as a player his 3rd year in. At his current level of progress Yao at 27 shouldn't be that much better than Yao at 23.

[Long]

I don't want to be racist here. But Yao will never improve whilst he still behaves like a "Eastern" Asian. Soft and always bowing down to the whites. I saw a lot of that when I was in Bangkok for holidays. Asians bowing and throwing themselves at white people. Made me sick really....

He's got to be more like at "Western" Asian who sailed to the shores of the US/AUS with no money in thier pocket, and through sheer determination and agresssion work themselves and become rich. The menatilty of "i'm the best".

Until he gets that... He won't improve. He's soft like butter at the moment...

[Long]

Woah! Not a pretty sight.... Kobe Bryant the past couple of games needing to put up 24 shots to score 20 points, and again this afternoon, around 22 shots for his 20pts in a close game back to back.

For goodness skaes, CHris Mhim is scoring 25pts off just 18 shots - give him the god dam ball... Also Jumaine Jones has 20 points off just 10 shots...

Kobe Bryant - missed shot - Kobe Bryant - missed shot - is all he's logging on the score sheet the last few games...

[Moinllieon]

We're talking about age now? Not once have I said I wouldn't take Yao over Miller or Z. I'd be a moron to not take the player who's the youngest and putting up similar numbers. Age is the only reason I would take him over the other 2, not because of his performance. Numbers show that the 3 are quite similar statistically.

Correction, Yao is putting up slightly better numbers at a younger age. That's a big difference.

Being there and deserving to be there are different things. Yao's 13/8 isn't all-star numbers neither is Magloire's 14/10. There's no rule that says the West needs to send 3 Cs.

The fans don't pick the replacements, the coaches do and they are obligated to pick a well rounded team with some players in all positions. So Yao does deserve to be there.

Being in the low post never hurts a player's court vision and passing ability. Shaq gets nearly 3 assists per game from the low post, ditto for Duncan. Hell I've ridiculed Amare for his lack of passing skills and he gets nearly the same amount of assists as Yao.

It limits his options for where to pass it. Duncan and Shaq are both surrounded by spot up shooters who can take advantage of their prescence in the low post, Amare's assist numbers are helped by the fast breaking style that the Suns have. On top of that, there's really not many off the ball cutters on the Rockets. T-Mac is really the only slasher on that team but he plays better with the ball in his hands. Noticed how after several games JVG adjusted and put the ball in T-Mac's hands and let him do stuff? That's adjusting, now just take Yao into the high post, which would just open up a whole host of possibilities for playing T-Mac and Yao.

Wallace wasn't even drafted. Kemp, Payton and Billups were never shoved down our throats as the next superstar without the numbers or significant signs of improvement.

I've not heard anyone say anything positive about Yao's play this year and you have to admit (looks around), his progress from his rookie year to last year was quite promising.

He'll never be a great defender, shotblocker or rebounder, stamina problems, improvements seem to have flat-lined in his 3rd NBA season and worst of all he's PASSIVE

Passiveness is a big no no for a dominant player.

That could be nourished as well, or at least adjusted for (moving him to the high post would allow him to be beat up as much and the times he does go into the low post he wouldn't be as hesitant).

That's a given all those players and numbers weren't necessary. Refer to my Yao's progress has flat-line blurb above. Yao has already grown stagnant as a player his 3rd year in. At his current level of progress Yao at 27 shouldn't be that much better than Yao at 23.

Uh for real? I didn't know that most NBA players get better as they get older.

Maybe you were being sarcastic and I missed it. Anyways, maybe I should have put up more detailed numbers. A good number of players, especially centers, kinda stagnates after their 2nd year for a year or two until they somehow "breakthrough" at 27. I can't explain it really, but that's what statitistics show. Also, we are only 20 games into the season, maybe it's a little too early to make such a call, remember, like you said, Amare really came on in the latter part of last year. Let's wait until T-Mac and Yao get used to each other (assuming they ever do) and see what happens.

[duguxiaojing]

That's a given all those players and numbers weren't necessary. Refer to my Yao's progress has flat-line blurb above. Yao has already grown stagnant as a player his 3rd year in. At his current level of progress Yao at 27 shouldn't be that much better than Yao at 23.

na...i dont think so.. i mean anything is possible but i think Yao is just having a bad season... same with Tmac. I think he'll develope into a more dominant Rick smits if he gains more body strenth.

As for how great he is at the moment i think he can be considered a top tier centre in *this era* of basketball due to the lack of any hall of fame centeres. I mean he is having a average season number wise due to his incosistency and it looks like he hasnt really improved but statistically he is about equal to randolph and illgauskas. Plus he has more *potential* to be great. Whether he developes into that player or not who knows. But at the moment the only centre that's definetly better would be shaquille.

Wallace wasn't even drafted. Kemp, Payton and Billups were never shoved down our throats as the next superstar without the numbers or significant signs of improvement.

True but it was due to his successful first two season that lead people into believing that he was the next "great" center. If you remember in early scouting reports almost everyone thought he would need at least 3-5 years to fully develope.

Woah! Not a pretty sight.... Kobe Bryant the past couple of games needing to put up 24 shots to score 20 points, and again this afternoon, around 22 shots for his 20pts in a close game back to back.

...right lets let Chris put up twenty shots a game and see what happens to LA. Hell tell kobe to stop shooting and see what happens to LA. He might be shooting a $hit percentage what 38percent(?) but he's forcing the defense to react to him and opening up shots for teammates. By the way his having the best season stats wise at 26-7-7 and La is doing a heck of a lot better than most people thought they would. Its not their fault the west is so damn stacked.

[Moinllieon]

...right lets let Chris put up twenty shots a game and see what happens to LA. Hell tell kobe to stop shooting and see what happens to LA. He might be shooting a $hit percentage what 38percent(?) but he's forcing the defense to react to him and opening up shots for teammates. By the way his having the best season stats wise at 26-7-7 and La is doing a heck of a lot better than most people thought they would. Its not their fault the west is so damn stacked.

Sometimes, the thing that annoys more than Kobe's shot-taking is during stretches of time he would bring the ball up, do a couple of dribble moves, and then either pull-up for a fadeaway or drive for a near impossible J. Zero passes, zero points, zero tries for any kind of set offense, and it leaves a bad taste in your mouth watching it. Another thing is that whenever he does decide to pass it rather than shoot it, you get a feeling that he's doing it not out of trust in his teammates or trying to get them involved, but to prove a point. That'll be something he needs to work through.

By the way, Kobe just uh... turned on Malone, after talking all the sweet talk for about a week, he steered the conversation to a really really ugly place. Accusing Malone of making a pass at his wife.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1944994

Malone has taken the high road here and said that he never had any intention of doing that and apologizes to Kobe and his wife for anything that they might have taken as inappropriate. This begs the question, at least for me, how the hell did he fake being so friendly to Malone over the last week when he knew this was going on?

[machiavelli]

Sometimes, the thing that annoys more than Kobe's shot-taking is during stretches of time he would bring the ball up, do a couple of dribble moves, and then either pull-up for a fadeaway or drive for a near impossible J. Zero passes, zero points, zero tries for any kind of set offense, and it leaves a bad taste in your mouth watching it. Another thing is that whenever he does decide to pass it rather than shoot it, you get a feeling that he's doing it not out of trust in his teammates or trying to get them involved, but to prove a point. That'll be something he needs to work through.

By the way, Kobe just uh... turned on Malone, after talking all the sweet talk for about a week, he steered the conversation to a really really ugly place. Accusing Malone of making a pass at his wife.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1944994

Malone has taken the high road here and said that he never had any intention of doing that and apologizes to Kobe and his wife for anything that they might have taken as inappropriate. This begs the question, at least for me, how the hell did he fake being so friendly to Malone over the last week when he knew this was going on?

Kobe is a nut job and I hope he drive the L.A. Lakers straight to the lottery. I live in Philadelphia (Kobe went to Lower Marion high, which is Upper darby right next to Philadelphia) everyone here hates him, my friend used to go to Lower Marion High and he told me that the high school retired Kobe's jersey but almost no one attended the ceremony. Oh and we did boo him at the 2002? All-stars game.

Right now the only team I am rooting for is the Houston Rockets, yet they are terrible. Yao Ming always look so tired, playing basketball year round isn't healthy and it's taking a toll on his endurance.

[spooks]

I've not heard anyone say anything positive about Yao's play this year and you have to admit (looks around), his progress from his rookie year to last year was quite promising.

His play so far deserves no praise or any positive comments. Yao is consistently inconsistent.

Yes he has made progress statistically I stand by my opinion that he has not improved much as a player. He hasn't improved his weaknesses (defending, rebounding, shotblocking) probably a bit stronger, low post play has gotten a bit better. He has made some progress but it's marginal at best.

That could be nourished as well

Agressiveness isn't something easily taught, Yao grew up in China where dunking, taunting, agressive play in general were looked down upon.

He's been playing passive basketball (by NBA standards) for as long as he's been playing basketball. Yall know the saying, can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Maybe you were being sarcastic and I missed it.

Yes it was sarcasm should have used an emoticon.

I think he'll develope into a more dominant Rick smits if he gains more body strenth.

Common misconception about Yao. He's strong...very strong look how massive his legs are. Yao get's pushed around because he plays weak (not a jab at Yao) he doesn't know how to use his height and strength to his advantage...yet.

Dump Ewing pickup Hakeem or Moses Malone (both have said publicly they would love to work with Yao) maybe then we can see some bigger strides.

you get a feeling that he's doing it not out of trust in his teammates or trying to get them involved, but to prove a point

That has always been a part of Kobe's game that irked me. It's pretty obvious why Mihm has big games. It's like Kobe is trying to send a message to Shaq.

[jay_z]

yao has very few assists because rockets perimeter players besides tmac can't make a basket if the basket is twice as wide. jvg should play boki nachbar, who can make an outside shot.

yao didn't deserve to be in the all-star his rookie year, but was last year. he was clearly the 2nd best center last year.

you guys don't have to worry about yao. he will be a dominant player before he's done.

the main reason tmac handles the ball more is because rockets PGs play like china national team PGs. all of them can't bring the ball pass half court. charlie ward and tyronn lue, before they were hurt, couldn't handle the pressure.

[Long]

Well Kobe sure knows how to make friends...

The man's nothing but a 'snitch' on supposed friends and teammates... and I bet Jerry Buss is sitting back in his office thinking - "What Da F was I thinking to keep Kobe". I'm sure all of the All-Star players around the league aren't rushing to LA when they hit FA knowing that Kobe is still a Laker. No one wants to pit up with his sh*t.

Anytime the pressure is on - his tactics is to deflect the blame eslewhere...

Kobe is going to be one of these dudes who had better look after thier money... Because when he's finished playing basketball he's going be one of these ex-celebraties that people when they see down the beach kick dirt in thier eyes...

Even happened with Byron Scott despite the fact that he was an all round good guy.

[spooks]

you guys don't have to worry about yao. he will be a dominant player before he's done.

Will? Dominant?

From what's he shown us the last 2 years, you should be happy if he becomes a 2nd tier player (behind 1st tier players like KG, Duncan and Shaq)

Which is still pretty damn good but I reserve 'dominant' for players that truly deserve it.

I bet Jerry Buss is sitting back in his office thinking - "What Da F was I thinking to keep Kobe".

Would you have done any differently if you were Dr. Buss? If it comes down to keeping an aging big man who wants nearly 30 million a year or a much younger talented perimeter player. The choice should be pretty obvious for an owner.

Regardless of who he is off the courts Kobe is still performing on it. He's probably the 2-3 best perimeter player this year.

[Moinllieon]

Common misconception about Yao. He's strong...very strong look how massive his legs are. Yao get's pushed around because he plays weak (not a jab at Yao) he doesn't know how to use his height and strength to his advantage...yet.

Dump Ewing pickup Hakeem or Moses Malone (both have said publicly they would love to work with Yao) maybe then we can see some bigger strides.

Hakeem would be a better fit if you ask me, because Moses had very little finese in his game so Hakeem might better relate to Yao about how to incorporate his finese and all that other stuff in his game along with, obviously, what it takes to be dominant. (Apparently, the Rockets have actually turned down both Hakeem and Moses in favour of Ewing. Who do we to thank for that? JVG. )

Would you have done any differently if you were Dr. Buss? If it comes down to keeping an aging big man who wants nearly 30 million a year or a much younger talented perimeter player. The choice should be pretty obvious for an owner.

I'd done the same, but that doesn't mean I'd feel any better about it.

Regardless of who he is off the courts Kobe is still performing on it. He's probably the 2-3 best perimeter player this year.

Of course, being the best perimeter player around doesn't mean squat if nobody wants to play with you.

[Long]

Unless Kobe changes his attitude, I can see a "me against the world" scenario happening again... Guys like Lamar and co probably won't stick around when thier contract expires. Also other All-Star calibre players won't be wanting to play with him either....

Remember a while back when Allen Iverson had the same problem with his attitude. Came into the league making sily statements like:
- CHarles Barkley is a con-artist for fooling the 36ers fans that he'd win a Championship but did not - hey Allen, you still haven't won yet buddy so don't talk - bagging out someone who gave thier heart and soul to a franchise was a bad idea - people like me still remember those stupid comments

- MJ who da F is he? What has he done? Why the F should I respect him? - Same goes here - AI never got my respect and is still Championshipless - I guess he finally realises why MJ derserves to be respected....

He said more and more silly stuff and hey presto... No big FAs want to play with him, and poor AI after making it into an NBA finals all by himself, can't even come close there now. He's now asking for help - he needs someone else....

[- L1n -]

u no wat houston should hire, ewing(already have), Hakeem, Moses and Jabbar and robinson, ok schdeule for yao 1 hr with each center everyday, 5 hr training schedule away from team, u can't go wrong lol, alltough i feel by the 3rd hr he will be dead and out.lol

[WuTang_Heroes]

u no wat houston should hire, ewing(already have), Hakeem, Moses and Jabbar and robinson, ok schdeule for yao 1 hr with each center everyday, 5 hr training schedule away from team, u can't go wrong lol, alltough i feel by the 3rd hr he will be dead and out.lol

Why don't you pick Gheorge Muresan, Manute Bol, Bill Walton, and Shawn Bradley himself.. lol

[spooks]

Moses is one of the greatest rebounders ever I'd love to see him work with Yao in that department.

people like me still remember those stupid comments

People say stupid stuff when they're young. Can't hold it against them their entire life

AI never got my respect and is still Championshipless

You're probably in the minority, AI is one of the most respected guys by players and fans. Couple years back guess who was the first player to offer their starting position to MJ? I'll give you a hint. Wasn't T-Mac or VC.

No big FAs want to play with him

Philly not signing big name FAs has nothing to do with Iverson. They didn't have cap space to be throwing around $$$ to get marquee players.

[Moinllieon]

In fairness to AI, his comment about "not respecting MJ" was directed toward respecting him on the court. AI was saying that he did have the utmost respect and awe towards MJ, but when it came to game time, he couldn't let that respect get in the way of actually playing and attacking MJ on the court. All of which is true.

AI's image "problem" came about more due to his clashes with Larry Brown than any comments he ever made. Among basketball purists and most media pundits, Larry Brown holds a pretty special place.