NBA Discussion

[Moinllieon]

Good ridance to Jim Jackson... He can try and reclaim his all-star form with the Hornets...

When he reports to the team that is.

[Moinllieon]

An interesting article about Liu Wei and, more general, basketball prospects in China. Interesting read. Ric Bucher is a bit too cynical if you ask me, but he does raise some good points and concerns.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/column...ric&id=1955953

[James Ko]

Was Jim Jackson an all star before ???

[Vicious]

Was Jim Jackson an all star before ???

yeah maybe what he meant was "an all star calibre" because i dont remember Jim Jackson ever being an all star either. Frankly i dont know why there are haters on JJ in houston, i thought he was a good complement to Tmac when Yao wasn't effective. For some reason he's become a journeyman even though he would start on most teams.

[Vicious]

Rockets are now 6 - 1 without Jim Jackson in the line-up.

Good ridance to Jim Jackson... He can try and reclaim his all-star form with the Hornets...

The Rockets have only played 4 games since Jim Jackson left Houston, i think it's way too early to say they're better off. People usually dont get this excited with wins over Utah, Milwaukee, and Cleveland (w/o LB) - they only combine for 37 wins total.

And the wins they had when JJ was DNP was against philly and new orleans. yipee. forgive me if i dont jump on the bandwagon just yet.

we'll see how they do in the next 6 games, against some of the better teams like Suns, Mavs, and Spurs.

[Long]

And the wins they had when JJ was DNP was against philly and new orleans. yipee. forgive me if i dont jump on the bandwagon just yet.

And the Spurs. I'll say they'll do a lot better now that Jim Jackson is gone.

It's no secret why Jim Jackson is an NBA journeyman. It's because he doesn't fit well into any team. If he was a final 'piece' to the puzzle for a Championship team, many teams would have acquired him including LA a couple of years back when he was on FA... But fact is no one wants a 'selfish' 4th quarter manic who destroys a teams chances of winning games.

It's full circle for Jim Jackson. When he first entered the league he refused to play for Dallas, the team that drafted him, and held out and finally played the last 26 games. Then when Dallas had a nucleas of players to build around, aka 'Triple J' in Jim Jackson, Jason Kidd, and Jamal Mashburn, he chose to fued with Jason Kidd, causing the break-up of the promising trio

He began his career refusing to play for teams... No on one wants or needs him

[jay_z]

An interesting article about Liu Wei and, more general, basketball prospects in China. Interesting read. Ric Bucher is a bit too cynical if you ask me, but he does raise some good points and concerns.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/column...ric&id=1955953

liu wei is too slow and doesn't have great ball handling and outside shooting skills to play in the nba. unless the chinese learn to dribble first before passing and shooting, you won't see any chinese player playing PG or SG in the nba.

For some reason he's become a journeyman even though he would start on most teams.

jj as starter for most teams? you gotta be kidding. the only reason he wanted to play for the rockets is because only jvg put in the starting lineup. the dude still thinks he's playing for dallas.

[Moinllieon]

It's full circle for Jim Jackson. When he first entered the league he refused to play for Dallas, the team that drafted him, and held out and finally played the last 26 games. Then when Dallas had a nucleas of players to build around, aka 'Triple J' in Jim Jackson, Jason Kidd, and Jamal Mashburn, he chose to fued with Jason Kidd, causing the break-up of the promising trio

Actually, most people blame that on Kidd, though I'm sure Jackson was just as guilty, takes 2 to tango, after all. If you ask me, Mashburn got the raw deal on that one.

[Long]

Actually, most people blame that on Kidd, though I'm sure Jackson was just as guilty, takes 2 to tango, after all. If you ask me, Mashburn got the raw deal on that one.

If I remember correctly it was over some woman wasn't it? Started to date Jason Kidd and apparently was stolen by Jim Jackson.... Or was it the other way around??

[jay_z]

If I remember correctly it was over some woman wasn't it? Started to date Jason Kidd and apparently was stolen by Jim Jackson.... Or was it the other way around??

toni braxton. but, that wasn't the main reason why they didn't get along.

[bliss]

And the Spurs. I'll say they'll do a lot better now that Jim Jackson is gone.

Cmon now, the Spurs game was decided ENTIRELY by T'Mac. I dunno, I kinda liked JJ on thr Rockets, but we definitely gotta let things play out before deciding. From what I've read and heard, JJ seemed to be the leader of the Rockets in the locker room. At least thats what teammates said, when asked by reporters. He also seemed to be an extremely hard worker and was pretty solid for the team the entire season. I, for one, was extremely shocked that they would trade him. Oh well.

[Vicious]

And the Spurs. I'll say they'll do a lot better now that Jim Jackson is gone.

He began his career refusing to play for teams... No on one wants or needs him

oh yeah, i forgot the one point win over the Spurs. It still doesn't tell me that houston is better without JJ though. Despite your constant assurance he was a ball hog and turnover prone, and maybe a downright evil person, I still see him being productive on every team he has been on.

jj as starter for most teams? you gotta be kidding. the only reason he wanted to play for the rockets is because only jvg put in the starting lineup. the dude still thinks he's playing for dallas.

No, i really wasn't kidding. Seems to me he's better than the starting F-G on most teams, especially considering the East conference. Of course those teams wouldn't be Spurs or Sonics but I bet there's more than 15 teams who'll be willing to start him.

[Long]

I still see him being productive on every team he has been on..

I don't deny that he has been productive. But that's for the first 3 quarters only.

What gets him in trouble and angers irrates teammates from Jamal Mashburn, Jason Kidd, Allen Iverson, Isaiah Rider, Chris Webber, and no probably T-Mac is the way he plays in the 4th quarters. He has lost a lot of games in his career for the teams in plays for in the 4th. That's why I gave up on him a long time ago...

[Long]

I see. Apparently you and I have different scales when it comes to what to like/hate. I guess for you it's not ok for VC and Carmelo to be jerks but not a problem when Randolph or Sprewell acts worse. I mean, God forbid that you'd lose interest in the NBA, what would David Stern do without Artest keeping you interested in the NBA?

All Carter and 'Melo' does is whine and moan. They do nothing positive for the game/NBA other than attract media attention on themsleves. Men of "words" so to say. Even though Melo got into a brawl at some nightclub that was totally 'unncessary' and 'unbasketball related'.

Sprewell, Zach, and but especially Artest does things positively to promote the game around the world. They make a big impact during games, and at practice. These guys are men of "action". Choking coaches, spitting on fans, punching them out are all great things to show players are actually passionate about the game and love the game....

Whining and moaning like VC and 'Melo' gives you the impression that they're nothing more than a bunch of 'spoilt brats'. Whilst Artest, Zach, and Spewell are genuine 'bad boys'.

I hate spoilt brats more than bad boys.

[Vicious]

I don't deny that he has been productive. But that's for the first 3 quarters only.

What gets him in trouble and angers irrates teammates from Jamal Mashburn, Jason Kidd, Allen Iverson, Isaiah Rider, Chris Webber, and no probably T-Mac is the way he plays in the 4th quarters. He has lost a lot of games in his career for the teams in plays for in the 4th. That's why I gave up on him a long time ago...

maybe, i dont keep track of every single thing he does in every single quarter. This isn't the first time someone has told me a player is bad only because of what he does in the 4th quarter. I dont have any way to check what he does during the 4th quarters besides what you say he does.

[jay_z]

No, i really wasn't kidding. Seems to me he's better than the starting F-G on most teams, especially considering the East conference. Of course those teams wouldn't be Spurs or Sonics but I bet there's more than 15 teams who'll be willing to start him.

15 teams? you must be smoking something. if he were that good, many GMs would try to acquire him.

is jim jackson better these SFs:

odom?
Stojakovic?
quetin richardson?
magette?
ak47?
carmelo?
posey?
josh howard?
al harrington?
ghill?
tim thomas?
vince carter or richard jefferson?
lebron?
tayshun prince?
stephen jackson?

[Long]

15 teams? you must be smoking something. if he were that good, many GMs would try to acquire him.

Jim Jackson has played for the following teams:

Dallas
New Jersey
Philadelphia
Golden State
Portland
Atlanta
Cleveland
Miami
Sacramento
Houston

Teams like New Jersey, Philadelphia, Atlanta, could probably do with him. But those teams will probably not touch him with a pole. I noticed he hasn't even shown up for the NO Hornets yet. Maybe he's still fueding with Jamal Mashburn who's still on the roster, despite being injured, but who knows.

Fact is after the Jim Jackson expierence no GMs would want him back, nor are many teams now willing to try him... There's a reason he's a journeyman and worst, a championshipless one...

[Vicious]

15 teams? you must be smoking something. if he were that good, many GMs would try to acquire him.

is jim jackson better these SFs:

odom?
Stojakovic?
quetin richardson?
magette?
ak47?
carmelo?
posey?
josh howard?
al harrington?
ghill?
tim thomas?
vince carter or richard jefferson?
lebron?
tayshun prince?
stephen jackson?

These are the players you're comparing him to? We're only talking about stats correct? you're not going to pull one of those lines like "Oh he's good but he doesn't have the winning spirit like these other guys etc etc."

Jim Jackson: 15.2 PPG 4.9 RPG 3.4 APG Career wise.
12.9 PPG 6.1 RPG 2.8 APG '03-'04. 80 Games.
stephen jackson: 12.1 PPG 3.5 RPG 2.2 APG
tim thomas: 11.9 PPG 4.1 RPG 1.4 APG
James Posey: 10.2 PPG 5.0 RPG 2.0 APG
Al Harrington: 10.6 PPG 5.4 RPG 1.5 APG
Josh Howard: 9.8 PPG 6.1 RPG 1.5 APG
Corey magette: 14.0 PPG 4.6 RPG 1.9 APG
Q Richardson: 12.3 PPG 4.7 RPG 1.4 APG

So yes i would say JJ is better than S. Jackson, Thomas, Posey, Harrington, Howard, Magette, and Richardson. I wont include Prince or AK on the list because i think their defense with block shots makes up for their low scoring.

And this doesn't include the players from the bad teams like Milwaukee, Toronto, and Charlotte.

[Moinllieon]

All Carter and 'Melo' does is whine and moan. They do nothing positive for the game/NBA other than attract media attention on themsleves. Men of "words" so to say. Even though Melo got into a brawl at some nightclub that was totally 'unncessary' and 'unbasketball related'.

Sprewell, Zach, and but especially Artest does things positively to promote the game around the world. They make a big impact during games, and at practice. These guys are men of "action". Choking coaches, spitting on fans, punching them out are all great things to show players are actually passionate about the game and love the game....

Whining and moaning like VC and 'Melo' gives you the impression that they're nothing more than a bunch of 'spoilt brats'. Whilst Artest, Zach, and Spewell are genuine 'bad boys'.

I hate spoilt brats more than bad boys.

Hey, I hate spoilt brats more than bad boys as well. Hence why my criticisms of VC is much harsher than anything I'd say about Artest (or Rasheed). But you have to realize that Zach and Spree aren't "bad boys" either, they are much more spoilt than most of your list, some of whom on that list are true "bad boys". Maybe you should learn some background information about some of these players before you start going around labeling them one thing or another. For example, why aren't you including Chris Webber among your "spoilt brats" over Gary Payton (or Malone for that matter)? If your criterion is merely worse players whose play somehow cost Shaq a championship or showed him up (Payton, Kobe, both Wallaces, Parker, Jones, and Anderson, more than 2/3 of your list) but complained about role on team (if so then why Anderson and not Hardaway?), then I don't think you should justify your list by calling those guys "spoilt brats".

But before I go, a couple more points to address.

1) Chocking a coach, spitting on fans, and punching fans out are NOT evidences of "passion" that a player has about the game. They are stupid reactions of people who have anger management problems. It's interesting to note that the most passionate players never ever did anything close to such behavior: KG, MJ, Magic, Bird, Shaq, etc. I guess they must not "love" the game either.

2) Another note, you criticized Kobe for his reaction to Phil's criticism (as I did). However, you praise how Sprewell reacted to his coach's criticism? So had Kobe choked Phil instead, would that have been better for you?

3) Nobody in their right mind could call chocking a coach, spitting on fans, and punching fans out "positively promoting the game". If so then you might as well start calling the Invasion of Iraq "positively promoting democracy". If you really think so, I suggest you go around the internet posting disparaging rumours of outlandish behaviour about all the Senior Managers in the company you work for and see if your boss would see that as "positive promotion".

4) Carmelo grew up in the ghettos of Baltimore, along side gangs and drug dealers. Among his childhood friends are drug dealers. He has even appeared in DVDs where drug dealers made death threats to rivals. Zach Randolph grew up in Marion, IN. Remind me again who's the "spoiled boy" and who's the "bad boy" here?

Also, one last just sorta related note. Eddie Jones isn't that bad of a choker. In his career, he has been to the postseason 7 times, in 96, 98, 2000, and 01, he averaged over 17/5/4/3, right on par with his averages those seasons with the exception of 1996. In the 1996 regular season, he averaged 13/3/3 but went 17/5/2 in the postseason.

In fact, only in 1997 and last year, 2003, did the numbers suggest that Eddie Jones underperformed. Curiously, that 1997 playoffs was also the Lakers' first year with Shaq (your love affair with Shaq wouldn't have anything to do with your opinion of Eddie Jones would it, Long? ) I mean, 7 years ago and all these good playoff performances later and you still can't forgive Eddie Jones? He simply averaged less shots per game during the playoffs that year, from 13.5 per game in the regular season down to 8 per game in the playoffs (nevermind the Jazz were a clearly superior team that year).

Oh yeah, the argument that Eddie Jones shoots worse in the playoffs doesn't fly either. He's a career 44% shooter (38% from beyond the arc), he shoots 43% in the playoffs (39% in the playoffs).

Now that I think about it, that "Airball" you tag to Kobe's name is from the 97 playoffs too isn't it? Too bad Shaq is such a bad player in the final minutes of a game or else he might actually have been on the court when that happened. But oh yeah, he's a liability to his team b/c of his free throws. Darn. Maybe I should start giving Shaq the nickname "0:10"? Because God knows Shaq has NEVER cost the Magic a series with his horrendous shooting. (Is this a good time to point out that in 1994, Shaq's scoring dropped from 29 in the regular season to 20 in the post season? That's a "choke job" worse than anything that Eddie Jones pulled.)

[Moinllieon]

Corey magette: 14.0 PPG 4.6 RPG 1.9 APG
Q Richardson: 12.3 PPG 4.7 RPG 1.4 APG

So yes i would say JJ is better than S. Jackson, Thomas, Posey, Harrington, Howard, Magette, and Richardson. I wont include Prince or AK on the list because i think their defense with block shots makes up for their low scoring.

Career stats are deceiving, especially involving young players just coming into their own while Jim Jackson has already had his prime to pad his career averages. Even though JJ might be a career 15ppg player, he hasn't had over 14ppg for 4 years now. In reality, JJ should probably be thought of as a 13/5/4 player nowadays because his production seemed to have levelled off there the last couple of years (not counting the year he spent with the Kings when he went 7/4/2 or the 2 years before that when he was 11/5/3).

Magette is averaging 21/6/4 the last 2 years, Richardson is 15/6/2 this year (17ppg last year), S. Jackson is 15/5/3 this year before that fight (18ppg last year). Considering their age and where they are in their careers as compared to JJ (as well as just the athleticism of youth on defense that JJ no longer posseses), I'd say that those 3 are better than JJ. Can't make a point about the other players though, especially since I don't follow them as much (though similiar arguments could still be made about Al Harrington 17/7/3 and Josh Howard 13/8/2)