NBA Discussion

[ROI]

IMO, too many HS kids and underclassmen entering the draft. Its only going to contribute to the deteriorating play.

I wonder what %of players that get drafted are still in the league after five years. They get drafted but never get the chance to fully develop and the teams just give up on them after a while.

[Meh]

The high % of high school guys aren't really messing up the overall play of the league. It only means more rookies are going to ride the bench more than usual. Or when the new minor league of the NBA appears, play there.

MLB drafts consists about 50% HS players, and that's not a big deal. The only reason no one cares in the MLB is because they have a minor league system. NBA and the NFL keeps on yelling about how terrible it is with early entries because they don't want to pay for such a system. They want colleges to be the farm system at ZERO cost. Of course, the NCAA loves it because they make billions of dollars from it. The NBA/NFL loves it because they get players ready to contribute right away. It's the players who gets screwed for having to play 4 years for free in a college they never plan to take classes in.

On a different subject, since there are so many big names up for trade right now. What would be the list of the top untradables in the NBA right now? Meaning the top player on the list you'd not trade for anyone else one-for-one. #2 player you'd only care to trade straight up with the #1 player, and so on... Just for fun.

My list

1. Tim Duncan - Best player in the NBA, and in his prime.
2. Kevin Garnett - 2nd best player in the NBA, and in his prime
3. Kobe Bryant - Assuming acquital in the rape case of course. IMO, the 3rd best player in the NBA unless he plays against T. Prince . Probably as close to MJ as any 2-guard in NBA history.
4. Yao Ming - Probably only a top 10-15 player right now, but the combination of marketability and ridiculous upside is amazing
5. Lebron James - Similar argument to Yao. The only thing he lacks is the size, which drops him a notch in my mind. But much better potential for a longer career.
6. Shaq - Salary, age, and injury aside, the fact that he can make a team instant title contender is got to be tempting.
7. T-Mac - IMO, Kobe-lite. But then again, he might prove to be better if he can complement Yao. But it's not clear as he's never played with someone great.
8. Jason Kidd - Best PG by far, and is single-handedly making "stars" out of Richard Jefferson and Kenyon Martin. Two years ago I'd put him in the top 5.
9. Jermaine O'Neal - I think he's overrated when people think he's an MVP candidate this year. But the guy's still young and has a ton of talent.
10. Stephon Marbury - IMO, the only great "combo guard" in the NBA. Players like Baron Davis, Steve Francis, or forgot-his-name-playing-for-the-Bullets also get a lot of pub for their combo ability, but they just don't run the PG position well. Marbury is the only one who makes good decisions.

Just missed the list: Peja, Dirk, Nash, Cassell, Ray Allen, Melo, and I'm sure I'm missing some other guys.

[spooks]

Originally posted by Meh
My list

1. Tim Duncan - Best player in the NBA, and in his prime.
2. Kevin Garnett - 2nd best player in the NBA, and in his prime
3. Kobe Bryant - Assuming acquital in the rape case of course. IMO, the 3rd best player in the NBA unless he plays against T. Prince . Probably as close to MJ as any 2-guard in NBA history.
4. Yao Ming - Probably only a top 10-15 player right now, but the combination of marketability and ridiculous upside is amazing
5. Lebron James - Similar argument to Yao. The only thing he lacks is the size, which drops him a notch in my mind. But much better potential for a longer career.
6. Shaq - Salary, age, and injury aside, the fact that he can make a team instant title contender is got to be tempting.
7. T-Mac - IMO, Kobe-lite. But then again, he might prove to be better if he can complement Yao. But it's not clear as he's never played with someone great.
8. Jason Kidd - Best PG by far, and is single-handedly making "stars" out of Richard Jefferson and Kenyon Martin. Two years ago I'd put him in the top 5.
9. Jermaine O'Neal - I think he's overrated when people think he's an MVP candidate this year. But the guy's still young and has a ton of talent.
10. Stephon Marbury - IMO, the only great "combo guard" in the NBA. Players like Baron Davis, Steve Francis, or forgot-his-name-playing-for-the-Bullets also get a lot of pub for their combo ability, but they just don't run the PG position well. Marbury is the only one who makes good decisions.

Just missed the list: Peja, Dirk, Nash, Cassell, Ray Allen, Melo, and I'm sure I'm missing some other guys.

Having a hard time deciding between TD and KG. Can't go wrong with either, personally I find them interchangable. Pretty similar to yours.

1) TD- can already be considered as one of the best PFs of all time in his 7 year career. IMO he's already the best.

2) KG- most versatile player in the league right now.

3) LeBron James- NBA's new poster boy. Unlimited potential. Will be the best in his position wherever they decide to play him.

4) Yao Ming- marketability and potential.

5) Kobe Bryant- Pretty much agree with everything you wrote. Needs to show his NBA All-Defensive First Team form consistently before I put him on MJ's level. Notch below Pippen as well.

6) Shaq- still unstoppable on offense, I wish he would show a little more effort on defense. Same factors age, salary and injuries.

7) T-Mac- Kobe's equal athletically. Kobe's intangibles makes me rank him higher then T-Mac.

8) Amare Stoudemire- Getting 20/10 based on sheer athleticism alone. If he ever refines his game, watch out.

9) Dirk Nowitzki- IMO the hardest guy to guard in the league. Creates huge matchup problem. Range and accuracy but the height to go with it.

10) Jason Kidd- Best PG in the league.

Notables: Wade, Jermaine, Brand, Peja and Marbury.

Meh: I was wondering what was the size issue you brought up about Lebron? And the combo guard for the Wizards is Gilbert Arenas.

[Demitre]

Why didn't you just use FGP Long? The only difference is that your way includes FT shooting, which some players suck at(big men especially).

And I too think the NBA is being ruined by HS players and foriegn players. There is a lack of fundamentals now, and it's obvious in the dramtic decrease in scoring. The game is no longer exciting. People try to spin it to great defense, but I don't buy it.

[Long]

Originally posted by Demitre
Why didn't you just use FGP Long? The only difference is that your way includes FT shooting, which some players suck at(big men especially).

And I too think the NBA is being ruined by HS players and foriegn players. There is a lack of fundamentals now, and it's obvious in the dramtic decrease in scoring. The game is no longer exciting. People try to spin it to great defense, but I don't buy it.

FG% doesn't factor in 3 pointers either. OER factors FT, 2pt, 3pt. It's a player "actual" conversion rate on all of the points they could have scored from offensive plays.

For me the NBA is being ruined by "coaching" tactics, bad jump shooting, lack of fundamentals, and selfish play.

1. Coaching tactics - as guys like Larry Bird and Magic Johnson have commented over the years. Offensive tactics being employed by the coaches these days is to wind the shot clock down to 10 seconds before taking a shot. THAt means a lot of people are passing up open looks early in offense and are taking shots under pressure as a result. THere's a higher propensity to miss.

2. Bad jump shooting. People may say that OER is crap, and that an outside player is likely to do worst than C. True. But you can still compare SF to SF, just as you can compare the "fuel efficency" of a small car to small car. If guys like Mitch Richmond, Joe Dumars, Reggie Miller, Chris Mullin ect... have career averages of over 50.0+, then there's no excuse for guys like T-Mac and others not to. Indicates they're missing a lot of shots. Bird noted the decline years ago. "Defences" these days rely on clogging the lane, leaving guys wide open, and watching them miss the jumpers. Pistons played this type of defense versus the Lakers to great success.

3. Selfish play is another reason. Guys these days all play 1 on 1 basketball. Quick ball movement and passing is not part of the offense anymore. Marbury and Iverson are the main culprits of this.

[duguxiaojing]

Meh: I was wondering what was the size issue you brought up about Lebron?

I think hes refering to LB being smaller than ming. U know the traditional build around the big man thing.

[spooks]

You can blame Pat Riley for teams running down the clock. The less talented teams will always take their time on offence since they know they won't outgun you. It's just the way it's taught on all levels of competitive basketball.

Nobody cares about fundamentals anymore. Every team draft players with athleticism over players with a basketball IQ. The coaching staff should be able to teach you how to play but they cannot teach you how to be more athletic.

Talent and athleticism alone is not enough to be to be truly great. You have to have Basketball IQ as well. There are plenty of players today that do, but there are alot more who don't.

[Long]

1) TD- Agreed one of the best players in the league. Can play at both C/PF. Can dominate a game on the offensive and defensive end. One of the best low post players in the league.

2) Shaq O'Neal - Still the DPE. Has 3 to 5 years to run. A monster at both ends of the court. One of the greatest performers in the NBA finals. Any team with him will make the play-offs.

3) KG- A "skinny" stick with abilities. Probably the quickest PF and most althletic PF in the NBA at the moment. Relies more on his athletic ability than post abilities. Like Larry Johnson and Shawn Kemp, once he losses his athletic abilities, expect a huge decline in production.

4) Yao Ming- stands huge at 7'5. Still young and developing. With an OER of 56.0+, just needs more touches of the ball on offense to make huge impact. Given that the NBA is short of talent at the C position. I'm predicting Yao Ming to have a huge 2004/05 season. Expect him to average 20.0+ ppg and 10.0+ reb per game, along with over 2.0 blk pg.

5) KobeBryant - Currently the best offensive "SG' in the NBA. For me he needs to demonstrate that he can makes his teammates better and that he can also play defense. Remember MJ was a good "passing" SG as well. He wasn't all about just scoring. He had the basketball intelligence as well.

6) Tracy McGrady - If Kobe's the NBA's MJ. Then T-Mac is the Clyde Drexler. THis isn't a bad thing as Drexler made the NBA Finals on 3 occassions versus Jordan's six. THat aside, T-Mac to me has all round skills. Has the potential be as good or greater than Kobe. Needs to be able to play a team game.

They are the only guys I rate.

Lebron James - Averageing 20.0+ ppg in his rookie year wasn't bad. But that was for a losing team. I've seen guys with similair skills and abilities from the likes of Jerry Stackhouse to Mitch Richmond. So I am not yet convinced of his abilities. If he lifts his team to the play-offs this year, I'll be impressed. But if he continues with an OER of 45.0, and the team loses, than he is no different than any other guy woh doesn't make the team better, and can't win.

Marbury - Got a hiding in the play-offs by JAson Kidd. Marbury proves only 1 thing to me. He's a great "school yard player". Will be "exciting" to watch for years to come.

[spooks]

Way too much emphasis on your OER rating. Alot of factors you haven't considered.

Lebron James is the real deal. Putting up 21/6/5 is amazing from a player straight out of HS. Stackhouse and Mitch aren't in Lebron's league as all-around players. No doubt Cavs will be a playoff team next year, if McInnis didn't go down they would have made it this year. They were well above .500 with him, after he went down late in the season Cavs went a losing streak that left them out of the playoffs.

Last year they won 17 games, they won 35 this year. 1 game back of the last playoff slot. Not making his team better right?

[- L1n -]

nah if u ask me the most untouchable plkayer in the league is yao ming, all the teams wants him whereas the guards theres so many to pik from, i mean think about it yao ming already the secind best centre in the world after just 2 seasons that impressive plus the fact once shaq goes no one would be able to stop him, except in height by shawn bradley but bradley is a pansy.

[- L1n -]

Originally posted by spooks
Way too much emphasis on your OER rating. Alot of factors you haven't considered.

Lebron James is the real deal. Putting up 21/6/5 is amazing from a player straight out of HS. Stackhouse and Mitch aren't in Lebron's league as all-around players. No doubt Cavs will be a playoff team next year, if McInnis didn't go down they would have made it this year. They were well above .500 with him, after he went down late in the season Cavs went a losing streak that left them out of the playoffs.

Last year they won 17 games, they won 35 this year. 1 game back of the last playoff slot. Not making his team better right?

nope not in my books, i'll rate melo and wade over bron anyday.

[The Janitor]

Originally posted by - L1n -
nah if u ask me the most untouchable plkayer in the league is yao ming, all the teams wants him whereas the guards theres so many to pik from, i mean think about it yao ming already the secind best centre in the world after just 2 seasons that impressive plus the fact once shaq goes no one would be able to stop him, except in height by shawn bradley but bradley is a pansy.

Yao is not the most. He is among the tops, with Duncan, KG, and Kobe......

[Moinllieon]

Originally posted by spooks
Last year they won 17 games, they won 35 this year. 1 game back of the last playoff slot. Not making his team better right?

The Nuggets only won 17 games last year as well, this year with Melo they made the playoffs.

Not putting down Lebron or anything (Melo had better players around him), just want to emphasize how good Melo is as well.

[Demitre]

I know there aren't many very impressive centers, but I don't know if I am watching the same Yao Ming you all are watching? Among the top??!! He's a novelty, not an anchor for a team.

[spooks]

Originally posted by Moinllieon
The Nuggets only won 17 games last year as well, this year with Melo they made the playoffs.

Not putting down Lebron or anything (Melo had better players around him), just want to emphasize how good Melo is as well.

That was my point Moin How can people give Melo credit for the Nuggets turn around and not acknowledge that Bron did the same thing for the Cavs.

I know there aren't many very impressive centers, but I don't know if I am watching the same Yao Ming you all are watching? Among the top??!! He's a novelty, not an anchor for a team.

Gotta agree with you there Demitre. Yao is the 2nd best centre by default and there is a HUGE gap between 1st and 2nd.

Who does Yao have for competition at centre besides Shaq?

Eddy Curry?
Ilgauskas?
Dampier?
Brad Miller?
Maybe Big Ben if you consider him a C.

Without a doubt the weakest position the NBA right now.

[Carefree Assassin]

you could put the wallaces in that centres list as well

[princessducky]

I HATE THE LA FAKERS!!!!!

Go Sacramento Kings!!! Woohoo......C. Webb baby!!!

[Carefree Assassin]

Originally posted by princessducky
I HATE THE LA FAKERS!!!!!

Go Sacramento Kings!!! Woohoo......C. Webb baby!!!

now where did that come from???

[TrieuTuLong]

Originally posted by princessducky
I HATE THE LA FAKERS!!!!!

Me too, and I couldn't stand Kobe, either. There is no doubt about his talents, however, he is an immature, self-fish player who thinks the team should revolve around him. while the truth is Shaq is the best player in the game right now, and he just couldn't accept that fact. I hope he will fall flat on his face in the next coming season.

Go Jazz!!!

Originally posted by Long

5) KobeBryant - Currently the best offensive "SG' in the NBA. For me he needs to demonstrate that he can makes his teammates better and that he can also play defense. Remember MJ was a good "passing" SG as well. He wasn't all about just scoring. He had the basketball intelligence as well.

Kobe is the best SG in the NBA. I don't think so. He hasn't done enough to convince me that. I think he should be ranked as high as T-Mac right now. The reason he won so many championships is largely because he had Shaq with him. Did you forget that Shaq took the Magic to the NBA East Conference final along with Penny Hardaway in his rookie year? Without Shaq, he is nowhere near as good as he is right now. Let see how well he is going do next season when Shaq and Phil are both gone before I am totally convinced about Kobe.

Don't any one dare to compare him to MJ just yet. That is the most funny thing I've ever heard in my life. MJ has never lost in NBA finals, he has never had to promise a win against someteam in the NBA final, and he never got completely shut down by a player in the NBA final, either. Mj is the most explosive, dangerous player that I've ever seen in my life, and Kobe is nowhere near that level yet, besides , MJ has basketball intelligence which something that Kobe hasn't had yet during his career right now.

[Carefree Assassin]

just that part about being shut down during a match completely separates MJ and Kobe. Kobe got killed by Prince in the finals.