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Thread: Gwok Jing and the incident at Samarkand

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Gwok Jing and the incident at Samarkand

    In the thread regarding Yeung Gor's premature withdrawal from the martial world, the matter of Gwok Jing's involvement in the Mongol invasion of the Central Asian city of Samarkand during LOCH came up. In both history as well as the LOCH storyline, this was one of the Mongols' most brutal campaigns, ending in a mass slaughter of the city's residents (not the first nor the last time the Mongols would do such a thing, but one of the most memorable times).

    Does Gwok Jing's involvement in this incident color your perception of him? Gwok Jing was undoubtedly a noble man with a kind heart, and he did not order or condone the mass slaughter that Genghis and the Mongols engaged in at Samarkand (in fact, he pleaded in vain for the Khan to show mercy towards the Samarkandians), but there does seem to be a matter of at least unwitting complicity here (Gwok Jing, after all, was one of the Mongol Empire's chief military commanders at the time, and was an active leader in the war against the Jin Empire and their Mohammedian allies at Samarkand).

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    Junior Member CyberMonk's Avatar
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    Not really, as you said, Gwok Jing did plead for mercy, the decision inevitable was Genghis Khan's. Gwok jing could not really do anything about it.

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    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    Yes and No.

    As CyberMonk said the kindness and humanity in GJ was displayed in the episode however GJ does bear responsibility for the breakthrough of the Mongol war machine, for not having the foresight of predicting what is going to happen and preventing it. (Note that throughout the Mongol expansion, he would have ample opportunity to sense that Temujin is a power-hungry person clothed in false pretence; and also the advice that QCJ gave him).

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    Junior Member CyberMonk's Avatar
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    Gwok Jing grew up close the Genghis Khan and the Monoglian royal family. it is believable that Gwok Jing did not think or did not believe that Genghis khan was power hungry and looking to conquer everything. With Gwok Jing's intelligence it is also not hard to see that he did not have the foresight about the Mongol war machine.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Gwok Jing always believed in the good side of human nature. This characteristic did him much credit as a human being, but it also got him into plenty of trouble. It isn't exactly wise to assume the best about people in a world so full of treachery and danger. Until the end of LOCH, however, Gwok Jing never saw Genghis Khan as anything other than a hero. Clues to the contrary had been there all along, but Gwok Jing either could not or refused to see them.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    You can't really blame Guo Jing. Prior to that, Genghis Khan never ordered his army (at least in LOCH) to slaughter the citizens of the fortress he conquered. Of course he showed almost no mercy towards the soldiers and generals of those places, but Guo Jing probably thought that it was fair game (and indeed it was). He probably couldn't imagine that Genghis would be that pissed off to order the massacre.
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    Senior Member SolidSnake's Avatar
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    True what Candide said.
    Guo Jing always thought that Temujin is a great leader and wise person, never a cruel mass-murderer. People got killed in wars, GJ knew that much, but he never expected a massacre. Because of that, he pleaded and lost his only chance to be released from the marriage bond to the Khan's daughter, thus losing Huang Rong as well (for some time).
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    yes because guo jing is a "han gan"? (han traitor) (the word people use to describe ppl who hate the ming and like the qing)

    if he didnt use ngor fei's tactic book thing, the mongols would of lost!
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    Originally posted by LuNaR
    yes because guo jing is a "han gan"? (han traitor) (the word people use to describe ppl who hate the ming and like the qing)

    if he didnt use ngor fei's tactic book thing, the mongols would of lost!
    Guo Jing is a Han traitor? what do you mean?

    GJ helped Genghiz Khan to overthrow the Jurchen who conquered northern Song Empire and established the Jin Empire. GJ didn't know that Genghiz Khan planned to attack Southern Song.
    So how can you called GJ a traitor?????

    didn't you notice the scene how GJ's mother die?? She died because GJ and his mother didn't want to help Khan conquered south!

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    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    andrea

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    Senior Member Thor's Avatar
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    You cannot blame Gwok Jing for what happened.
    Gwok Jing is but a simpleton, best described as a retarded oaf with some martial art skills. The fact that he depends on his wife to think for him and to tell him what to do, tell us much about his lack of intellect. Can we expect him to realise that Genhiz Khan is so ambitious to kill the conquered.
    He is not a good father either as shown by his failure to properly teach his daughter Gwok Fu. As a man and head of the family, he has the responsibility to discipline the daughter and not let the conniving wife do what she wants.
    Gwok Jing is no hero as some of you make him to be in other threads. To defend the country, the objective is to win the war, to prevent the enemies to have a long term advantage. Dying with his family and countless able-bodied martial artists at Xiong Yang is stupid.
    A good leader or general will retreat and fight the war at another time and place. It is not shame to retreat, for he can lose the battle, but stay alive to continue fighting.

    Strategy of war:
    When your enemies is a strong and attack, we retreat.
    When the enemies rest, we harass.
    When the enemies retreat, we attack.

    These strategies have proved to be very successful. These were taught by one of the greatest leader of our time.
    Last edited by Thor; 08-29-04 at 03:16 AM.

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    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Thor
    Gwok Jing is no hero as some of you make him to be in other threads. To defend the country, the objective is to win the war, to prevent the enemies to have a long term advantage. Dying with his family and countless able-bodied martial artists at Xiong Yang is stupid.
    A good leader or general will retreat and fight the war at another time and place. It is not shame to retreat, for he can lose the battle, but stay alive to continue fighting.
    Excuse me, but a "hero" and a "good general" are two completely different things. This was the whole idea of LOCH.

    And due to historical continueity, Guo Jing had to die when Xiangyang fell.

    Guo Jing is a honourable man, a hero. While the Mongol hordes crushed the Western lands, reaching the Donau river and the city of Vienna, Xiangyang withstood the attacks from the North. Guo Jing did all that he can, gave up everything for the sake of his people without any thoughts of personal gain.
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    I agree with Laviathan

    that GJ is a hero and not a general.

    We know that he died at Xiang Yang, but we don't how did he died. Did he died helping the people to evacuate the city? Or he died on the battle field just fighting brainlessly? It depend on the situation to say what kind of a person he is.

    also GJ IMO could escape the city along with his wife, if they wanted. but that would mean abandoning the hundreds of soldiers that have very low martial art but are willing to die to protect their country. He is not like Napoleon who is indeed a great general that abandon his entire army. That guy have no honor to be consider a hero, which in the end he did become quite unpopular with his people.

    GJ's objective is not to win war. He is not even fighting for his country but for his people.

    also I wonder did GJ ever made an advance to attack the mongolian's army?

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    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    Unless Jin Yong decided to rewrite the history himself, Xiangyang would still fall.

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