Another look at The Declining Theory

[Temujin]

Most us here agree in The Declining Theory, which pretty much says that Martial Arts skills in general (inner power, techniques, lightness of kung fu, etc) decline or deteriorate from the older to the younger generation. So, if this deterioration theory holds true then… In general, heroes in DGSD should be much more powerful than heroes in LOCH/ROCH, heroes in LOCH/ROCH should be more powerful than heroes in HSDS, and so on.

There are some exceptions to rules however, as some Experts have pointed out in the past… ZWJ is always treated as equal (if not close) to GJ and YG. DFBB is just too controversial and out of this world since it took 4 Fighters to take her (or him) down with tricks too, Shi Po Tian is another hard-to-gauge fighter with superhuman ability, close to Sweeper Monk.

But let's particularly focus on comparing between LOCH/ROCH and HSDS here.

I found an excerpt from the first edition of HSDS, the only version I read a long time ago, translated by Kirara from the Indonesian translated version (the last couple paragraph of GX's story) :

Now Guo Xiang was certain that what the monk was reciting must be from a book about martial arts. "Great Monk does not know any kung fu, but he is a bookworm he memorized whatever he read," she thought. "Several years ago, at the peak of Mount Hua, he said that beside Leng-keh-keng (Leng Qie Jing or Leng Ga Sutra), Reverend DaMo also wrote a book called Jiu Yang Zheng Jing. He said that the book was to help people make their body stronger and healthier. But after practising according the the theory of the book, without knowing it, both teacher and his student had acquired such a powerful Internal Strength that is umatcahble in the realm of kung fu. That day, when he was attacked by Xiao XiangZhi, with just a single movement he had injured his attacker. Even Father or Big Brother Yang might not own such a high level of skill. The way Zhang JunBao defeated He ZuDao is more puzzling. Isn't it because they have learned Jiu Yang Zheng Jing? Aren't the words he is reciting now is Jiu Yang Zheng Jing?"

And then…

The Goan (Yuan in Mandarin Pinyin) Dynasty was a Mongolian dynasty ruling in China. During the period, people did not pay much attention to the literary arts because the patriotic people were eager to study martial arts to drive the Mongolians away. Therefore, in that era, there were a lot of amazing kung fu experts appearing in the realm of kung fu. Their number was bigger, and their skill was higher than the experts in the late Sung Dynasty, namely the era of Guo Jing, Huang Rong, Yang Guo, Xiao LongNu and others. The experts coming from the West were mostly from Kun Lun Clan, whereas the experts from China were mostly from Shaolin, Wudang and E'Mei Clans. Other than the 4 Big Clans, there were still hundreds, even thousands of smaller clans. Here ended the introduction to the story of the Dragon Slaying Sabre or The Heavenly Sword and the Dragon Sabre.


Even Guo Xiang who knew what her father (GJ) and her big brother (YG) were awesome fighters with great martial arts skills and inner power, had DOUBT about them when she compared them to Jue Yuan and Zhang Jun Bao (Zhang San Feng).
Also it seemed like the first edition clearly stated 'in that era (HSDS), there were a lot of amazing kung fu experts appearing in the realm of Kung Fu. Their number was bigger, and their skills was higher than the experts in the late Sung Dynasty, namely the era of Guo Jing, Huang Rong, Yang Guo, Xiao Long Nu and other.'



OK.. So what does this mean ? Does the declining theory still hold true ?

Did Jin Yong made changes in the second edition of HSDS (how about his future third edition) ?

Is this a writing flaw in the original HSDS and fixed in the second edition ?

How do you interpret these excerpts ?

[TaiHan]

actually in the 1st edition HSDS, JY did stated specifically said that 9 Yin cannot compare with 9 Yang in internal power. It said that 9 Yang is much stronger in that region. While in terms of technique 9 Yang can't compare with 9 Yin.

Even Father or Big Brother Yang might not own such a high level of skill. The way Zhang JunBao defeated He ZuDao is more puzzling. Isn't it because they have learned Jiu Yang Zheng Jing? Aren't the words he is reciting now is Jiu Yang Zheng Jing?"

actually this part was actually stated in 2nd edition also.

also I think acouple of expert in here do think that the average or mid-range fighter in HSDS is stronger than the one in LOCH/ROCH even in the 2nd edition.

[Temujin]

I double-checked Athena's translation of HSDS second edition, the statement from the second excerpt above is no longer there.

Maybe Jin Yong realized that there are too many fans of GJ, YG and the Greats, he shouldn't say HSDS fighters are better than the Song era fighters.

[andrea7974]

Originally posted by Temujin
Most us here agree in The Declining Theory, which pretty much says that Martial Arts skills in general (inner power, techniques, lightness of kung fu, etc) decline or deteriorate from the older to the younger generation. So, if this deterioration theory holds true then? In general, heroes in DGSD should be much more powerful than heroes in LOCH/ROCH, heroes in LOCH/ROCH should be more powerful than heroes in HSDS, and so on.

I do believe in this theory.
Basically there's almost no new martial art skills were developed or created.

There were only a few fighters who develop their skills.
Let's make a list of heroes who developed their own skills:
1. Z3F with his Taichi
2. YG with his Sad Palms
3. OYF and H7G who developed only a few strokes before they died at Mount Hoa.

hmm..that's all I can recall.

All I know is that the heroes and fighters only found the ancient martial art books, or met senior fighters and learned from them, or they just got their skills from their teachers.

[KJ]

I do believe in this theory.
Basically there's almost no new martial art skills were developed or created.

There were only a few fighters who develop their skills.
Let's make a list of heroes who developed their own skills:
1. Z3F with his Taichi
2. YG with his Sad Palms
3. OYF and H7G who developed only a few strokes before they died at Mount Hoa.

hmm..that's all I can recall.

All I know is that the heroes and fighters only found the ancient martial art books, or met senior fighters and learned from them, or they just got their skills from their teachers.

Creating a new skill doesn't automatically make you better. Are you saying you believe in the declining theory because people of the later periods don't develop as many new skills, therefore making them weaker?

[Exodus]

Ofcourse it does only people that were exceptional martial artist were able to create any new skills.

[Yon]

Originally posted by Exodus
Ofcourse it does only people that were exceptional martial artist were able to create any new skills.

Please elighten us.

This Declining Theory might be true if you really leave the JY's intention of novels, but the examples are ridiculously presented.

I am sure Ce Fang's father must be the brightest man if the declining theory has proven right. BLAH!

[KJ]

Ofcourse it does only people that were exceptional martial artist were able to create any new skills.

Kiu Fung didn't create any new skills. Many of the DGSD characters did not create any new skills. Guo Jing didn't create any new skills although he did incorporate 9 yin with his Dragon Palms. He still didn't really create any new skills. CMK did not create any new skills, he learnt all his, yet he was able to be one of the top 2 fighters of his era and on par with the Greats of LOCH/ROCH. Just because fighters of a certain era did not create any new skills does not mean they cannot use existing skills to become good. People who create new skills are rare and they probably would have to be exceptional, but are not required to become great fighters.

[Dirt]

Some people create new skills but only create sub-par skills.

[Exodus]

Its true that people that didnt create any new skills could become great fighters, like XF. But the ones who created the skills like 6msj must have been really really good. So i do believe in the declining theory

[TaiHan]

Originally posted by Exodus
Ofcourse it does only people that were exceptional martial artist were able to create any new skills.

I don't think those that can create new martial arts are consider exceptional martial art. In SOD, there were plenty of people who develop his or her own martial arts. but IMO, they were all junks.

Exceptional martial artist are those who see the weakness in their martial arts and aren't constricted by their martial arts's theory or law. These martial artists will try to cover up their weakness by 1)creating new stances or form that perfectly cover it up 2)is performing the stances in a different way (a variation) it doesn't have to be perform exacting as it was taught 3) is refining the skill such as XZ and XF refine the XL28Z into XL18Z(it have become be deadier than the original).

even more exceptional martial arts are those can do the above 3 while in a battle. This show that they can truely adapt to the situation immediate. If they can do it perfectly, it could almost be said that they will never lose a battle.

[Yon]

This is what happen when you only get bits and pieces of information by reading the debate and try to come up with smarty arse attitude.

Read the book correctly.

[bliss]

An overlooked fact of ZWJ's argument is that he was such a formidable fighter to in large part to the immense inner strength he received by learning in its entirety the 9 Yang manual. If we take JY's word for it, 9 Yang was written by DaMo himself, and DaMo existed some 700-800 years earlier. Therefore, ZWJ's incredible martial arts are still consistent with the Declining Martial Arts theory since his inner strength was based on a manual written WELL before the DGSD period. And since the 9 yang sutra was assumed to be in its original form and unmodified for the most part throughout the last couple hundred years, its safe to say ZWJ is a semantic exception to the rule. ^_^

[PJ]

Originally posted by Exodus
Its true that people that didnt create any new skills could become great fighters, like XF. But the ones who created the skills like 6msj must have been really really good. So i do believe in the declining theory

First of all, I don't think we know when 6MSJ and Xiao Yao Pai's advanced techniques were created. Perhaps hundreds of years before DGSD. But even then, it is accepted that DGSD is the HEIGHT of JY universe, meaning it was WEAKER before it, and WEAKER after it. Although there is not much information about pre-DGSD times in JY universe, we do have a short story Yue Nu Jian, and people at that time were not up to par with DGSD's level.

Also, martial arts creation are mostly theories. It would be possible for a practioner to exceed the level of the creator in reality, although I would say it's rare.

[Laviathan]

Originally posted by bliss
An overlooked fact of ZWJ's argument is that he was such a formidable fighter to in large part to the immense inner strength he received by learning in its entirety the 9 Yang manual. If we take JY's word for it, 9 Yang was written by DaMo himself, and DaMo existed some 700-800 years earlier. Therefore, ZWJ's incredible martial arts are still consistent with the Declining Martial Arts theory since his inner strength was based on a manual written WELL before the DGSD period. And since the 9 yang sutra was assumed to be in its original form and unmodified for the most part throughout the last couple hundred years, its safe to say ZWJ is a semantic exception to the rule. ^_^

Nine Yang was not written by Damo. (In the 1st edition it was, but not anymore now) An unknown monk/martial arts master wrote it and attributed to Damo.

Originally posted by PJ
First of all, I don't think we know when 6MSJ and Xiao Yao Pai's advanced techniques were created. Perhaps hundreds of years before DGSD. But even then, it is accepted that DGSD is the HEIGHT of JY universe, meaning it was WEAKER before it, and WEAKER after it. Although there is not much information about pre-DGSD times in JY universe, we do have a short story Yue Nu Jian, and people at that time were not up to par with DGSD's level.

Well, the Six Meridian Energy Sword of Dali was created by one of the Duan family ancestors and this person might have been able to wield all six swords with his own internal power. It was considered by the monks of Celestial Dragon Temple that the level of martial arts of their own generation was much lower than in previous eras.

[PJ]

Well, the Six Meridian Energy Sword of Dali was created by one of the Duan family ancestors and this person might have been able to wield all six swords with his own internal power. It was considered by the monks of Celestial Dragon Temple that the level of martial arts of their own generation was much lower than in previous eras.

I remember a discussion where some folks pointed out that Yue Maiden was pretty much unrivaled in her time. Well, I don't remember how long she came before DGSD, but if she were the best at the time, doesn't that conclude her generation is weaker than that of DGSD?

Keeping this in mind, now considering that 18 Dragon Subduing Palms, 6MSJ, Murong Family's martial arts, Xiao Yao Pai martial arts, and perhaps Ode to Gallantry arts were probably all invented in pre-DGSD era, shouldn't pre-DGSD be stronger than DGSD as a whole? But Yue Maiden era is weaker than DGSD. Does that create some contradictions?

[andrea7974]

Originally posted by KJ
Creating a new skill doesn't automatically make you better. Are you saying you believe in the declining theory because people of the later periods don't develop as many new skills, therefore making them weaker?

I'm not saying so. I was just trying to say, that in ancient time, usually the teachers didn't pass all of their skills to their pupils. It was because there were so many pupils who later on betrayed their martial schools, or teachers.

Just imagine if a teacher has 10 skills, then later on he only pass 80% of his skills to his pupil. this pupil later on has another pupil and he pass 80% of his skills to his pupil... and so on.

Later on, the younger geneneration probably only got 10% of the original skills. That's why it is essential for the younger generation to create another new martial art skills to supplement their skills.

[- L1n -]

Originally posted by KJ
Kiu Fung didn't create any new skills. Many of the DGSD characters did not create any new skills. Guo Jing didn't create any new skills although he did incorporate 9 yin with his Dragon Palms. He still didn't really create any new skills. CMK did not create any new skills, he learnt all his, yet he was able to be one of the top 2 fighters of his era and on par with the Greats of LOCH/ROCH. Just because fighters of a certain era did not create any new skills does not mean they cannot use existing skills to become good. People who create new skills are rare and they probably would have to be exceptional, but are not required to become great fighters.

zwj is not on par with greats in an overall factor, maybe interms of inner energy he is but when considering fighting ability, techniques and etc etc he is 1 level below.

[PJ]

Originally posted by andrea7974
I'm not saying so. I was just trying to say, that in ancient time, usually the teachers didn't pass all of their skills to their pupils. It was because there were so many pupils who later on betrayed their martial schools, or teachers.

Just imagine if a teacher has 10 skills, then later on he only pass 80% of his skills to his pupil. this pupil later on has another pupil and he pass 80% of his skills to his pupil... and so on.

Later on, the younger geneneration probably only got 10% of the original skills. That's why it is essential for the younger generation to create another new martial art skills to supplement their skills.

But nothing is stopping the younger generation from learning MORE skills, thus matching the creator or becoming better.

Example: Zhang Sanfeng created Taichi. Wonderful stuff. But then again, ZWJ has reached his level, even though ZWJ only learned Taichi and did not create it, because he happened to learn several other martial arts as well.

[TaiHan]

Originally posted by PJ
Also, martial arts creation are mostly theories. It would be possible for a practioner to exceed the level of the creator in reality, although I would say it's rare.

ZWJ actually did surpasses the creator of QKDNY. the creator although created 7 levels, but he own mastered up to level 6. There are also some people think that HS(creator of 9Yin) might not have been capable of defeating GJ. There are also those who have doubts in DGQB's skill. but the majorities are only opinions.