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Thread: Deun and Mo Yung Imperial Bloodlines (originally posted by Laviathan)

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    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    Default Deun and Mo Yung Imperial Bloodlines (originally posted by Laviathan)

    The post below was originally posted by Laviathan, I merely re-post it here just in case the newcomers and those who miss it the last time are interested.

    Imperial Bloodline of Dali (Duan Family)

    Wrote down the bloodline of the Dali Kings for those who might be interested. Much historical info, quite dull though.

    1. Duan Siping (893-944)
    Chieftain of the Bai tribe in Yunnan, formed a federation of 37 tribes and revolted against the corrupt government. Duan Siping then established the Kingdom of Dali in the year 937, with Dali City as its capitol. Siping was a loyal follower of the Buddhist faith and erected many Buddhist temples during his 8-year reign. After his death Siping was known as the Great Ancestor Holy Martial Civil Emperor.

    2. Duan Siying
    Son of Siping. Succeeded his father in 944, but in the same year his throne was usurped by his uncle Duan Siliang. Siying was then forced to become a Buddhist monk (Other sources claim that Siying died shortly after becoming king and was succeeded by his uncle). Siying was known as Emperor Wenjing.

    3. Duan Siliang (? - 951)
    Brother of Siping, uncle of Siying. Usurped his nephew's throne and forced Siying to become a monk. Siliang was titled Holy Compassionate Emperor.

    4. Duan Sicong (? - 968)
    Son of Siliang. Titled Emperor Guangci.

    5. Duan Sushun (? - 985)
    Son of Sicong. Emperor Yingdao.

    6. Duan Suying (? - 1009)
    Son of Sushun. Succeeded his father in 986. Was bestowed the title Loyal King by Emperor Taizong of the Northern Song dynasty. Suying was known as Emperor Shaoming.

    7. Duan Sulian (? - 1022)
    Son of Suying. Attacked Vietnam in the year 1014 but was defeated. He gained the title of Emperor Jingming. After his death he was succeeded by his nephew, Duan Sulong.

    8. Duan Sulong (? - 1041)
    Grandson of Suying, nephew of Sulian. Because Sulian's son had already died and his grandson Suzhen was too young, Sulong succeeded the throne in 1022. In 1026, Sulong abdicated the throne in favour of his nephew, heir-apparent Duan Suzhen, and became a monk. He died in 1041 and was titled Emperor Jianyi.

    9. Duan Suzhen (? - 1039)
    Grandson of Sulian, nephew of Sulong. Succeeded his uncle in the year 1026 and died in 1039 (some sources say that he became a monk in 1041). Emperor Shengde.

    10. Duan Suxing (? - 1044?)
    Grandson of Suzhen. Succeeded his grandfather because his father had already deceased. Suxing built many palaces and enjoyed luxury, wealth and women. The Dali citizens were unhappy with their king and dethroned Suxing, giving the throne to Prince Duan Silian. Suxing was known as Emperor Tianming.

    11. Duan Silian
    Great-great grandson of Duan Siping (Great Ancestor). Became King in 1044, due to an uprising of the Dali citizens in which Duan Suxing was dethroned. During his reign, Silian relied heavily on his advisor, Marquis Gao Shengtai. Since then, the power of the Imperial Duan family slowly moved into the hands of the Gao clan. Silian abdicated in 1075 in favour of his son Duan Lianyi in order to become a Buddhist monk. Silian was known as Emperor Xiaode.

    12. Duan Lianyi (? - 1080)
    Son of Silian. Succeeded his father as King of Dali in 1075, but was killed by minister Yang Yizhen in 1080. Duan Lianyi was known as Emperor Shangde.

    NOTE: Duan Lianyi is the father of Duan Yanqing (Leader of the Four Villains) of DGSD.

    13. Duan Shouhui
    Nephew of Lianyi. When his uncle was murdered by Yang Yizhen who tried to usurp the throne, the Gao Family attacked Yang and killed him. The head of the Gao Family, Gao Zhisheng, then supported Duan Shouhui to become king in 1080. Shouhui was only a puppet-king, for all the real power lies in the hands of Gao Zhisheng. In the same year, he abdicated in favour of his cousin Duan Zhengming. Shouhui himself, who was titled Emperor Shangming, became a monk at the Celestial Dragon Temple.

    14. Duan Zhengming
    Grandson of Duan Silian. Like his cousin Duan Shouhui, Duan Zhengming was a puppet-king who had to listen to Gao Zhisheng. In 1094, he was forced by Gao to become a Buddhist monk. Gao Zhisheng then became king himself. This was the end of the First Dali Duan Dynasty. Zhengming was known as Emperor Baoding.

    NOTE: Yes, he is the same Emperor Baoding of DGSD.

    15. Duan Zhengchun
    Younger brother of Zhengming. After a 2-year reign, Gao Zhisheng told his sons at his deathbed that they should return the throne to the Duan family. So in 1096 after Gao Zhisheng's death, Duan Zhengchun was crowned King of Dali, this was the beginning of the Latter Dali Duan Dynasty. in 1108, Zhengchun became a monk and was succeeded by his son Duan Heyu. Zhengchun was known as Emperor Wenan.

    NOTE: Father of Duan Yu, old playboy in DGSD.

    16. Duan Zhengyan
    Son of Zhengchun. After succeeding his father in 1108, Duan Heyu changed his name into Duan Zhengyan. Duan Zhengyan banned one member of the Gao family who commited a crime, and this man died shortly after. Two servants of this man wanted to avenge their master's death. They planned to assasinate the King on his way to the temple. The plan failed and the two assasins were caught, but Zhengyan respected the two for their loyalty and instead of punishing them, he bestowed them titles and granted them rewards. The two loyal servants refused the King's offer and insisted in dying to serve their master in the afterlife. Zhengyan executed the two assasins and built a tomb to honor these two gentlemen.
    In 1116, Zhengyan was granted the title King of Dali by emperor Huizong of the Northern Song.
    Zhengyan's sons contended with each other for become heir which sorrowed Zhengyan very much. In order to end his sons' rivalry, Zhengyan abdicated and became a monk in 1147. Duan Zhengyan was known in history as Emperor Xuanren and with his 39-year long reign, he was the longest ruling King of the Dali Empire.

    NOTE: Yep, Duan Zhengyan is the historical DUAN YU.

    17. Duan Zhengxing
    Son of Duan Zhengyan, succeeded his father in 1147. Became a monk in 1172 and abdicated. He was known as Emperor Zhengkang.

    18. Duan Zhixing (? - 1200)
    Son of Zhengxing. His 28-year long reign was marked by various rebellions and political turmoil. Zhixing died in 1200 and was titled Emperor Gongji.

    NOTE: Reverend Yideng of Condor Trilogy.

    19. Duan Zhilian (? - 1204)
    Son of Zhixing. Ruled for only 4 years and died. He was titled Emperor Xiangtian and was succeeded by his younger brother Zhixiang.

    20. Duan Zhixiang (? - 1238?)
    Son of Zhixing, younger brother of Zhilian. During his reign, the Kingdom prospered. He was titled Emperor Shenzong after his death in 1238 (some sources claim he became a monk and abdicated).

    21. Duan Xiangxing (? - 1251)
    Son of Xiangxing. In 1244 the Mongol troops attacked Dali without success. Xiangxing died in 1251 and was titled Emperor Kaoyi.

    22. Duan Xingzhi (? - 1260)
    Son of Xiangxing, succeeded his father in 1251. In 1253 Khubilai attacked Dali with an army consisting of 100.000. Xingzhi's ministers then killed the Mongolian emissary and hung the body on a tree. Soon, Dali City fell under the attacks of the Mongolian hordes and Xingzhi fled to the south. The next year, he was captured by Mongolian troops. In 1255, Xingzhi and his uncle Duan Fu were brought before M霵gke Khan. Xingzhi then presented the map of Dali to the Mongolian Khan and told his plans of governing and pacifying the area. Xingzhi was then bestowed the title of Prince by M霵gke and received the supervision over the Yunnan region. Xingzhi and his uncle then returned to Yunnan with Mongolian troops and crushed those tribes that resisted Mongolian rule. Duan Xingzhi then became the first Yuan Governor of Yunnan Province. In 1260, Xingzhi went to Dadu (Beijing) to pay hommage to Emperor Khubilai, but died on his way to the capitol. Duan Xingzhi was the last monarch of the Dali Kingdom, but his descendants remained governors of Yunnan during the Yuan dynasty.

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    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    Imperial Bloodline of the Murong Family

    The Murong Family of DGSD are descendants of the Imperial family of the ancient Yan Empire. The Murong clan originated in Liaodong (north-eastern China) and was the most powerful tribe of the White Xianbei. The ancestor of the White Xianbei was said to "admire (MU) the virtue of the Two Extremities, receive the grace (RONG) of sun, moon and stars", therefore his descendants took Murong as their family name. The Murong Family established several dynasties, they were: Former Yan (337-370), Latter Yan (384-407), Western Yan (384-394) and Southern Yan (398-410).

    Former Yan (337-370)

    Murong Huang (297-348)

    Chieftain of the White Xianbei Tribe in the Liaodong Peninsula. Murong Huang's father was bestowed the title Duke of Liaodong by the Emperor of the Western Jin Dynasty. After his father's death in 333, a war broke out between Murong Huang and his brothers, each claiming to be the rightfull heir. In the end, Murong Huang prevailed and succeeded his father as the Duke of Liaodong. He the went on to attack other Xianbei tribes and take over their lands. Murong Huang's power in North-Eastern China grew, and in 337 he felt confident enough to proclaim himself the Prince of Yan. His title was later acknowledged by the Jin government. Murong Huang adopted the governmental system of the Central Plains, mimicking the Chinese dynasties of Wei and Jin. Thus laying the foundations for the future Yan Empire.
    When his son Murong Jun proclaimed himself Emperor, Murong Huang was posthumously titled Great Ancestor Emperor Wenming.

    1. Murong Jun (319-360)

    Second son of Murong Huang. Was named heir-apparent in 335. Succeeded his father in 348 as Prince of Yan. Between 350 and 352, Murong Jun lead his army to invade the central plains, which resulted in his occupying of Jicheng (present-day Beijing) in 352. He then proclaimed himself Emperor of the Yan Dynasty (Former Yan) and made Jicheng his capitol. In 357 Murong Jun defeated the Huns and moved his capitol to Yecheng. These were the glorious days of the Former Yan Empire, which consisted of the present-day provinces Hebei, Henan, Shandong, Shanxi, Anhui and Liaoning.
    Murong Jun was titled Emperor Jingzhao.

    2. Murong Wei (350-384)

    Third son of Murong Jun. Was first titled Prince of Zhongshan, but after his elder brother's death, Murong Wei was named heir-apparent and succeeded his deceased father in 360. When he became emperor, Murong Wei was just a 10-year-old child and relied heavily on the help of his uncles. The Former Yan began to decline during his reign and in 370 Emperor Fu Jian of the Qin Empire attacked the capitol, taking Murong Wei and the entire Murong Family as prisoners of war. This was the end of the Former Yan Dynasty. The Murong Clan was then taken to the Qin Capitol of Chang'an and was treated with the utmost courtesy by Fu Jian. Murong Wei then lived a few years in relative peace, but in 384 he and other members of the Murong family planned to assassinate Fu Jian and rebel against the Qin. The plan failed and Murong Wei was executed.
    Murong Wei was known as the Dark Emperor.

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    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    Western Yan (384-394)

    1. Murong Hong (?-384)

    Son of Murong Jun, brother of Murong Wei. When the Former Yan empire was destroyed by Fu Jian, both Murong Wei and Murong Hong were taken prisoner and brought to Chang'an. In 383 Fu Jian was defeated at the battle of Feishui and the Murong clan saw chance to restore the Yan dynasty. After hearing that his brother Murong Wei was executed by Fu Jian, Murong Hong and his followers attacked Chang'an. He then proclaimed himself emperor of the western Yan dynasty. But Murong Hong treated his subjects very harsh and cruel, which eventually led to his death. In 384, only one year after his coronation, Murong Hong was killed by his advisors in the Chang'an Palace.
    Murong Hong was known as the Prince of Jibei.

    2. Murong Chong (?-386)

    Son of Murong Jun, younger brother of Murong Wei and Murong Hong. When his brother Murong Hong rebelled against the Qin, Murong Chong gathered an army of 8000 mounted troops to join his brother. When Murong Hong was assassinated in 384, Murong Chong was chosen as the new leader of the Xianbei people. After his coronation, he attacked Chang'an relentlessly and took over the city. But once in Chang'an, Murong Chong decided to settle down and enjoy his wealth and luxury. His followers were all of Xianbei origin and wanted to return to their old homeland in the North-East, but Murong Chong did not want to give in to their demands. Finally in 386, the enraged troops stormed into the palace and Murong Chong was chopped into pieces.
    Murong Chong ruled for 3 years and was called the Mighty Emperor.

    3. Murong Yi (?-386)
    Murong Yi was a minor prince of the Murong family. After Murong Chong's death, Murong Yi was chosen as leader but he did not held true power. After a few weeks, he too was assassinated.
    Murong Yi was known simply as King of Western Yan.

    4. Murong Yao (?-386)
    Son of Murong Chong. Murong Yao did not held true power as an emperor and because his father Murong Chong was a tyrant, Murong Yao did not enjoy much popularity. Soon, all his followers left him and went to the side of Murong Yong. Murong Yao was then killed in an uprising.
    Murong Yao was emperor for only a month. He too was known as King of Western Yan.

    5. Murong Zhong (?-386)

    Son of Murong Hong, founding emperor of the Western Yan. After Murong Yao's death, the Xianbei ministers and generals all urged Murong Yong to succeed the throne. But Murong Yong refused, saying that his relation with the royal bloodline was too distant to be emperor. Instead, Murong Yong supported Murong Zhong to become the new ruler. But Murong Zhong was only a puppet-emperor, all powers lie in the hands of Murong Yong. After two months, Murong Yong decided that his political position was fully secured. He then had Murong Zhong killed and took over the throne himself.
    Murong Zhong was known as King of Western Yan.

    6. Murong Yong (?-394)
    Murong Yong was a distant member of the Murong imperial family. Through many schemes, he managed to become Chancellor of the Western Yan and got hold of all political powers. He then had emperor Murong Zhong killed and took over the throne himself in 386. His 9-year reign brought relative peace and order in the Western Yan Kingdom.
    But this all came to an end in 394. Murong Jun's brother, Murong Chui had crowned himself emperor and established the Latter Yan dynasty in the North-East. In Murong Chui's eyes, there can only be one Murong Emperor. The Latter Yan army attacked the Western Yan, Murong Yong could not withstand the military might of Murong Chui and the capitol was surrounded. Murong Yong tried to flee but was captured and killed by the enemy troops. Murong Chui then took over the Western Yan territory.
    Murong Yong was the last monarch of the Western Yan dynasty. He was titled Prince of Hedong.

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    Latter Yan (384-407)

    1. Murong Chui (326-396)

    Fifth son of Murong Huang. Of all of Murong Huang's sons, Murong Chui was the most talented. He was a remarkable warrior, tactician and statesman. As a general, he scored many victories and saved the Former Yan many times from enemy attacks. Murong Chui slowly became the national hero of the Yan Kingdom, which lead to jealousy from Murong Jun and his son Murong Wei. Murong Chui sensed this danger and together with his sons fled to the Qin Empire. Qin emperor Fu Jian personally welcomed him to his realm and made him his advisor. In 370 he helped Fu Jian to destroy the Former Yan, but deep in his heart he nurtured the ambition to restore the Yan Empire. His chance came in 384 when Fu Jian was defeated by the Eastern Jin army at the Battle of Feishui. Still, Murong Chui escorted Fu Jian back to Chang'an although his sons urged him to kill Fu Jian and usurp the throne. Murong Chui then bid farewell to Fu Jian and along with his sons he travelled to the North-East, united all Yan loyalists and established the Latter Yan Empire. Through many campaigns, Murong Chui managed to restore the Yan empire's territory and made Zhongshan his capitol. In 395, Murong Chui sent his son Murong Bao to attack the newly founded Northern Wei Kingdom. Murong Bao's army was defeated at Canhe Pass and totally annihilated. Murong Bao was the only one to escape. The next year, Murong Chui lead the army to take revenge on the Northern Wei. But when the army reached Canhe Pass, they saw the skeletons of the dead Yan soldiers. Filled with sadness and grief, Murong Chui fell ill and died.
    Murong Chui is known in history as the Divine Martial Emperor.

    2. Murong Bao (355-398)

    Son of Murong Chui. His 2-year reign was marked by political turmoil. Murong Bao faced the threat of usurpment by his younger brother Murong Lin and the danger of the Northern Wei troops advancing towards his capitol. Unable to cope with such disasters, Murong Bao fled the capitol and retreated to the North-East. En route, he survived an assassination attempt by his son Murong Hui, who tried to take over the throne. In 398, Murong Bao and his followers finally got into the old Xianbei territory, only to be killed by his minister.
    With Murong Bao's death, the Latter Yan Empire broke up into two parts: the Northern part, which will continue to be named Latter Yan, and the Southern part which is known in history as the Southern Yan dynasty.
    Murong Bao was named Emperor Huimin after his death.

    Murong Xiang (?-397)

    Great-grandson of Murong Huang. Murong Xiang was originally an unimportant member of the Murong family, but when Murong Bao fled the capitol, he was chosen as new emperor. Unfortunately, Murong Xiang was an incompetent coward who hid himself in the palace, enjoying his wine and women. The citizens of the capitol revolted and killed the drunk Murong Xiang in his sleep. Murong Xiang ruled for only two months and was considered a "false" emperor. Therefore, he was not granted an imperial name after his death, he is only known for his original title "Duke of Kaifeng".

    Murong Lin (?-398)

    Youngest son of Murong Chui, brother of Murong Bao. Murong Lin was a treacherous, malicious backstabber who betrayed his own family more than once just for personal gain. As early as in 369, when his father Murong Chui fled the Yan Kingdom with his family, Murong Lin secretly left the party, returned to the Yan court and told Emperor Murong Wei about his father's escape plan. Later on, he also betrayed his oldest brother Murong Ling, which eventually led to the latter's death. But he was also a great schemer and provided his father many cunning tactics in later years. When Murong Chui restored the Yan dynasty and crowned himself emperor, he bestowed unto Murong Lin the title of Prince of Zhao.
    In 397, Murong Lin planned to kill his brother Murong Bao and usurp the throne. The plan failed and Murong Lin and his followers fled into the mountains. When he heard that Murong Bao has left the capitol and Murong Xiang had crowned himself, Murong Lin attacked. The citizens of Zhongshan hated the foolish tyrant Murong Xiang and opened the gates to welcome Murong Lin. After having Murong Xiang killed by the mob, Murong Lin proclaimed himself emperor. But the armies of the Northern Wei have begun their attacks and Murong Lin was unable to defend the city. He and his soldiers then fled to the south to join his uncle Murong De. Murong Lin then urged Murong De to establish his own Southern Yan regime in Shandong. But soon, Murong Lin rebelled against his uncle. Murong De defeated Murong Lin and forced him to commit suicide.
    Murong Lin was only emperor for a period of three months. He is known in history as the Prince of Zhao.

    3. Murong Sheng (373-401)

    Eldest son of Murong Bao. Succeeded his father's throne in 398 after crushing the revolt. But Murong Sheng was a paranoid, distrusting those who helped him become emperor. Many of his followers were falsely accused of treason and executed. His ministers soon lost all faith in the new emperor and Murong Sheng was killed in an uprising.
    Murong Sheng was titled Emperor Zhaowu.

    4. Murong Xi (?-407)

    Son of Murong Chui, uncle of Murong Sheng. At his deathbed, Murong Sheng told his uncle to support his son, heir-apparent Murong Ding. But Murong Ding was still an infant, and Murong Xi convinced the Empress-Dowager (with whom he had a secret affair) to help him succeed the throne instead of Murong Ding. Thus, in 401 Murong Xi became the emperor of the Latter Yan.
    Murong Xi was a shameless tyrant. After having killed the former heir-apparent Murong Ding, he betrayed the Empress-Dowager, the woman who helped him on the throne, and had her executed as well. During his 6-year reign, Murong Xi did many outrageous things, which included in having more than 5000 soldiers freeze to death just to please his favourite concubine.
    In 407 one of his generals, the Korean warrior Gao Yun, revolted and captured Murong Xi. After having proclaimed publicly all the crimes of this tyrant, Gao Yun had Murong Xi executed.
    Murong Xi was the last emperor of the Latter Yan Dynasty. He was titled Emperor Zhaowen.

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    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    Southern Yan (398-410)

    1. Murong De (336-405)

    Youngest son of Murong Huang, brother of both Murong Jun and Murong Chui. Murong De and Murong Chui have always been very close since childhood and often discussed important things with each other. When Murong Chui restored the Yan Dynasty in the year 384, Murong De became his right-hand. When Murong Bao succeeded his father as Emperor of the Latter Yan, he made his uncle Murong De governor of the southern regions of his realm. In 397 the Northern Wei army attacked the capitol and occupied the central part of the Yan Empire. Murong De and his followers fled to Henan. Having lost contact with his cousin Murong Bao (he had fled to the north), Murong De decided to do what his brother Murong Chui had done years before: Murong De crowned himself Prince of Yan. He then conquered Shandong province and made it his centre of power. In 400 Murong De officially proclaimed himself Emperor. His regime was called the Southern Yan dynasty. Murong De was an able monarch and during his reign the empire prospered.
    Murong De died of illness in 405, he was posthumously titled Emperor Xianwu.

    2. Murong Chao (385-410)

    Nephew of Murong De. Murong De's sons have all died, therefore the old emperor made his closest relative, prince Murong Chao, the heir-apparent in 405. He then succeeded his uncle the same year.
    Murong Chao was a incompetent ruler and brought the Southern Yan empire into total chaos. In 410 the Eastern Jin army under command of general Liu Yu successfully attacked the Southern Yan. Murong Chao along with the entire imperial family were taken prisoner. Murong Chao was executed in Nanjing.
    Murong was the last ruler of the Southern Yan as well as the last monarch of the Murong dynasty.


    In chapter 43 of DGSD, Murong Fu showed the Murong family tree to Xiao Feng. The lineage was traced from Great Ancestor Emperor Wenming Murong Huang to Emperor Zhaowen Murong Xi. Also, Murong Chao, last emperor of the Southern Yan, was mentioned. From this I conclude that Murong Bo and his son Murong Fu are descendants from either the Latter Yan or Southern Yan bloodline.

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    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    To Laviathan:

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    wow, you kept the thread. I was looking for it along time ago.

    many thanks .

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    Senior Member JigSta's Avatar
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    I think the title of the thread should be renamed if possible. Maybe even make it a sticky? It's pretty informative.
    All that's needed to say have been said, why say anything more? The man is drunk, why stay any longer?....
    Quote Originally Posted by Question
    if CarMAN Lee hair is green, then am sure carMAN #$%@ a dog to give birth to you.

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    This is a disgrace to TVB's research and development team. They named Duan Zhixing's father as Duan Wenzhong in their Nan Di Bei Kai spin-off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew
    This is a disgrace to TVB's research and development team. They named Duan Zhixing's father as Duan Wenzhong in their Nan Di Bei Kai spin-off.
    You mean TVB knew the meaning of "research"?

    Thanks to Laviathan for the detailed information and to rabadi for reposting.
    玉木宏

    blog

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    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
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    Default Thanks Rabadi!

    I lost the info on the Duan Family on my computer. Thank you for preserving it!
    對 敵 須 狠 , 斬 草 除 根 , 男 女 老 幼 , 不 留 一 人

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    Senior Member eeyore's Avatar
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    Default another one :p

    Jin Yong's Ming Cult:
    a historical verification
    By: Laviathan

    The Ming Cult is a long-forgotten religion which had ceased to exist for centuries. In the past, it only drew the attention of a small number of scholars like archaeologists and historians. In the 1970's, wuxia novelist Louis Cha (Jin Yong) used this sect as a topic in his novel "Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber". Since then, the once obscure Ming Cult has become the center of attention of millions of readers. Jin Yong definitely did research on the historical Ming Cult for his novel, studying books on the subject including the history of certain secret religious movements which had connections with the Ming Cult. The Ming Cult followers and their activities in the novel, therefore, do match with historical facts. But fiction remains fiction, a wuxia novel is not a history book? Jin Yong's Ming Cult is therefore somewhat different from the historical Ming Cult.

    The origins of the Ming Cult

    What kind of religion was the Ming Cult? In chapter 25 of the novel, Zhang Wuji read a book written by Yang Xiao called "Record of the spread of the Ming Cult in China", in which it is mentioned:
    "The Ming Cult originated in Persia and its' original name was Mani Cult. It was introduced in China during the reign of Female Emperor Wu Zetian in the first year of Yanzai of the Tang dynasty. The Persian? presented the Bible of Dualism to the court. Since then, the Chinese began to study this scripture? Ming Cult temples were erected in Chang'an and Luoyang named "Great Cloud Temple of Light"? But in the third year of Huichang, the imperial government ordered the execution of Ming followers, the power of the cult was severely weakened. Since then, the Ming Cult became a banned religion? for survival, the Ming Cult was forced to operate in secret. Eventually the name of Monijiao (Mani Cult) was bastardized into Mojiao (Demon Sect)..."

    The founder of the Mani Cult was the prophet Mani (216- 276), who was born in the province Babylon which was under Persian rule. At the age of 12 and 24, Mani had visions where an angel told him that he would be the prophet of a last divine revelation. A the age of 26 Mani started on a long journey, where he stood forward as 'Messenger of Truth', and he traveled through the Persian Empire and reached as far as India, where he became influenced by Buddhism. Mani practiced under the protection of the Persian emperor, Shapur I, most of his life. As his teaching quickly gained ground, he came in opposition to the Zoroastrian priests, and with the emperor Bahram I from 274, Mani lost his protection, and he either died in prison or was executed. The death of Mani, is retold as an incident similar to the crucifixion of Jesus.

    The teachings of Mani is called Manichaeism, it is a combination of Christianity, Gnosticism, Zoroastrianism and several other religious doctrines. Central in the Manichaean teaching was dualism, that the world itself, and all creatures, was part of a battle between the good, represented by the God of Light, and the bad, the darkness, represented by a power driven by envy and lust. These two powers were independent from each other, but in the world they were mixed. Most human beings were built from material from the bad power, but in everyone there was a divine light, which needed to be released from the dark material of the body. When the world and all creatures were created, the attacking darkness was mixed with some of the divine light. While the battle between light and darkness had been fought in cosmos until creation, creation made the world of man the new battleground. Everything that gives light in this world belongs to the divine realms, while everything that absorbs light, belongs to the darkness. The meaning of life is therefore the same as the meaning of the world, namely to participate on the divine side of this battle. Every man carries inside him a seed of light, and the only way to help free this seed from darkness is through the insight in the process of cosmic battle and insight in how to fight envy and lust.

    Manichaeism spread out over most of the known world of the 1st millennium AD, from Spain to China. But the religion disappeared from the West in 10th century, and from China in the 14th century, and today it is extinct.

    Manichaeism in China

    It is generally accepted that Manichaeism was officially introduced in China during the reign of Wu Zetian in the year 694 AD (as mentioned in the novel). But some scholars claim that Manichaeism was already known in China prior to the reign of Empress Wu. For about 80 years starting in 762, Manichaeism was the state religion of the Turkic people Uighurs, the powerful ally of the Tang Empire. With the backing of the Uighur Khans, Manichaeism became extremely influential in China and was considered the leader of the Three Foreign Religious Sects (Manichaeism, Nestorianism and Zoroastrianism). But with the decline of the Uighur Empire, the Ming Cult slowly lost power. In the third year of Huichang (843 AD) Tang emperor Wuzong officially banned the Mani Cult and its' followers were prosecuted. The cult members who escaped the oppression went into hiding and lost contact with the Mani Cult headquarters in the Western Regions.

    In later generations Mani followers in China adapted the teachings of Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism, slowly forming a distinct form of Manichaeism with Chinese characteristics. It was during this period that the Mani Cult was named Ming Cult by its' Chinese followers. Temples were erected in the style of Buddhist monasteries in order to avoid trouble. The temple on Huabiaoshan in Quanzhou City, Jinjiang Prefecture in Fujian Province is the only remaining Mani Temple in the world.

    The Ming Cult was infamous for its' rebellious nature, during the Latter Liang dynasty (907-923) the Ming Cult started the Yi Mu Rebellion. During the Northern Song dynasty the Ming Cult was involved in many rebellious activities, especially in the South-Eastern provinces of Jiangsu, Zhejiang and Fujian. The Ming Cult had a short revival during the Yuan dynasty when many people joined their ranks to fight the Mongolian government, but after the founding of the Ming dynasty in 1368, the cult slowly disappeared and eventually ceased to exist.

    The Chinese Ming Cult and the Persian Ming Sect

    In the novel, the Persian Ming Sect sent their Guardian Lords and Messengers to China to catch Golden Flower Granny, and even tried to control of the Chinese Ming Cult with the Scepters of Holy Fire. The Chinese Ming Cult leader Zhang Wuji had to engage in battle with the Persians (chapter 29). But what is the true historical connection between the Persian Sect and the Chinese Cult?

    According to historical research, after Mani's death in 276, many of his followers fled to the east and established a branch of Manichaeism in Central-Asia. In the 6th century, the faction in Central-Asia officially broke with the Persian headquarters in Babylon. The Mani religion was brought to China via the Silk Road by the members of this faction, not by its' Persian counterpart. The headquarters of the Chinese Ming Cult was situated in Samarqand. So actually, the Chinese Ming followers didn't have connection with the Persian sect whatsoever. Furthermore, the story of Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber took place around 1360, during that time Manichaeism has become extinct in both Persia and Central-Asia where the Muslim faith had become the major religion. The Ming Cult in China was then the only Manichaeist movement of significance in the world.

    So things like the Persian Ming Sect coming to China, their search for the Holy Virgin, Xiaochao going to Persia to become the leader of the Ming Sect etc. (chapter 30) couldn't have happened.

    The Ming Cult and the Ming Dynasty

    At the end of the novel, Zhu Yuanzhang managed to trick Zhang Wuji and seize power. When he became emperor, he named his dynasty Ming to honor the Ming Cult. But historically, Zhu Yuanzhang was a general under the command of Liu Futong. Liu Futong was a member of the White Lotus Sect, a semi-religious organization which was heavily influenced by the Ming doctrine. Liu Futong claimed that the son of White Lotus leader Han Shantong, Han Lin'er was the descendant of the Imperial House of the Song dynasty. He then proclaimed Han Lin'er as "Xiaomingwang" or Little King of Light (the King of Light is the same as the God of Light in Manichaeism), emperor of the new Song dynasty. After the death of Liu Futong, power slowly moved into the hands of Zhu Yuanzhang and Han Lin'er became just a puppet emperor. Zhu Yuanzhang then had Han Lin'er assassinated and became emperor. Zhu then named his dynasty the Ming dynasty to "honor" Xiaomingwang and to prove that he is the legitimate successor of Han Lin'er's throne. There's no historical evidence that Zhu Yuanzhang was a follower of the Ming Cult, nor is it certain that the dynastic name is really derived from the Ming Cult.

    Furthermore, it is also mentioned in the novel that rebel leader Fang La of the Northern Song dynasty once was the leader of the Ming Cult. In the past, many scholars thought Fang La was indeed Manichaeist - just because he was vegetarian. In recent years, research has proved that Fang La had no connection with the Ming Cult at all.

    The Ming Cult's traditions and customs

    Regarding the traditions and customs of the Ming sect, Jin Yong did managed to describe it very correctly. Archaeological discoveries in North-West China have proved that many things in the novel were accurate, like Ming Cult members burying their corpses naked etc. Jin Yong was respected and praised by many experienced archaeologists for it.

    Some minor inconsistencies in the novel were:

    1. About the prohibition of consuming meat and alcohol

    In the novel, Zhang Wuji abolished the rules prohibiting cult members to eat meat and drink wine, due to the fact that food was scarce in war-torn China (chapter 25). Another reason given was that the headquarters of the Ming Cult was situated on Kunlunshan in Western China, an area where vegetables were scarce, to live a vegetarian life-style would therefore be difficult (chapter 23). This is of course incorrect. In the past, oases in the Western Regions produced large numbers of fruit, which is the ideal food for Ming Cult members (who saw fruit as the seed of Light). Furthermore, though food was scarce during the political turmoil at the end of the Yuan dynasty, Ming Cult members never abolished the rules concerning eating meat. The rules were strict and the level of discipline was high, only renegade Ming members would break the rules and eat meat.

    2. Clothing

    In the novel, Ming Cult members wore white robes with the symbol of the Holy Fire embroidered on it. Historically, priests of the Ming Cult indeed wore white robes and white hats. Laymen Ming members were not obliged to do this but they too like to wear white clothing. But the symbol of fire is solely an invention of Jin Yong.

    3. The worship of fire

    In Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber, Ming Cult members worshipped fire. In reality, although Manichaeism respects the Light, its' followers did not had any fire rituals. Fire-worshipping is an aspect of Zoroastrianism. The historical Ming Cult never had this sort of practice, so there was no reason to wear the symbol of fire on their clothing. For some reason, Jin Yong borrowed the Zoroastrian aspect of fire-worshipping and used it in his story to make the Manichaeist Ming Cult more interesting.

    Some people notice the worshipping of fire in the novel and therefore conclude that the Ming Cult is Zoroastrian. I have written this article to try to correct this common-made mistake.

    SOURCES:
    "Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber", Louis Cha
    "Jin Yong bixiade Ming Jiao yu lishi de zhenshi", Lin Wu-Hsu
    "Wo xin de Jin Yong lishi", Wang Yue
    "Mani", Encyclopedia of the Orient
    "Manichaeism", Encyclopedia of the Orient
    Spring Summer Autumn Winter.
    Pair ducks nest fly together.
    Clemencies. Summer life, feather winter white.
    Green meadow in spring, before the autumn bite.
    Watching the red gown.
    And none else, alone.

  13. #13
    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JigSta
    I think the title of the thread should be renamed if possible. Maybe even make it a sticky? It's pretty informative.
    I could not think of a better title yesterday. Sorry for that

    Quote Originally Posted by Laviathan
    I lost the info on the Duan Family on my computer. Thank you for preserving it!
    The pleasure is mine

    BTW, I also found this:

    LAVIATHAN'S ULTIMATE RANKING IN JIN YONG UNIVERSE

    Hi, for the past ten years I have done nothing except analysing Jin Yong novels with my good friend Mencius. Because a lot of people here on the forums like rankings, we have been so bold to compile a so-called Ultimate Ranking.

    The most powerful fighters from the Northern Song dynasty (DGSD) till the end of the Ming dynasty (Sword stained with Royal Blood) are included and divided into 12 ranks. None of the characters living in the Qing dynasty are strong enough to be placed, so they are all excluded. Please note that we take characters' power at its' PRIME as a standard, looking at ALL-ROUND MARTIAL ARTS. Duan Yu is therefore not ranked, because his powers only work occasionally and he cannot engage in close-quarter combat. Some people may argue that Linghu Chong is placed too low but, although he excels in swordsmanship, he is relatively weak in unarmed combat. Those personages whose names are mentioned but never really appeared in the novel are placed between brackets, along with those in which very little information were given in the novel and are questionable.

    I understand that his is quite controversial and I look forward in receiving your comments.


    Ultimate Ranking in Jin Yong Universe

    1. The Nameless Old Sweeper Monk

    2. Wuyazi, Child Mistress of Heavenly Mountain Tianshan Tonglao, Li Qiushui

    3. Xuzhu, Shi Potian
    (Demonic Swordsman Dugu Qiubai)

    4. Guo Jing, Yang Guo, Zhang Sanfeng, Zhang Wuji
    (Central Divinity Wang Chongyang, Huang Shang*A )

    5. Golden Wheel Monk, Zhou Botong, Xiao Yuanshan, Murong Bo, Xiao Feng

    6. Great Wheel Monk Jiumozhi, Eastern Heretic Huang Yaoshi, Southern Emperor Yideng, Western Venom Ouyang Feng, Northern Beggar Hong Qigong, Lord Long and Lord Mu of Gallant Island

    7. Qiu Qianren/Ci'en, Xiaolongn, Dongfang Bubai
    (You Tanzhi)

    8. Elder Kurong, Abbot Xuanci*B , Duan Yanqing, Duan Zhengming, Abbot Benyin*C and his fellow monks, Ding Chunqiu, Su Xinghe, Murong Fu, the Three Divine Monks of Shaolin Duwei, Dujie and Dunan, Reverend Kongjian, Zhang San and Li Si of Gallant Island
    (Yang Dingtian)

    9. He Zhudao, Yuanzhen/Cheng Kun, Xuanming Elders Lu Zhangke and He Biweng, Eight-Armed Swordsman Fang Dongbai, A Er, A San, Yang Xiao, Fan Yao, Abbot Kongwen*C , Kongzhi, the Two Demons of Hejian Bu Tai and Hao Mi

    10. Miejue, Kongxing, the Four Guardian Lords of the Ming Cult*D , the Seven Heroes of Wudang*E , Xiaoxiangzi, Nimoxing, Yin Kexi, Huang Rong, Feng Qingyang, Abbot Fangzheng*F , Ren Woxing, Taoist Priest Chongxu*G
    (Linghu Chong, the Yellow-Dressed Lady*H )

    11. The Seven Disciples of Quanzhen*I , Huang Yaoshi's disciples*J , Reverend Yideng's four disciples*K, Gongsun Zhi, Li Mochou, Daerba, Yel Qi, Huodu, Green Furred Lion King Shi Shugang, Shi Huolong, Yue Buqun, Zuo Lengchan, Abbot Miaodi*L , Taoist Priest Yucha*M , Bai Zizai, Xie Yanke, Xiang Wentian

    12. Nun Dingxian, Mister Mo Da, Priest Tianmen, Feng Buping, Mu Renqing, Yuan Chengzhi, Jiunan*N, Yzhenzi, Priest Musang, Gui Xinshu, Huang Zhen
    (Golden Snake Swordsman Xia Xueyi)

    *Notes:
    A. Creator of the Book of Nine Negations (LOCH)
    B. Abbot of Shaolin Temple during Northern Song (DGSD)
    C. Abbot of Shaolin Temple during Yuan Dynasty (HSDS)
    D. Purple Dragon Lord Dai Yisi (Golden Flower Granny), White Eagle Lord Yin Tianzheng, Golden Lion Lord Xie Xun, Green Bat Lord Wei Yixiao
    E. The second hero Yu Lianzhou is the strongest among them, followed by Song Yuanqiao, Zhang Songxi, Zhang Cuishan (Zhang Wuji's father, most talented of the Seven Heroes), Yin Liting (excels in swordsmanship) and Mo Xinggu. Third hero Yu Daiyan has been crippled and does not belong to this ranking.
    F. Abbot of Shaolin Temple during Ming Dynasty (Smiling Proud Wanderer)
    G. Leader of Wudang in Smiling Proud Wanderer
    H. Miss Yang, (great-) granddaughter of Yang Guo and Xiaolongn
    I. Third disciple Qiu Chuji is the best fighter, followed by Ma Y, Liu Chuxuan, Wang Chuyi, Hao Datong with Sun Bu'er being the weakest of them all. Tan Chuduan died in LOCH as does not belong to this ranking.
    J. The Black Wind Demons Chen Yuanfeng and Mei Chaofeng are the most powerful, followed by Qu Lingfeng (Qu San), Lu Chengfeng, Wu Tianfeng (never appeared in novel) and Feng Mofeng (his martial arts skills equals those of Li Mochou, but he lacks her fighting experience).
    K. Zhu Ziliu is the most accomplished martial artist of the four, followed by Wu Santong and Diancang Yuyin. The Lumberjack only appeared in LOCH, so his martial arts progress is unknown.
    L. Abbot of Shaolin Temple in Ode to Gallantry
    M. Leader of Wudang in Ode to Gallantry
    N. Princess Changping, daughter of Ming Emperor Chongzhen

  14. #14
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    madness .... MADNESS I TELL YOU!

    =)

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss
    madness .... MADNESS I TELL YOU!

    =)
    what you mean by madness?

  16. #16
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Abbot Benyin*C

    *Notes:
    C. Abbot of Shaolin Temple during Yuan Dynasty (HSDS)
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  17. #17
    Senior Member - L1n -'s Avatar
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    i don't believe zwj is on par with yg and gj and definitely not above the greats, i would put zwj with huang yao shi and them but definitely not better, and also dy shopuld be about number 3 aswell, although i can see lev's argument that it dosen't work always but when it dioes it's a killer.


    so this is what my Level 3 would be: Xu Zhu, Shi Potian, Duan Yu and Xiao Feng

  18. #18
    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
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    Default Dugu Qiubai's martial arts philosophy

    Dugu Qiubai wrote about himself (this is what Yang Guo read at the Dugu's grave):

    "Having roamed the martial arts world for more than thirty years, I have killed all my villainous foes and defeated all heroic champions, Under Heaven there's no one who can be my equal. Without any other choice, I could only retreat and live in seclusion in this deep valley, with a condor as my companion. Alas, throughout my life I searched for a good adversary but in vain, I am truly lonely and saddened. DEMONIC SWORDSMAN DUGU QIUBAI"

    In his Sword Tomb, it is stated:
    "The Demonic Swordsman Dugu Qiubai has become the invincible and unchallenged warrior under Heaven, he therefore buried his swords here. Alas, the heroes of the realm bowed down before me, now my long sword is of no use anymore... the agony!"

    "Fierce and aggressive, able to penetrate every obstacle. With it, I competed with the heroes of the Northern Plains during my teenage years."

    "The Violet Flexible Sword, used it prior to the age of thirty. I accidentally wounded a righteous man with it, it turned out to be a Weapon of Doom. I felt great remorse and abandoned the sword in a deep valley."

    "The Heavy, Blunt Sword, complexity is useless. Before I reached the age of forty, I used it to roam the entire Empire under Heaven."

    "After the age of forty, I no longer relied on weaponry. Trees, bamboo and rock can all be my swords. From then on, the essence of my cultivation slowly reached the level of overcoming the sword without a sword."


    To explain this, I will use certain abstract principles, excerpts from the novels and some of my own views:

    Dugu Nine Swords favors formlessness so that it can assume all forms and, since it has no style, Dugu Nine Swords uses all ways and is bound by none and, likewise, uses any techniques or means which serves its end. In this art, efficiency is anything that scores.

    Expression is not developed through the practice of form, yet form is a part of expression. The greater (expression) is not found in the lesser (expression) but the lesser is found within the greater. Having "no form", then, does not mean having no "form". Having "no form" evolves from having form. "No form" is the higher, individual expression.

    In Dugu Nine Swords, all technique is to be forgotten and the unconscious is to be left alone to handle the situation. The technique will assert its wonders automatically or spontaneously. To float in totality, to have no technique, is to have all technique.


    Example: Smiling Proud Wanderer, chapter 10 -
    Feng Qingyang said: "… Master Dugu was a man of superior intellect. To learn this sword method, emphasis must be placed on UNDERSTANDING, not on memory or imitation. When you understand the intention of these Nine Swords, you can apply them in every situation. Even if you forget them totally, it will not be a problem. When facing an opponent, the more you forget, the less you will be obstructed by the original sword style."


    Dugu Nine Swords, as it was taught to Linghu Chong by Feng Qingyang, was just a way to grasp the deeper aspects of sword fighting. The original Nine Techniques are therefore only the BEGINNING and the TOOL, not the end or final goal. In other words, it is the "form" from which one can develop "no form". After mastering these Nine Techniques, they must be forgotten and abolished. The application of the principles then differs with each individual, Linghu Chong's style differs from Feng Qingyang's, Feng Qingyang's style differs from Dugu Qiubai… This is the way of individual expression.

    The knowledge and skill you have achieved are meant to be "forgotten" so you can float comfortably in emptiness, without obstruction. Learning is important but do not become its slave. Above all, do not harbor anything external and superfluous - the mind is primary. Any technique, however worthy or desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed by it.

    Example: Return of the Condor Heroes, chapter 16-
    … He (Yang Guo) had many extraordinary encounters throughout his young life and it's in his character to like "more", to like "something different". He has indeed learned many different martial arts styles including Quanzhen Style, Ouyang Feng's style, Ancient Tomb Style, Art of Nine Yin, Hong Qigong's style, Huang Yaoshi's style… He learned a bit of this and pieces of that, but in none of the styles did he reached top-level… Suddenly a thought came up: "Why can't I take the best points of all schools and create my own style?"… he couldn't help but to perform punches and kicks. At first it was still clear which technique belonged to Hong Qigong and which one was learned form Ouyang Feng, but at the end it all became chaotic… In these seven days, he passed out five times… But after pondering for days, he saw the light and understood how every martial art can be used, if it can't be combined, why forcing it? When engaged in battle, use whatever is useful. Do not think about the origins of the style, this way it is not much different from a style created by yourself.


    Yang Guo at that time wasn't able to create a style of his own but he was beginning to understand the basic principles of Dugu Nine Swords. Yang Guo had already learned a lot of martial arts styles, had knowledge of the more advanced fighting theories and witnessed some extraordinary masters in actual combat. His martial arts knowledge was more profound than Linghu Chong's. Linghu Chong therefore needed to learn Dugu Nine Swords to learn the "form" and the theories, while Yang Guo already had enough "form" and was starting to understand the theories. That's why Yang Guo could skip the stage of Dugu Nine Swords and learn the Heavy Ironsword- the way of expression of Dugu Qiubai in his 30's. The Heavy Ironsword is a more advanced level of Dugu Qiubai's training process, although Yang Guo did not learn the Dugu Nine Swords, the principles of Dugu Nine Swords are already absorbed into the way of the Heavy Ironsword. The fact that Yang Guo could wield the Heavy Sword effectively shows that he grasped the essence of the style of middle-aged Dugu. This fighting style was more "formless" than the Dugu Nine Swords, but even the Heavy Ironsword has to be abolished eventually.

    When insubstantiality and substantiality are not set and defined, when there is no track to change what it is, one has mastered the formless form. When there is clinging to the form, when there is attachment of the mind, it is not the true path. When technique comes out of itself, that is the way.

    Example: Heaven Sword and Dragon Sabre, chapter 24-
    What Zhang Sanfeng taught him (Zhang Wuji) was "the intention of the sword", not "the technique of the sword". He must forget all the techniques in order to grasp the essence, in combat the intention guides the sword with limitless variations. But if one or two techniques are not completely wiped out of the memory, than the mind will be obstructed and the sword skills will not be blunt. Experts like Yang Xiao and Yin Tianzheng more or less understand this meaning… This Taiji Sword… can be said to consist of only one technique but this technique alone can be used infinitely… Although the sword is made out of wood, but wielded with the power generated by the Art of Nine Yang it differs not from a steel blade.


    The way Zhang Sanfeng and Zhang Wuji performed Taiji Sword gives a clue on how Dugu Qiubai would have fought in his 40's. The movements have been so simplified and sophisticated that just one technique can be used infinitely. Internal power has reached such a level that a wooden sword can be wielded as if it was a steel blade. The Heavy Ironsword, as a tool, has become unnecessary. Zhang Wuji had never trained in swordsmanship, but because of his previous martial arts training, he already understood the principles of Taiji Sword- principles which Dugu Nine Swords shared. Zhang Wuji therefore didn't have to learn a "form" like Dugu Nine Swords to advance to this level, because of his knowledge and internal power, he needed less TOOLS to achieve a higher GOAL.

    The martial art of Dugu Qiubai therefore is the art not founded on techniques or doctrine. It is just as you are.

    Dugu Qiubai knew more than anyone else that martial arts were a form of individual expression, a view shared by Zhang Sanfeng, Zhang Wuji, Yang Guo, and to a lesser extent, Feng Qingyang and Linghu Chong. Techniques and forms are just tools in order to achieve goals, once a goal is achieved, the tool must be abolished, the techniques forgotten in order to make way for further development. Everything that was learned in the past is forgotten, but is still with you- it has become one with your entire being, it has become second nature. The Heavy Ironsword and the wooden sword of Dugu Qiubai can therefore be seen as higher levels of performing Dugu Nine Swords, yet they are not Dugu Nine Swords. Dugu Nine Swords is everywhere and nowhere, for it has been completely absorbed within the way of the Heavy Ironsword, the wooden sword and the way of "overcoming the sword without a sword"… the form is nowhere to be found, but the principles remain the same.

    If people say Dugu Nine Swords is "this" or "that", then let the name of Dugu Nine Swords be wiped out, for that is what it is, just a name.
    對 敵 須 狠 , 斬 草 除 根 , 男 女 老 幼 , 不 留 一 人

  19. #19
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    Very Cool. I enjoy reading anything and everything about Dugu.
    wow..04-08....4 years just like that..time flies..

  20. #20
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    Thats what I have agreed with all along. DG9J is not before or after DGKB's flexible sword,wooden sword or iron sword or even no sword. Its basically foundation work for DGKB's sword theory.

    In that respect, its probably the most scalable kung fu in JY works. Although one could argue that once scaled up, its no longer DG9J.

    Its all semantics anyway. If DGKB lived 10 years more and decided that Dragon Palms or Punching People in the Head was more effective for fighting and more suited to him, its also part of his DG9J foundation in a certain respect.

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