how guo jing and huang rong died

[putrihuanzhu]

can someone tell me how guo jing and huang rong died,
i know that they have a son can someone tell me what happened to their son,

i just only watch and read the first part(legend of condor hero) so i don really know the second and third part of the trilogy

[Ken Cheng]

Jin Yong never provided the details on Gwok Jing and Wong Yung's deaths. All that is known is that they both died bravely fighting to their very last breath defending Seung Yeung City and its citizens during the Mongols' final siege (about thirteen years after the end of RETURN OF THE CONDOR HEROES). Their son, Gwok Por Lo, either died with them or died soon afterward.

[Tazzy1972]

think GuoFu and YehLeQi also died around the same time

[putrihuanzhu]

thank you for that info
so,all the family of guo died?
what a very sad ending
i hope their son will become a great hero but.......

[Ken Cheng]

thank you for that info
so,all the family of guo died?
what a very sad ending.

Not quite all. Gwok Seung, who was combing the world in search of Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl at the time that Seung Yeung fell, survived and went on to become the founder of the Ngor Mei Sect, which would play a pivotal role in HEAVEN SWORD & DRAGON SABRE.

[JigSta]

thank you for that info
so,all the family of guo died?
what a very sad ending
i hope their son will become a great hero but.......

Their daughter became a great hero

[Tazzy1972]

but we dun know how great as yet

[putrihuanzhu]

Not quite all. Gwok Seung, who was combing the world in search of Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl at the time that Seung Yeung fell, survived and went on to become the founder of the Ngor Mei Sect, which would play a pivotal role in HEAVEN SWORD & DRAGON SABRE.

oic
wat is english name for ngor mei sect?
at time whwn xiang yang fell,did she come to help her parents?
who guo fu married to?
and did guo xiang find her love?

sorry but i too curious about my hero guo family(like they all exist in this world)

[Thai guy]

oic
wat is english name for ngor mei sect?
at time whwn xiang yang fell,did she come to help her parents?
who guo fu married to?
and did guo xiang find her love?

sorry but i too curious about my hero guo family(like they all exist in this world)

Have you read tne novel or watched any ROCH adaptations? I don't know the English name of Ngor Mei or Er Mei Sect. As for your second question, we only knew that Guo Xiang was the sole survivor of the entire Guo's family but whether or not she did help protecting Xiang Yang does not know to us. She might be quite far from Xiang Yang at that time and did not come back to help on time. Guo Fu married with Yelu Qi, who later became the new leader of Beglar Clan and the previous student of ZBT. Guo Xiang became a nun so obviously she did not find her love. We might be able to say that Guo Xiang have tried, at least half of her life, to find her love "Yang Guo" but she failed.

[Ken Cheng]

oic
wat is english name for ngor mei sect?
at time whwn xiang yang fell,did she come to help her parents?
who guo fu married to?
and did guo xiang find her love?

sorry but i too curious about my hero guo family(like they all exist in this world)

The most common anglicization of "Ngor Mei Sect" (which is the Wade-Giles Cantonese romanization) would be "Emei". This sect (a real religious sect) appears in many wuxia novels (although only Jin Yong's version was founded by Gwok Seung). The sect was very important in HEAVEN SWORD & DRAGON SABRE, and also had roles in STATE OF DIVINITY and various novels that take place during the Ming and Qing Dynasties. The sect is named after the mountain (Mt. Emei) where it makes its base.

Gwok Seung was far, far away from Seung Yeung City when it fell to the Mongols, so she was not present when the rest of her family was wiped out. It was probably the only way she managed to survive.

Jin Yong's version of the Ngor Mei Sect was a Buddhist sect. Many of its members were Buddhist nuns. One assumes that Gwok Seung became a Buddhist nun as well and thus, never got married. She certainly never found Yeung Gor.

[wuming]

Jin Yong never provided the details on Gwok Jing and Wong Yung's deaths. All that is known is that they both died bravely fighting to their very last breath defending Seung Yeung City and its citizens during the Mongols' final siege (about thirteen years after the end of RETURN OF THE CONDOR HEROES).

Just speculating on some possible causes of their deaths:

1) Overwhelmed by sheer speed and number of Mongol soldiers, no chance to escape.

2) Defeated and killed by top Mongol fighters above the calibre of the Golden Wheel Monk.

3) Betrayed ala Yue Fei, William Wallace (Braveheart).

4) They think their deaths will inspire greater resistance ala Braveheart.

5) Hostage scenario with their son and daughter.

6) Any others?


One of the first things the 7 Freaks taught GJ upon returning to China is that he should run if he can't defeat an opponent. As GJ is not one who easily ignores his teachers words, it is strange that he did retreat when the fall of Xiang Yang was imminent. Even Zhang Wu Ji, a very inexperienced leader, knew well enough to retreat into the secret cave when the Beggars Clan attacked after the Guang Ming Peak battle. GJ, if he remembered his teacher's advice, together with the superior intelligence of HR, should be able to reach the same decision.

Maybe Xiang Yang is so strategically important that losing it is equal to losing the whole of China (not?). Or GJ was very concerned that he, being a "hero", cannot be seen to desert his post and would rather die than abandon Xiang Yang. Or they don't want to be viewed as cowards if they retreated.

However, for leaders of his and HR's experience, I feel that it is unlikely that they think that the cause of the war can be better served by their sacrifice over a lost cause. Retreating and regrouping is part of military strategy which they were very familiar with. With their heroic character, they may have viewed it as a cowardly act, but with their combined wisdom and experience, that also seems unlikely. Hmm......

Any possibilities in terms of the real history (if there is one) behind the Mongol conquest of Xiang Yang?

[Zhuge Liang]

Maybe Xiang Yang is so strategically important that losing it is equal to losing the whole of China (not?). Or GJ was very concerned that he, being a "hero", cannot be seen to desert his post and would rather die than abandon Xiang Yang. Or they don't want to be viewed as cowards if they retreated.

Well since the Mongols were attacking Xiang Yang it is pretty clear the whole of China was no longer ruled by Hans. Southern Song was based in the south and i guess the north / zhong yuan / central plains were already under mongol control like much of asia.

Xiang Yang is part of Jingzhou and has always been strategically important as Jingzhou gives access to Jiangnan, the north and also Sichuan. I think that historically Xiang Yang has many times in history been the capital of Jing Province. Control of Xiang Yang does not automatically give you free access but depends on what other surrounding areas you control.

In the time of GJ & HR i think that the fall off XY was fatal for the Song Dynasty. Historically the Emperor of the time did not know that Xiang Yang had been underseige for a long time with no outside help due to him being a bit thick and corrupt officials.

I think GJ & HR had long decided they would defend the city with their lives. For all their manuals, skills & wits: "men can plan but success or failure depends on heaven's will".

[Thai guy]

Very good point to raise. Indeed, I think during that time the Guo's family did not fight the Mongolians alone. They still have the whole Beggar Clan and also the remaing QJ Sect + 2 Yang Guo's sworn sisters+ The Wu Brotehrs+ others fighters that came to help GJ. Thus, I don't think they died due to overwhelmed Mongolian's soldiers. If they died due to the top Mongol fighters who surpassed GWM. In that case, the question is why the other sects such as Shaolin or Er Mei survived. Certainly, the Mongolians should view them as the enemies, especially in case of Er Mei whose founder (and leader) was the survival of Guo's family who appear to reach quite advanced kongfu skills. That top fighters should proceed to destroy Shaolin and Er Mei. So, were they betrayed by someone in Xiang Yang like Yue Fei case? Who betrayed them? I think they took control all of Xiang Yang, including the Beggar Clan was within their controls. So, the choice we have is whether or not GJ and HR thought that their death will inspire the others. I don't personally think that HR will come up with such solutions. In any events, they had time to turn YG's swords into the Heavenly Sword and Dragon Sabre and sought to put something inside these weapons so it appears that though they already knew their endings in advanced and had enough times to do some preparations so that the next generation can proceed upon their plans. So, indeed, I think we come up with the very extraordinary enemy whose IQ should surpass HR and his/her kongfu skills should surpass GJ+HR+Yelu Qi+2 YG's sworn sisters+the next generation QJ leader. Who is that?

[Ken Cheng]

I sometimes get this sinking feeling that Gwok Jing and Wong Yung were finally done in by some unimaginably boneheaded final judgment error by Gwok Fu...one so costly and abrupt that even her mother couldn't think a way out of it and against which even her father's martial arts superiority was useless.

[Thai guy]

I sometimes get this sinking feeling that Gwok Jing and Wong Yung were finally done in by some unimaginably boneheaded final judgment error by Gwok Fu...

But, Guo Fu might be more mature after gettingmarried with Yelu Qi and they spent times together. How could such circumstance happen?

[Zhuge Liang]

But, Guo Fu might be more mature after gettingmarried with Yelu Qi and they spent times together. How could such circumstance happen?

I want to agree with Thai Guy on this because i just simply could not bare the thought of Guo Fu f*ck*ng up yet again. Please, the Guo Fu matures as she ages theory is much more palatable. Bad enough that China is conquered, GJ & HR etc all die... but please don't mention the unthinkable!!

Very good point to raise. Indeed, I think during that time the Guo's family did not fight the Mongolians alone. They still have the whole Beggar Clan and also the remaing QJ Sect + 2 Yang Guo's sworn sisters+ The Wu Brotehrs+ others fighters that came to help GJ. Thus, I don't think they died due to overwhelmed Mongolian's soldiers.

All those plus the soldiers they have are still going to be infinitely numerically inferior to the armies that the Mongol Empire can raise. This is not to mention that for a large part of it they receive no outside help from the Song Administration. Even if Southern Song was under a great leader and full heartedly fighting the Mongols, the picture still looks grim.

If they died due to the top Mongol fighters who surpassed GWM. In that case, the question is why the other sects such as Shaolin or Er Mei survived. Certainly, the Mongolians should view them as the enemies, especially in case of Er Mei whose founder (and leader) was the survival of Guo's family who appear to reach quite advanced kongfu skills. That top fighters should proceed to destroy Shaolin and Er Mei.

It took 100 years before Ming Cult launched a serious offensive. The Yuan Dynasty even then was trying to control wulin but their efforts seemed to consist of getting them to kill each other and forcing them to submit rather than all out assault on them with armies.

In the Qing Dynasty Shaolin often harboured Han rebels but for some reason they did not seem want wipe out Shaolin totally.

In the end the defeat of the few by the many is not surprising. How much of a difference can a handful of good fighters do on the battlefield? Alas even the wise have trouble when overrun by brute force. And Jin Yong probably doesn't have an appetite for altering history too much.

[Ken Cheng]

All those plus the soldiers they have are still going to be infinitely numerically inferior to the armies that the Mongol Empire can raise. This is not to mention that for a large part of it they receive no outside help from the Song Administration. Even if Southern Song was under a great leader and full heartedly fighting the Mongols, the picture still looks grim.

Actually, throughout its history, the Mongol Empire never had a manpower advantage over the sedentary civilizations it conquered (especially China, which even then was by far the world's most populous nation). The Mongols devised many ways of defeating their enemies, but outnumbering the enemy was never an option for the Mongols.

[Zhuge Liang]

That is true but by the time they had control of the central plains, those resources were theirs to command. The population and resources of the north of china have always outnumbered those of the south. And in this specific case it is Mongol Empire versus Xiang Yang since the Emperor does not discover that it is under seige till after a long time.

What kind of techniques did they use? Musta been quite good since they had to start from an inferior position to begin with.

[Ken Cheng]

What kind of techniques did they use? Musta been quite good since they had to start from an inferior position to begin with.

The Mongols had to rewrite their playbook with each new region and each new enemy they encountered because when they started conquering territories outside of the Mongol homeland, they had no experience in fighting wars against sedentary civilizations. The Mongols were masters of the cavalry charge on the steppes of Central Asia. China, with its varied terrain (mountainous, swampy, forested, semi-tropical down in the south, etc.) presented the Mongols with some problems (which is one of the reasons it took nearly seventy years for the Mongols to complete the conquest of China). The Mongols had much more quick success in the West. The Islamic world was subdued with appalling ease and brutality.

The Mongols were also very canny in employing the services of the people they conquered. The army that finally took Seung Yeung included Khitan, Juchen, Chinese, and Arabic mercenaries. The Arabs, in particular, were pivotal in helping the Mongols convert their military from steppe warfare to urban siege warfare (something the Mongols knew nothing about when Genghis Khan had first assembled them, but which they had become very proficient at by the time of Seung Yeung's fall). Arab military engineering technology was among the best in the world at the time, and their catapults, flamethrowers, battering rams, and other siege devices were instrumental in the Mongol victory.

The Mongols under Genghis Khan were also masters of psychological warfare. A popular rumor spread among the sedentary civilizations about the Mongols at the time was that they were warriors with an unquenchable bloodthirst: the Mongols would systematically slay the entire population of a conquered city just because they could. Then, they would slay all the animals in the city. When the animals were all killed, then plants and inanimate objects were eradicated . . . and I do mean *eradicated*. The Mongols were said to have had such violent urges that they even smashed stones into dust, and beat on the dust when there was nothing left to destroy. Northern China was literally *flattened*...as if stricken by a nuclear weapon. This the Mongols did with their bare hands and pre-modern weaponry.

And then, there's that infamous story of how the Mongols overran the Jin Empire's capital city of Yenjing (modern Beijing). Apparently, Genghis ordered the Mongols to capture all of the city's dogs and cats. A burning paper was then attached to each animal's tail, and when the animals were released, they ran home and burned the city down with the torches tied to their tails.

[Candide]

4) They think their deaths will inspire greater resistance ala Braveheart.

That was the real and only possible reason, knowing Guo Jing and Huang Rong.

By the time Xiang Yang Fortress fell to the Mongolians, it was completely surrounded. The Mongolian army had conquered almost every country (Dali fell just before Xiang Yang) and region surrounding it. Xiang Yang was strategically the most important city of Southern Sung, therefore prior to that, the couple could not leave it.

However, it was not the main reason why they couldn't escape. The explanation comes from what Genghis Khan told Guo Jing while they were on top of the hill, surrounded by Wanghan's and Wanan Hongli's soldiers back in Mongolia. Guo Jing told Genghis Khan that he could use his little red horse to escape, and he and the other generals would try their best to fight off Wanghan's army. Genghis told Guo Jing that if he were the type who would just leave his army and run for life, he would never become their Khan.

In terms of population, the Hans outnumbered the Mongols by a hundred times. If the Hans were united, they would crush the Mongols or any other invading force easily. The reason why China fell to the invaders in the 12th and 13th centuries was that the people had no faith in their leaders. Guo Jing and Huang Rong could easily escape even though they were completely surrounded by Mongolian soldiers. However, if they had tried to escape, they would have had to leave their army and the Xiang Yang people, those who had fought alongside with them for all their lives, there for the Mongolians to slaughter. What message would that send to the other millions of Chinese ? It would be: their leaders are cowards and would run for their lives first, not caring about the people. That would damage any faith the Chinese had left to restore their country (seeing that Xiang Yang was essentially the last battlefield).

Yes, Guo Jing and Huang Rong could escape, regroup and fight the Mongols again, but for how long ? They were already in their seventies (I believe) at the time Xiang Yang fell. They were too old for that. Also, they might not have the credibility to recruit another army after they left their previous one to be slaughtered without a leader. They made the wisest choice: to die heroically with perhaps the last fortress of China and inspire the later generations to rise against the Mongolian invaders.