Gwok Jing + Cheun Jen 6 Disciples vs. Wong Yerk See revisited

[Ken Cheng]

At the Battle of Yin Yu Restaurant in LEGEND OF THE CONDOR HEROES, East Heretic Wong Yerk See was able to break the Cheun Jen 6 Disciples' Big Dipper 7 Stars Formation because third-generation Cheun Jen Sect disciple Wan Tze Ping was simply not skilled or powerful enough to replace the slain second-generation disciple Tam Chui Deun in the formation. After Wan was injured and taken out of the battle by Wong Yerk See, however, he was replaced by the much more powerful Gwok Jing, who was at that point far stronger than even any of the individual second-generation Cheun Jen Sect Disciples. With Gwok Jing as the North Star of the formation, the tide began turning against Wong Yerk See, but the battle was interrupted by Prince Yeun Nan Hung Lit's Jin soldiers before it could reach its natural conclusion. If the Jin soldiers had not intervened, however, how would that battle have ended? Could Wong Yerk See have turned the tide back in his favor against Gwok Jing and the Cheun Jen 6 Disciples, or would they have overwhelmed him?

[Athena]

According to the novel, Guo Jing + the Six Masters of Quanzhen had him trapped in the formation.
When Yin Zhiping was tossed aside by Huang, the formation was about to be broken. At that point Guo Jing intervened, thus Quanzhen was gaining the upper hand in the battle, after 50 odd stances Huang Yaoshi was having difficulty to counter attack.
At this point there was another small interruption, Huang Rong coming along etc. etc.
Anyhow the fight continued, the novel stated that even though Huang Yaoshi had help from his daughter he was unable to cope with the Big Dipper Formation. Fortunately for him the Six Masters of Quanzhen did not attack aggressively, so he was able to hold on for some time.

Another note, the novel also stated that if Tan Chuduan was alive, Huang Yaoshi would not able to break the formation in the first place. Yin Zhiping really was the only weak link in this splendid formation, but the weak link would not have existed if Tan Chuduan was alive and kicking.

[Temujin]

The QuanZhen's Big Dipper Formation has been said to be equal a great, and if executed flawlessly can overwhelm a Great.

I'm quite sure (at least I get the impression) that the formation, if executed by its original 7 members should be able to hold up any Greats, with the exception of GJ, YG, ZBT, and maybe WYC since he invented it.

But then again, The surviving Greats in ROCH are at different levels than the Greats in LOCH, they have improved tremendously. Even H7Q and AYF were much better than they were at the end of LOCH.

[Tazzy1972]

given that ROCH happened quite a long time after LOCH, the Greats would have used that time to improve their skills dramatically, especially as there was relative peace with no major wars

[Ken Cheng]

Would there likely have been casualties among Gwok Jing and the Cheun Jen 6 Disciples even if they won? Even if they succeeded in killing Wong Yerk See, would WYS have managed to kill/injure some of them as well before going down?

[Ian Liew]

One of the tragedies of LOCH is we never get to see how the original Big Dipper would have fared against Huang Yaoshi if he occupied the North Star position. Although a lot is made about how important that position is and how the formation cannot hurt you if you stand there, it was never actually tried against a real, full strength, Big Dipper formation. Wang Chongyang should have trained 8 disciples and kept one as a spare or something....

When Guo Jing was occupying the North Star position (which is outside the Big Dipper) who was occupying Tan Chuduan's position within the formation? I recall Ke Zhener and Yin Zhiping pairing up, one instructing and the other executing, but if Yin Zhiping was gone did Ke Zhener occupy the position himself? Guo Jing can't have occupied Tan Chuduan's position because if he did, and then made for the North Star, he would have opened up a big hole within the Big Dipper.

[Ken Cheng]

When Guo Jing was occupying the North Star position (which is outside the Big Dipper) who was occupying Tan Chuduan's position within the formation?

I would shift Ma Yuk into Tam Chui Deun's position, considering that Gwok Jing would be displacing Ma Yuk from the latter's customary North Star position and Tam's position would be the vacant one that Ma could slide into without disrupting the other five members from their familiar positions.

[tape]

One of the tragedies of LOCH is we never get to see how the original Big Dipper would have fared against Huang Yaoshi if he occupied the North Star position. Although a lot is made about how important that position is and how the formation cannot hurt you if you stand there, it was never actually tried against a real, full strength, Big Dipper formation. Wang Chongyang should have trained 8 disciples and kept one as a spare or something....

When Guo Jing was occupying the North Star position (which is outside the Big Dipper) who was occupying Tan Chuduan's position within the formation? I recall Ke Zhener and Yin Zhiping pairing up, one instructing and the other executing, but if Yin Zhiping was gone did Ke Zhener occupy the position himself? Guo Jing can't have occupied Tan Chuduan's position because if he did, and then made for the North Star, he would have opened up a big hole within the Big Dipper.

At the least we get a rough ballpark figure of the strength of this formation; ~Greats level +/- some.

We don't get a chance to see the Zhenwu formation at all! If Zhang Sanfeng is a better martial artist theoretician (just theory, not implying actual combat ) than Wang Chongyang , then the formation should be even more powerful.

[Ian Liew]

I would shift Ma Yuk into Tam Chui Deun's position, considering that Gwok Jing would be displacing Ma Yuk from the latter's customary North Star position and Tam's position would be the vacant one that Ma could slide into without disrupting the other five members from their familiar positions.

Ma Yu didn't occupy North Star, though, he was within the formation holding the Tian Shu (celestial pivot) position. The North Star is outside the seven positions of the Big Dipper, and requires an eighth member to fill. Huang Yaoshi wanted to occupy that position, but Guo Jing took it, and Huang Yaoshi then had to contend with the seven members in the Big Dipper + Guo Jing in the North Star. I'm not sure if having someone occupy the North Star actually increases the effectiveness of the Big Dipper, or whether it just prevents the opponent from taking the "safe spot".


This page from the manga illustrates how the seven took their Big Dipper positions:-

http://99manga.com/page/391/3649.htm?v=17*s=1

This page shows the North Star position in relation to the Big Dipper:-

http://99manga.com/page/391/3749.htm?v=149*s=1

The idea is if you stand in this position - on the same plane in a straight line from Ma Yu and Tan Chuduan (or whoever is taking this position) and maintain it, the formation cannot touch you as it probably pivots around Ma Yu's position.

[ChronoReverse]

The thing is, you can't actually occupy that position if the formation is being used to attack you if the "power levels" are close to equivalent.

For example, if the regular 7 QZ disciples are using the formation, there's no possiblity of HYS of entering that position safely.

[Doc Kwok]

Ma Yu didn't occupy North Star, though, he was within the formation holding the Tian Shu (celestial pivot) position. The North Star is outside the seven positions of the Big Dipper, and requires an eighth member to fill. Huang Yaoshi wanted to occupy that position, but Guo Jing took it, and Huang Yaoshi then had to contend with the seven members in the Big Dipper + Guo Jing in the North Star. I'm not sure if having someone occupy the North Star actually increases the effectiveness of the Big Dipper, or whether it just prevents the opponent from taking the "safe spot".

You get to see some counters for an opponent occupying the North star position by the junior Quanzhen members against GJ at the beginning of ROCH. One way was to reverse your formation so that the North star position shifted to the opposite side, another was to have two formations back-to-back so that one enemy cannot occupy the North star positions of both formations at once.

[Ian Liew]

The thing is, you can't actually occupy that position if the formation is being used to attack you if the "power levels" are close to equivalent.

For example, if the regular 7 QZ disciples are using the formation, there's no possiblity of HYS of entering that position safely.

Yeah - if you could take the North Star position, then you could probably just as well leg it safely! Occupying the north Star doesn't actually allow you to beat the formation either - it just makes it impossible for the formation to hurt you, and you're relying on the seven breaking formation to try something new and less powerful. Back in Niu Villiage, Huang Yaoshi couldn't even escape from the centre of the formation and take a breather to think. At Rain manor he picked on Yin Zhiping's position, forcing the formation to make extra effort to protect the vulnerable position before running circles around the formation to take the North Star. It's conceivable that if he wanted to he could probably have broken the formation through brute force if he wanted to at that stage, but I think he wanted to defeat the formation using tactical means and satisfy his theories in astronomy, rather than actually hurt or kill any of the Quanzhen disciples.

[Doc Kwok]

I do wonder about the person at the end of the 'tail' (normally occupied by Sun Bu'er, the weakest) - wouldn't they be vulnerable since they are only supported on one side? The only way I see it working is if the tail was bent back all the way round towards the body, but then it would look more like a circle than a dipper...

[Doc Kwok]

Occupying the north Star doesn't actually allow you to beat the formation either - it just makes it impossible for the formation to hurt you, and you're relying on the seven breaking formation to try something new and less powerful.

Again, in ROCH, GJ taking this position meant that he was safe from the attacks of the QZ students, but it also left the QZ students wide open and unable to support one another, so it was also ideal for attacking the formation as well as defending. Of course, the problem is still in getting to that position in the first place.

[tape]

Sounds kind of like zone defense in basketball. Help defenders come whichever direction you decide to drive the ball, but if you can make long 3's then the formation is nullified. Add an additional person to harass past the 3 point line (a la North Star) and suddenly you have no plan of attack...

Though like in basketball, it isn't quite that impressive when you're fighting someone 7v1

[Ian Liew]

Again, in ROCH, GJ taking this position meant that he was safe from the attacks of the QZ students, but it also left the QZ students wide open and unable to support one another, so it was also ideal for attacking the formation as well as defending. Of course, the problem is still in getting to that position in the first place.

Since the North Star position is defined as a certain distance along the plane of those first two positions, wouldn't attacking the formation entail leaving the North Star position, though? Or does the distance from the Tian Shu position not matter, just the angle? The whole Big Dipper formation and its weakness sound really cool in theory, but in practice I struggle to visualise how the fight will go.