Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 32

Thread: Dali Emperor Deun Chi Hing's title of address

  1. #1
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    22,821

    Default Dali Emperor Deun Chi Hing's title of address

    Emperor Deun Chi Hing was the sovereign ruler of the Dali Kingdom. According to Chinese imperial customs, then, he should have been addressed as "wong seung" (not the name of the 9 Yum Jen Ging's creator, but the title of address for the national sovereign). All of the emperor's followers, however, referred to Deun Chi Hing as "wong yeh", which translates not into "emperor", but "prince". Why was Deun Chi Hing never referred to by the correct title?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Tazzy1972's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Tazzy Land
    Posts
    1,348

    Default

    think the 'yeh' is used cos he is rather old s in yeh yeh (grandfather)

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,026

    Default

    Wasn't his brother Duen Jing Ming the emperor, or did he give up his throne in favour of Duen Chi Hing?

  4. #4
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    22,821

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CFT
    Wasn't his brother Duen Jing Ming the emperor, or did he give up his throne in favour of Duen Chi Hing?
    You're thinking of the wrong person (Prince Deun Jing Tsun, who was indeed a "wong yeh" prince).

    I'm talking about Deun Chi Hing, who was known by the title of South Emperor and fought at the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament against Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung, East Heretic Wong Yerk See, West Poison Au Yeung Fung, and North Beggar Hung 7 Gung. Later, he became the Buddhist monk known as 1 Deng, and met Gwok Jing and Wong Yung during LEGEND OF THE CONDOR HEROES and Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl during RETURN OF THE CONDOR HEROES.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    ( @ )( @ )
    Posts
    4,651

    Default

    I'm not familiar with Cantonese pinyin, but the wong in "wong yeh" is the same as the wong in "wong seung" if you go by the book. They should both be "Huang" in Mandarin pinyin. They were addressing South Emperor with the correct title.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,026

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    You're thinking of the wrong person (Prince Deun Jing Tsun, who was indeed a "wong yeh" prince).
    Oops!!! You're right Ken, how stupid of me.

    I think you're right, the correct form of address from his retainers should be 'wong seung' not 'wong yea', even if it is the same 'wong' (Candide's comment). Possibly lax dialogue in the script. Would need to go back to the original novel.

    I can see how Gwok Jing could call him Duen wong yea since he is not a Dali subject.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,530

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Candide
    I'm not familiar with Cantonese pinyin, but the wong in "wong yeh" is the same as the wong in "wong seung" if you go by the book. They should both be "Huang" in Mandarin pinyin. They were addressing South Emperor with the correct title.
    It's not the 'wong' that's in question, but the 'yeh' versus the 'seung'.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,530

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Emperor Deun Chi Hing was the sovereign ruler of the Dali Kingdom. According to Chinese imperial customs, then, he should have been addressed as "wong seung" (not the name of the 9 Yum Jen Ging's creator, but the title of address for the national sovereign). All of the emperor's followers, however, referred to Deun Chi Hing as "wong yeh", which translates not into "emperor", but "prince". Why was Deun Chi Hing never referred to by the correct title?
    I'm guessing it's because Duan Zhixing was no longer the Emperor. Therefore, they called him 'yeh'.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    1,480

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Emperor Deun Chi Hing was the sovereign ruler of the Dali Kingdom. According to Chinese imperial customs, then, he should have been addressed as "wong seung" (not the name of the 9 Yum Jen Ging's creator, but the title of address for the national sovereign). All of the emperor's followers, however, referred to Deun Chi Hing as "wong yeh", which translates not into "emperor", but "prince". Why was Deun Chi Hing never referred to by the correct title?
    Like Candide said, misunderstanding due to Cantonese pronunciation.

    The title for Kinglet/Prince/Your Highness is Wangye.

    The title for Emperor/Imperial Majesty is Huangshang, but in Yideng's case, he already abdicated the throne, so he is referred to as Huangye. (Dennis Chen was right)

    Both Wangye and Huangye are pronounced Wong yeh in Cantonese, but the first characters are not the same and have different meanings (Prince/Kinglet versus Emperor).
    對 敵 須 狠 , 斬 草 除 根 , 男 女 老 幼 , 不 留 一 人

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,530

    Default

    Wasn't Duan Zhixing the last Emperor of the Dali Kingdom?
    Last edited by Dennis Chen; 09-24-04 at 01:48 PM.

  11. #11
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    22,821

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Laviathan
    Like Candide said, misunderstanding due to Cantonese pronunciation.

    The title for Kinglet/Prince/Your Highness is Wangye.

    The title for Emperor/Imperial Majesty is Huangshang, but in Yideng's case, he already abdicated the throne, so he is referred to as Huangye. (Dennis Chen was right)

    Both Wangye and Huangye are pronounced Wong yeh in Cantonese, but the first characters are not the same and have different meanings (Prince/Kinglet versus Emperor).
    Interesting. I guess the scriptwriters for the adaptations coughed up again because Emperor Deun's followers referred to him as "wong yeh" even when he was still the emperor (before he had abdicated). At that point, he should still have been "wong seung".

  12. #12
    Senior Member Tazzy1972's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Tazzy Land
    Posts
    1,348

    Default

    yeh sounds more cool than shang

  13. #13
    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    2,308

    Default

    What is Huangdi in Qin Shi Huangdi then? Is it his own name?

  14. #14
    Senior Member Tazzy1972's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Tazzy Land
    Posts
    1,348

    Default

    another term to be used with Huang to address a king

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    1,097

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rabadi
    What is Huangdi in Qin Shi Huangdi then? Is it his own name?
    I'm not very sure since I don't study much about history, but I though it was only Qin Shi Huang. Also I think it is only his title, can't remember his name though. The Huang actually mean yellow or golden, I guess that is why all those emperor wear those yellow or golden uniform. While the shang mean statue or something, It seem to have some relation with the statue of those goddess, god, etc, which people bow to and pray to. except this person is alive one.
    Last edited by TaiHan; 09-25-04 at 10:25 AM.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    1,480

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TaiHan
    I'm not very sure since I don't study much about history, but I though it was only Qin Shi Huang. Also I think it is only his title, can't remember his name though. The Huang actually mean yellow or golden, I guess that is why all those emperor wear those yellow or golden uniform. While the shang mean statue or something, It seem to have some relation with the statue of those goddess, god, etc, which people bow to and pray to. except this person is alive one.
    Huh?

    The First Emperor of China was born Ying Zheng, King of the State of Qin. After he conquered the other six kingdoms, he felt he needed a new title. Ying Zheng took the title Qin Shi Huangdi...

    Qin: the state of Qin, a kingdom which was situated in present-day Sh'anxi province in Western China, first imperial dynasty of China

    Shi: beginning, first

    Huang: August (NOT yellow)

    Di: Emperor

    The title therefore means literally: First August Emperor of Qin.
    對 敵 須 狠 , 斬 草 除 根 , 男 女 老 幼 , 不 留 一 人

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    1,097

    Default

    sorry, I was kind of guessing around but I was actually talking about HuangShang not Qin Shi Huang Di. I already know that it mean the first emperor.

    I wonder is August an important month or something?

  18. #18
    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    1,480

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TaiHan
    I wonder is August an important month or something?
    The month of August was named in honour of the first Roman Emperor Octavian, who held as title "Imperator Augustus" (August Emperor). August here means "majestic" or "venerable".
    對 敵 須 狠 , 斬 草 除 根 , 男 女 老 幼 , 不 留 一 人

  19. #19
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,381

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Laviathan
    The month of August was named in honour of the first Roman Emperor Octavian, who held as title "Imperator Augustus" (August Emperor). August here means "majestic" or "venerable".
    The significance of August in Ying Zheng's title and in Augustus' name is pure coincidence, right?
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  20. #20
    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    1,480

    Default

    Huang does not literary translate as August, but it has more or less the same meaning.

    In Chinese mythology, there were the legendary rulers of San Huang Wu Di (The three High Lords and the Five Emperors). Ying Zheng combined the titles of Huang and Di to form Huangdi (August Emperor).
    對 敵 須 狠 , 斬 草 除 根 , 男 女 老 幼 , 不 留 一 人

Similar Threads

  1. Emperor Guo, the Peoples' Emperor of china
    By Thor in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 10-30-18, 02:13 AM
  2. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-09-16, 08:45 AM
  3. Siu Yiu Sect/Deun Family connections *before* Deun Yu?
    By Ken Cheng in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-15-16, 03:07 PM
  4. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 03-28-07, 04:21 AM
  5. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-09-07, 12:52 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •