John Minford's Deer and the Cauldron review

[SkineePanda]

I bought the 1st and 3rd book of Deer and the Cauldron translated and edited by John Minford. 1st book was actually quite cheap, $14 but for some reason the 2nd and 3rd book was 30 someting a piece.

Anyways the problem I had with the Minford's translation was his translation of characters's names. The main character whom we all know and love is no longer refered to as Wei Xiaobao but as 'Trinket'. Xiang'er is knowned as 'Doublet', Ah'ke is known as 'Green', Mao 18 is known as 'Whiskers', Xiao Xuanzi(kang Xi's pet name) is named 'Misty' and the regulars of TianDi Society are given ridiculous english "nicknames" as well('Beaver' is used) . Sometimes I find it hard to know which character is which becuz of this and it gets somewhat annoying seeing the characters that you care and love be butchered with names like those.

2nd problem is that Minford had the term 'karate" to describe certain characters' fighting. 'Karate' Japanese, 'Kungfu' Chinese, kinda ignorant but no biggy. But for other translations, he used the phrase "Tarmardy" and I guess thats what he replaced Xiaobao's "Ni ah ye"(Your granddad) with. "Hot piece a momma", I don't even kno what original phrase that refers to. Just gay. TianDi Hui isn't called Heaven and Earth society but simply "Triads". There are also poems in the book that somehow rhymes in English but obviously can't be the direct translations of the actual poems in the original work. I understand that his book is trying to appeal to the Western audience by trying to bridge the cultural gap, but hi attempt to do so and his choice of words is more lame than engaging.

3rd problem, it could just be me, but I can't help but think that Minford really omitted certain entire scenes of dialogue and action and replaced them with summarizations. Like after reading Noodle's and Lanny Lin's direct translations, it seemed out of place that JinYong would not describe those scenes vividly and in detail like he is so known for and so well in his other novels. And supposedly this was his last novel, so it should be his most refined writing. But like the part when Chen Jinnan intervened to stop Gui Xinshu's wife from comitting suicide, it was very vague. It didn't describe what move Chen used to save her or how he got injured in the process. It simply said 'Helmsman' saved her but was injured and coughing out blood as a result. There are many more scenes like that. Especially in the 3rd book, at the end of it, it was really less dialogue than I expected, just apparently summarizations of what was being said and done by the characters. Xiaobao's wives were apparently mute by the end of the story, other than 'Doublet'. Not much interaction like what I expected from 7 wives, especially from princess Jian Ning. Its like all these characters had their parts cut out. I could just be paranoid since I never read the original Chinese translation but this really bothered me, feeling that I'm being ripped off reading a severely edited work. Can anyone confirm?

[rabadi]

Not sure about the 3rd problem, as I have not read John Minford's translation, but in the original novel the fight like Chen Jinnan's fight should be described more lengthy.

About the 1st problem, well that's just plain bad. I mean, Graham Earnshaw translated Book & Sword, and he did not translate the names.

About the 2nd problem, as you said yourself, it is a matter of ignorance. Give the Westerners some time... okay, a long time probably

Temujin and Candide are two of the posters here whom I think have recently read John Minford's translation, so you might want to PM them or wait for them to post their responses here.

[shadow8899]

I bought the 1st and 3rd book of Deer and the Cauldron translated and edited by John Minford. 1st book was actually quite cheap, $14 but for some reason the 2nd and 3rd book was 30 someting a piece.

Anyways the problem I had with the Minford's translation was his translation of characters's names. The main character whom we all know and love is no longer refered to as Wei Xiaobao but as 'Trinket'. Xiang'er is knowned as 'Doublet', Ah'ke is known as 'Green', Mao 18 is known as 'Whiskers', Xiao Xuanzi(kang Xi's pet name) is named 'Misty' and the regulars of TianDi Society are given ridiculous english "nicknames" as well('Beaver' is used) . Sometimes I find it hard to know which character is which becuz of this and it gets somewhat annoying seeing the characters that you care and love be butchered with names like those.

2nd problem is that Minford had the term 'karate" to describe certain characters' fighting. 'Karate' Japanese, 'Kungfu' Chinese, kinda ignorant but no biggy. But for other translations, he used the phrase "Tarmardy" and I guess thats what he replaced Xiaobao's "Ni ah ye"(Your granddad) with. "Hot piece a momma", I don't even kno what original phrase that refers to. Just gay. TianDi Hui isn't called Heaven and Earth society but simply "Triads". There are also poems in the book that somehow rhymes in English but obviously can't be the direct translations of the actual poems in the original work. I understand that his book is trying to appeal to the Western audience by trying to bridge the cultural gap, but hi attempt to do so and his choice of words is more lame than engaging.

3rd problem, it could just be me, but I can't help but think that Minford really omitted certain entire scenes of dialogue and action and replaced them with summarizations. Like after reading Noodle's and Lanny Lin's direct translations, it seemed out of place that JinYong would not describe those scenes vividly and in detail like he is so known for and so well in his other novels. And supposedly this was his last novel, so it should be his most refined writing. But like the part when Chen Jinnan intervened to stop Gui Xinshu's wife from comitting suicide, it was very vague. It didn't describe what move Chen used to save her or how he got injured in the process. It simply said 'Helmsman' saved her but was injured and coughing out blood as a result. There are many more scenes like that. Especially in the 3rd book, at the end of it, it was really less dialogue than I expected, just apparently summarizations of what was being said and done by the characters. Xiaobao's wives were apparently mute by the end of the story, other than 'Doublet'. Not much interaction like what I expected from 7 wives, especially from princess Jian Ning. Its like all these characters had their parts cut out. I could just be paranoid since I never read the original Chinese translation but this really bothered me, feeling that I'm being ripped off reading a severely edited work. Can anyone confirm?

I believe if you read the foreword, Minford explains about the cut in detail.. if he translated Jin Yong word for word, the books would have have been much longer or there would have been more books..

As for the names, the use of the names Trinket, etc... makes it easier for someone who doesn't know the characters to follow along.. yes, it makes it hard for someone who knows the characters accept the names, I hated the stupid translations too, but it makes sense.

[Candide]

is trying to appeal to the Western audience

I find 100% of those (books, movies, etc.) LAME (with all uppercase letters). If the Western audience wants to read Eastern stuff, learn it properly. Doing this is totally misleading them.

[Temujin]

I bought the 1st and 3rd book of Deer and the Cauldron translated and edited by John Minford. 1st book was actually quite cheap, $14 but for some reason the 2nd and 3rd book was 30 someting a piece.

Wow $14 ? You're lucky. I paid $30 for the first book.

Anyways the problem I had with the Minford's translation was his translation of characters's names. The main character whom we all know and love is no longer refered to as Wei Xiaobao but as 'Trinket'. Xiang'er is knowned as 'Doublet', Ah'ke is known as 'Green', Mao 18 is known as 'Whiskers', Xiao Xuanzi(kang Xi's pet name) is named 'Misty' and the regulars of TianDi Society are given ridiculous english "nicknames" as well('Beaver' is used) . Sometimes I find it hard to know which character is which becuz of this and it gets somewhat annoying seeing the characters that you care and love be butchered with names like those.

Yes, this was annoying to me too.

Wei XiaoBao, the name we all familiar with was changed to Trinket Wei or in short, just Trinket. Off course, there are other Westernization with names as well, and it does loses its charm and Chinese-ness

2nd problem is that Minford had the term 'karate" to describe certain characters' fighting. 'Karate' Japanese, 'Kungfu' Chinese, kinda ignorant but no biggy. But for other translations, he used the phrase "Tarmardy" and I guess thats what he replaced Xiaobao's "Ni ah ye"(Your granddad) with. "Hot piece a momma", I don't even kno what original phrase that refers to. Just gay. TianDi Hui isn't called Heaven and Earth society but simply "Triads". There are also poems in the book that somehow rhymes in English but obviously can't be the direct translations of the actual poems in the original work. I understand that his book is trying to appeal to the Western audience by trying to bridge the cultural gap, but hi attempt to do so and his choice of words is more lame than engaging.

Yes, the use of word 'KARATE' reflects ignorant to me. Even my Caucasian friends here know the differences between Karate, Kung fu and Tae Kwon Do. This is something that the auther could have changed and should have used the world 'KUNG FU' instead.

TianDi Hui refered as Triads really doesn't do its justice. I agree. Since it's not really a triad. I mean if someone who doesn't know Wuxia, Chinese culture and society read this and that person could have the wrong impression when he read the word 'triad' in there.

But I guess it is still a much better translation compared to Olivia Mok's 'Fox Volant in the Snowy Mountain'

I believe the Graham Earnshaw who has translated 'Romance of the Book & Sword' did a much better job at translating. Another good example would be Becky Tai's 'The Eleventh Sonth' or Lanny Lin's 'Smiling Proud Wanderer'

3rd problem, it could just be me, but I can't help but think that Minford really omitted certain entire scenes of dialogue and action and replaced them with summarizations. Like after reading Noodle's and Lanny Lin's direct translations, it seemed out of place that JinYong would not describe those scenes vividly and in detail like he is so known for and so well in his other novels. And supposedly this was his last novel, so it should be his most refined writing. But like the part when Chen Jinnan intervened to stop Gui Xinshu's wife from comitting suicide, it was very vague. It didn't describe what move Chen used to save her or how he got injured in the process. It simply said 'Helmsman' saved her but was injured and coughing out blood as a result. There are many more scenes like that. Especially in the 3rd book, at the end of it, it was really less dialogue than I expected, just apparently summarizations of what was being said and done by the characters. Xiaobao's wives were apparently mute by the end of the story, other than 'Doublet'. Not much interaction like what I expected from 7 wives, especially from princess Jian Ning. Its like all these characters had their parts cut out. I could just be paranoid since I never read the original Chinese translation but this really bothered me, feeling that I'm being ripped off reading a severely edited work. Can anyone confirm?

Yes, I noticed that too. But Minford did mention it in the preface (notes) of his books. This summarization seems a lot more obvious in the third book. When you read the third you can feel how he suddenly just summarized everything together, even the fight scenes and other amusing conversation. I believe the rape scene was cut too and he didn't give us too much details about it.

I guess if he didn't shorten it or cut corners here and there, he would have to translate another book, which makes it a four-volume novel instead of three.

[duguxiaojing]

hmm i was thinking of buying novel from ebay not so sure anymore though....

[Battosai]

The problem with some of the more scholarly translations of JY is their total lack of understanding over wugong terminology. If they'd do a little more research, it'd be easy but they don't.

Name translations are stupid. The rationale is asine because by making names more comprehensible, he's also devaluing the artistic worth of the said piece. C'mon, who'd ever seriously consider a character named "trinket"?

[Candide]

C'mon, who'd ever seriously consider a character named "trinket"?

It's not as if your average Western reader cannot say Xiao Bao... Trinket, what a retarded sounding name.

[Dagger Lee]

Where could I buy this book? I can't find it at the local library.

[greyman]

I have read volumes 1 and 2 , and am debating whether to buy volume 3.(which is showing up as $14.00 on Amazon) . After reading Moin,Noodles, Lanny Lin, Meh , Kirara , Junzi , Athena and all the wonderful translators on this forum, I have to say that John Minford falls short. (I just couldn't get to the level of excitement and involvement I feel when reading the translations here.)
I have also read that this was JY's best work..unfortunately I can't agree based on my reading from Minford and comparing it with what's here on SPCNET/ Zhaomin/ Lanny lin's sites. There is also a blurb somewhere in the Deer& Cauldron preface/reviews that he (John Minford) plans to translate condor heroes in the future!!! I was initially excited, but am having second thoughts now....

[greyman]

It's not as if your average Western reader cannot say Xiao Bao... Trinket, what a retarded sounding name.

Actually, John minford gives a pretty detailed reason for the "trinket" name in the translation..... He says that the original name meant "little treasure" and that was why he chose "trinket" as the synonym for "little treasure"...As an interesting fact, he does mention that when people became eunuchs in those times, the ...ahem...cutoff parts .. used to be carefully mummified and preserved .. and used to be called the eunuch's "treasure"...insinuating what was REALLY meant by "little treasure" !!!!!!!!!
I have a feeling JY had a LOT of fun in writing this novel ....evil evil fun..

[Laviathan]

TianDi Hui refered as Triads really doesn't do its justice. I agree. Since it's not really a triad. I mean if someone who doesn't know Wuxia, Chinese culture and society read this and that person could have the wrong impression when he read the word 'triad' in there.

Well, the Triads were derived from the Heaven & Earth Society, so it's not totally wrong...

Anyhoo, Olivia Mok and John Minford make, with all due respect, lame translations. *SHUDDER*

[SkineePanda]

I have read volumes 1 and 2 , and am debating whether to buy volume 3.(which is showing up as $14.00 on Amazon) . After reading Moin,Noodles, Lanny Lin, Meh , Kirara , Junzi , Athena and all the wonderful translators on this forum, I have to say that John Minford falls short. (I just couldn't get to the level of excitement and involvement I feel when reading the translations here.)
I have also read that this was JY's best work..unfortunately I can't agree based on my reading from Minford and comparing it with what's here on SPCNET/ Zhaomin/ Lanny lin's sites. There is also a blurb somewhere in the Deer& Cauldron preface/reviews that he (John Minford) plans to translate condor heroes in the future!!! I was initially excited, but am having second thoughts now....

I haven't gotten vol. 2 yet, but vol. 3 is just lazy. I feel like I'm reading a sypnosis instead of a full novel. There seems to be more of that in the 3rd than the 1st, almost like it was being rushed for publication. Half the time, I felt like I was missing out on something while reading it. I rather buy 4 or 5 volumes of a true, full, faithful version of the novel than a half-***, watered-down, lame-*** attempt of a translation.

[Candide]

Actually, John minford gives a pretty detailed reason for the "trinket" name in the translation..... He says that the original name meant "little treasure" and that was why he chose "trinket" as the synonym for "little treasure"...As an interesting fact, he does mention that when people became eunuchs in those times, the ...ahem...cutoff parts .. used to be carefully mummified and preserved .. and used to be called the eunuch's "treasure"...insinuating what was REALLY meant by "little treasure" !!!!!!!!!

That's 100% bullshit. While it's true that enuchs kept their old pals as little treasures, that is not the origin of Wei Xiao Bao's name.

[greyman]

That's 100% bullshit. While it's true that enuchs kept their old pals as little treasures, that is not the origin of Wei Xiao Bao's name.

Well, JM only hints at the connection...He mentions it immediately after saying "trinket" means little treasure. He doesn't say that that is THE meaning of the name...being chinese illiterate I can't judge whether he is right, I am just quoting what's in the book.....