Did Gwok Jing match/surpass Wong Seung's understanding of the 9 Yum Jen Ging?

[Whsie]

Indeed, but no matter how talented you can do that only after only reaching a mature level of understanding. YG did it quicker than GJ because the former was more talented. Neverthles, Zhang wuji achieved Great levels far quicker than either of them. Not to mention the tons of martial arts theory Xie xun forced him to memorise....

Still I wonder, would 9 Ying allow one to learn QKDNY as quickly as 9 Yang? if it's all about internal strength, 9 Yin should do also right?

Well, partly, ZWJ had Z3F's help, and I think Z3F's knowledge rivals even WCY.

Yes, GJ (55) was about ZWJ's level. You have to completely finish at least the internal portion of the 9 Yin. And you also have to make the 9 Yin Real Chi flow completely throughout your body. In other words, unless you have another QK bag, you probably won't be able to get to the level needed within 5 years.

[Richrf]

Cheung Mo Gei had the benefit of five completely interruption-free, distraction-free time to master the 9 Yeung Jen Ging...and a fortuitous encounter with a certain bag.

Five?

Yes, Zhang Wuji is a lucky bastard, in terms of circumstances allowing him to learn kungfu probably the luckest in all of JY's novel. It's like rolling Duan Yu + Xu zhu into one so he got both inner strength and technique falling into his lap.

Even guys like YG and GJ had to get a string of teachers to learn a bunch of skills some not so good before they got the good ones. And they had to practise like crazy.

Zhang wuji got 2 of the best skills quickly, and the rest was easy to learn... Not to mention sucking on Zhangsanfen's knowledge.

By comparison, Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor's martial arts training processes were interrupted by one crisis after another.

Actually crisises might actually be good, at least for heroes in the 'learning' stages, pre-Great stages. For example even ZWJ only mastered 9 Yang totally when in a crisis (that bag thing) or when attacked by Miejue (the accepting 3 blows part), he suddenly realised what some parts of the 9 Yang meant. YG had his internal strenght increase a couple of times during the adventures, or his understanding enhanced by looking at great masters fight... E.g watching GJ he finally realised some parts of the 9 Yin...

IMHO once you reach Great or near-Great stage, the opposite occurs, the more time you have to spend on just hidding in a cave pracising your skills the better.
That is why I don't think GJ gained much improvements particularly in techniques once he started guarding XY.

Should be. I don't know if the 9 Yeung Jen Ging's yang nature as opposed to the 9 Yum Jen Ging's neutral nature would have made a difference.

Which is better 9 Yang or 9 Ying?

[Athena]

The argument that Guo Jing has little time or does not have the conditions to practise martial arts anymore when he is guarding Xiangyang City does not really hold up, in my opinion.
Yang Guo when he was the Divine Eagle Hero had both time to practise martial arts and fight injustice.
The Golden Wheel Monk was the High Imperial Priest of the Mongolian empire, he had both religious and political duties to perform in the empire. But he had time to improve his skills.
Guo Jing on the other hand has a Guo residence in Xiangyang City. He does not have to personally train the soldiers (anymore or the entire time). In fact, he has the best conditions there are to cultivate his internal energy.
I believe that Guo Jing's internal strength has the same powerful amount as Yang Guo but also it is as pure as Yideng's or Jueyuan's.
This does not mean I place Guo Jing higher than Yang Guo.

[ech33]

from what i know, 9 YANG is stronger in terms of internal energy as it focuses only on energy cultivation where as 9 YIN focuses on 2 aspects -internal & martial arts and the focuses on more the martial arts aspects, which mean in terms of internal strength will be 9 YANG and in terms of martial artss is 9 YIN.

[Richrf]

The argument that Guo Jing has little time or does not have the conditions to practise martial arts anymore when he is guarding Xiangyang City does not really hold up, in my opinion.
Yang Guo when he was the Divine Eagle Hero had both time to practise martial arts and fight injustice.

Differences between YG 'fighting injustice' and GJ in XY.

* GJ was a family man, that takes away time.

* GJ had disciples to teach. More time gone.

* GJ/ HR was a prominent name, they had to spend time dealing with jianghu matters, rallying support from jianghu friends to help defend XY.

* GJ has HR, which helps half the load.

Basically once he left peach bossom island, he had no moment of peace.

Guo Jing on the other hand has a Guo residence in Xiangyang City. He does not have to personally train the soldiers (anymore or the entire time).

No offense but this makes it sound like GJ is just a normal resident in XY and he just waits around until the mongols come to invade the city, and he stands at the gates and shouts "charge"!!!

If that was all he did he would hardly be worshipped as a hero. You might be right perhaps at the start that he wasn't involved, but i think he pretty much becomes the general after a while, the way he is hero worshipped.

GJ and HR spend a lot of time planning strategy (YG and GJ had a talk about this on how they plan to defend XY) , rallying support from friends etc.

In fact, he has the best conditions there are to cultivate his internal energy.

A war-torn city constantly under attack, with people looking up to him to lead them in everything, is a good tranquil place to cultivate internal energy?

You are kidding right?

There is a reason why all the masters run away to caves, islands and temples to get some peace to study. Once you made your name in jianghu, you can have no moment of peace.

Look at the 4 greats for example. None of them have fixed residences, or if they do, each residence is in some out of the way place that you would be crazy to go to.

Or they start big sects, so they have disciples to chase away everyone else.

GJ has a simple address, Xiangyang city, Guo residence... No big sect either besides family just 2 disciples. Given GJ's honorable name, people would be lining up, asking him to help them avenge this wrong.... settling this or that dispute etc.

And knowing GJ he will spend time helping them.....

The Golden Wheel Monk was the High Imperial Priest of the Mongolian empire, he had both religious and political duties to perform in the empire. But he had time to improve his skills.

I think the main difference is that because the mongols are so succuessful the GWM seldom has to do much. Not sure about his political duties, but the way i see it , his post is a result of his martial arts skill, so all he has to do is to keep it No 1.

Poor GJ has to constantly figure out ways to win despite the ineptness of the Han government.

I believe that Guo Jing's internal strength has the same powerful amount as Yang Guo but also it is as pure as Yideng's or Jueyuan's.
This does not mean I place Guo Jing higher than Yang Guo.

I have full respect for GJ's internal strength. It's his techniques that I don't trust. Pro GJ fan's seem to think XL18Z is a solution to all problems, but as the GWM as shown fighters at that level aren't terrified by it.

[Ken Cheng]

GJ and HR spend a lot of time planning strategy (YG and GJ had a talk about this on how they plan to defend XY) , rallying support from friends etc.

It's a tough job, but not one that consumed 24 hours of Gwok Jing's day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, 16 years in a row.

A wartorn city constantly under attack, with people looking up to him to lead them in everything, is a good tranqui place to cultivate internal energy?

The sixteen year period of Yeung Gor's wait for Little Dragon Girl was relatively tranquil on the Seung Yeung front. Gwok Jing and his allies could not afford to let their guard down. On the other hand, the Mongols had suffered some setbacks and had a few internal problems of their own, so those sixteen years were relatively quiet.

I think the main difference is that because the mongols are so succuessful the GWM seldom has to worry and concenerate on minor details. Poor GJ has to constantly figure out ways to win despite the ineptness of the Han government.

The Golden Wheel Monk was the Imperial Priest of the Mongol Empire. His responsibilities ran much deeper than fighting Gwok Jing and his allies. He was nothing less than the spiritual and religious leader of the world's reigning empire. He was probably the equivalent of the Dalai Lama or the Pope.

I have full respect for GJ's internal strength. It's his techniques that I don't trust. Pro GJ fan's seem to think XL18Z is a solution to all problems, but as the GWM as shown fighters at that level aren't terrified by it.

You seem fixated on the idea that Hong Lung 18 Palms was the be all and end all of Gwok Jing's martial arts. He had an entire book of 9 Yum Jen Ging techniques that he had practiced, to say nothing of Peach Blossom Island Techniques, Vacant Fist, etc.

As for "not being terrified" of the Hong Lung 18 Palms, there was a reason that the Golden Wheel Monk didn't dare to really fight Gwok Jing until he had some heavy duty back up. The Mongol warriors all but soiled themselves after they saw what happened to Wan Hak Sai after he took a hit from Gwok Jing's palm.

[yittz]

When GWM faught GJ, he looked pretty bad. GJ defeated Yin Ke Xing, who is the next level below greats in one move (albeit a surprise attack).

GJ's arsenal includes L/R, 9Yin techniques (9Yin claws is countered by 9Yin techniques, yet it was feared so much in Jianghu), vacant fist as well as modified XL18Z. What does YG have?

Ken beat me to it again. And forgot to mention Peach blossum techniques - any technique by HYS deserves special attention

[Ken Cheng]

What does YG have?

Well, a whole bunch of stuff too. Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor had one thing in common in terms of their martial arts repertoires: both were quite diverse. In some cases, a few of their skills overlapped (although to different extents).

[Richrf]

It's a tough job, but not one that consumed 24 hours of Gwok Jing's day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, 16 years in a row.

Strawman argument! I said it's consumed a lot of his time, obviously not 24 hours, unless you think GJ doesn't need to eat,drink or sleep. (You don't think that right?)

Someone's bias is showing....

The Golden Wheel Monk was the Imperial Priest of the Mongol Empire. His responsibilities ran much deeper than fighting Gwok Jing and his allies. He was nothing less than the spiritual and religious leader of the world's reigning empire. He was probably the equivalent of the Dalai Lama or the Pope.

Interesting speculation about him being the Dalai Lama or the Pope. Where does it say that? His position was a marital one, he was the first protector. And besides since when did religion stop shaolin monks from becoming superbly skilled? For all you know, GWM's religious cultivation helps in training.

You seem fixated on the idea that Hong Lung 18 Palms was the be all and end all of Gwok Jing's martial arts.

Not me, it's the posts here. Every fight you see mentioning GJ is XL18Z. It's like the unbeatable weapon.

He had an entire book of 9 Yum Jen Ging techniques that he had practiced, to say nothing of Peach Blossom Island Techniques, Vacant Fist, etc.

QZ skills, Jiangnan skills, etc etc Yes, yes, I know like every respectable JY hero he has a vast diversity of skills, reflected in Guo's Xiang's Emei later. But against strong opponent's, his tried and tested skill is.......

As for "not being terrified" of the Hong Lung 18 Palms, there was a reason that the Golden Wheel Monk didn't dare to really fight Gwok Jing until he had some heavy duty back up.

GWM likes to fight only if he can be 100% sure he wins. And as we know and is mentioned a lot of times, if they fought it would be 50-50. But he exchanged blows with GJ's XL18Z at least twice with no problems. To imply that he feared XL18Z is really misleading.

Also he had no problems agreeing to fighting a 3-3 match to decide the wuling leader, and he even named first, surely this means he didn't fear facing GJ.


Later on his confidence was shaken when he saw young people like YG with such skills.
He might have assumed that GJ would be what YG would have achieved decades on. Of course, YG was far better than GJ at the same age as HR herself says.

The Mongol warriors all but soiled themselves after they saw what happened to Wan Hak Sai after he took a hit from Gwok Jing's palm.

So what? If you are not a great obviously a Great attack looks scary.

[yittz]

Well, a whole bunch of stuff too. Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor had one thing in common in terms of their martial arts repertoires: both were quite diverse. In some cases, a few of their skills overlapped (although to different extents).

YG had bits and pieces of everything. HYS taught him a bit, OYF taught him a bit (unless he managed to get the whole toad skill in one night), H7G + HR taught him the whole set of dog beating stick, he had whole QZ and AT. But his main skill was all that condensed into a few stances and the HIS.

[Richrf]

YG had bits and pieces of everything. HYS taught him a bit, OYF taught him a bit (unless he managed to get the whole toad skill in one night), H7G + HR taught him the whole set of dog beating stick, he had whole QZ and AT. But his main skill was all that condensed into a few stances and the HIS.

AT= Anicent tomb?

He also had a lot of 9 Yin. The parts which WCY wrote to counter the jade maiden skills, plus parts he learns from the reverse 9 Yin from OYF, plus the parts he learnt just by watching GJ and one of the other greats ( i forgot who).

[yittz]

GWM likes to fight only if he can be 100% sure he wins. And as we know and is mentioned a lot of times, if they fought it would be 50-50. But he exchanged blows with GJ's XL18Z at least twice with no problems. To imply that he feared XL18Z is really misleading.

Also he had no problems agreeing to fighting a 3-3 match to decide the wuling leader, and he even named first, surely this means he didn't fear facing GJ.


Later on his confidence was shaken when he saw young people like YG with such skills.
He might have assumed that GJ would be what YG would have achieved decades on. Of course, YG was far better than GJ at the same age as HR herself says.

JLFW was severely misinformed about that event. IMO he would have lost against GJ. If Zhu ZiLi wasn't such a gentleman, the Mongols would have gone home 2-0. He didn't fear against GJ because he didn't do his homework properly. When the Hans suggested that the disciple of the great hero H7G matches his disciple Huo Dou, he agreed ... until Huo Dou said to him HD cannot defeat GJ.

GJ has nothing to fear from JLFW either. JLFW was made to look bad several times in front of GJ. Once when he was force into muteness after arrogantly took GJ's palm without diffusing the force, once when GJ broke his bow after displaying awesome qing gong (comeon the Mongols cheered for him), and once when they failed to capture GJ - pretty embarrassing when you are given the title and the enemy's fighter is able to enter and exit camp at will.

And what's wrong with XL18Z?
H7G was a great because of it.
Xiao Feng was highly dominant with XL18Z.
Jin Yong seemed to have the intention of heroes were given XL18Z, heroes dominated with XL18Z.

[Athena]

Nevermind. Deleted post, Ken and Yittz have already beaten me to it.

[Richrf]

GJ has nothing to fear from JLFW either.

No doubt, it was 50-50 heck I don'tt even claim GJ would lose to JLFW. My point is at the level we are talking about XL18Z isn't an instant win. While the last part of Post #56 seems to imply that GWM is scared of the XL18Z, that is why he comes with backup.

JLFW was made to look bad several times in front of GJ. Once when he was force into muteness after arrogantly took GJ's palm without diffusing the force, once when GJ broke his bow after displaying awesome qing gong (comeon the Mongols cheered for him), and once when they failed to capture GJ - pretty embarrassing when you are given the title and the enemy's fighter is able to enter and exit camp at will.

I'm not really that big a fan about the GWM (he's maybe slighly below the greats), but generally pro-GJ fans seems to like to put him down I think even though in actual one on one fights they are probably equal according to the book.

The first was arrogance, enough said. No bearing on how powerful he really is.

The second , i give props to GJ, GJ is matchless with bow.

The third, I think is simply GWM, being over confident (again), it was 5-1 after all, plus an ace up his sleeve in YG. The wiley GWM probably, thought there was no hurry, and played it safe, watching his allies use up GJ strength, then he pounced and hurt GJ, and it would have worked, if YG didn't have a change of heart.

And what's wrong with XL18Z?

Nothing. I just like more subtle skills.

H7G was a great because of it.

But he prefered dog beating cane skills.??

Xiao Feng was highly dominant with XL18Z.

Yes yes, XF, another fan favourite here.

Admit it, you guys love XL18Z....

Jin Yong seemed to have the intention of heroes were given XL18Z, heroes dominated with XL18Z.

Did you know Zhangwuji knew some of it too? But he's underestimated I think

[one>two]

GWM likes to fight only if he can be 100% sure he wins. And as we know and is mentioned a lot of times, if they fought it would be 50-50. But he exchanged blows with GJ's XL18Z at least twice with no problems. To imply that he feared XL18Z is really misleading.

Also he had no problems agreeing to fighting a 3-3 match to decide the wuling leader, and he even named first, surely this means he didn't fear facing GJ.
.

I think what he meant was after the first encounter with GJ the GWM decided to gang up on GJ with the other mercs plus they had YG as a backstabber and they had the army, which seems kinda sad considering they are considered equals. That might not show "fear" but it shows a great lack of confidence for him to defeat GJ in a fair fight. Although GWM is a villain, i think he still cared for how other people view himself as a fighter and how they viewed the mongols as a race of warriors. You have to remember that the Mongols normally look down on underhand tactics and would prolly not resort to it unless it was absolutely neccessary.

[one>two]

The third, I think is simply GWM, being over confident (again), it was 5-1 after all, plus an ace up his sleeve in YG. The wiley GWM probably, thought there was no hurry, and played it safe, watching his allies use up GJ strength, then he pounced and hurt GJ, and it would have worked, if YG didn't have a change of heart.

If there was no YG, GJ would have escaped unscratched..The only reason he didnt leave the camp was because he thought YG couldnt escape and went back to get him. Then the deciding blow was landed when YG (being carried by GJ on his back) delibertly faked a cry for help. GJ got distracted when he hit YG's attacker.

Saying YG saved GJ there is like when a guy pushes u when ur sitting on a riverbank then they pull u back and proclaim "SAVED UR LIFE!"...doesnt count

[Richrf]

If there was no YG, GJ would have escaped unscratched..

True, but if there was no YG, Fa wang, would have attacked harder. The ace in the hole making things much easier.

The only reason he didnt leave the camp was because he thought YG couldnt escape and went back to get him. Then the deciding blow was landed when YG (being carried by GJ on his back) delibertly faked a cry for help. GJ got distracted when he hit YG's attacker.

Exactly. That how a cheater bug the golden wheel monk is. He was banking on that. With YG on their side, any 'escape' GJ manages is illusionary really.

Besides I don't really like even in normal circumstances (where the attacher doesn't have the advantage of a trojan horse) to measure how good one person is versus a bunch of guys, if the main goal of the one person is to run away.

I think if one of the greats tried to run and the other 3 greats tried to capture him, the great would get away, but it certainly doesn't mean, that the great who is running away is superior.

In GJ's case it's one great vs another + 2 near greats (the third was taken out with a quick attack). Not that difficult .

Saying YG saved GJ there is like when a guy pushes u when ur sitting on a riverbank then they pull u back and proclaim "SAVED UR LIFE!"...doesnt count

Huh? I know you don't like YG but Nobody is trying to give credit to YG for that save. You must be thinking of another YG-GJ debate

[Richrf]

I think what he meant was after the first encounter with GJ the GWM decided to gang up on GJ with the other mercs plus they had YG as a backstabber and they had the army, which seems kinda sad considering they are considered equals. That might not show "fear" but it shows a great lack of confidence for him to defeat GJ in a fair fight. Although GWM is a villain, i think he still cared for how other people view himself as a fighter and how they viewed the mongols as a race of warriors. You have to remember that the Mongols normally look down on underhand tactics and would prolly not resort to it unless it was absolutely neccessary.

Yes GWM has a serious confidence problem. He should talk to my shrink.

To me GWM is a sneaky guy who doesn't care about 'face' , he only talks about it, when it suits his purpose (e.g to prevent people from attacking him on mass), but he has no problems doing it to others, or kidnapping children.

I personally think that the mongols are more pragmatic than you give them credit for. A warrior culture doesn't necessary mean they frown on trickery or outnumbering opponents.

I would add that it's not XL18Z per se that GWM gives respect to (to put it nicely), it is GJ and his internal strength thanks to 9 yin. I don't remember him thinking "Wow XZ18Z is really scary... " or something like that. It's more like general comments on how GJ moves, breathes and stuff.

[yittz]

Well in the end techniques are dead, the practitioner is alive. 6MSJ on Ben monks hands weren't that impressive, in DY's beefed up internal energy (and XF's advice) it's a different story. In HSDS, XL18Z didn't look good under Shi Huo Long's hands - that's only because he is 2-3 levels below GJ/XF in both the internal and talent field.

btw there's quite a number of ZWJ fans here, and likewise YG fans.
There are at least 5 ZWJ fans from the top of my head.

[Ken Cheng]

Strawman argument!

Now where have I seen that recently?

Is this the debating equivalent of the Mo Yung Family's "Shifting Star Technique?"

I said it's consumed a lot of his time, obviously not 24 hours

Right. So there must have been time for martial arts training, right?

Someone's bias is showing....

It sure is.

Interesting speculation about him being the Dalai Lama or the Pope. Where does it say that?

Um, his title of "Fa Wang" or, in ROCH Ed. 3, "Guo Shi?" Both these titles indicate high religious/spiritual status. They were not empty honorifics given to anybody who showed up with great fighting skills. The Golden Wheel Monk's importance to Mongolian society lay primarily in his spiritual and religious duties. That he had great martial arts as well and was very useful to the Khan in combatting the empire's enemies was a nice bonus, but even if the Golden Wheel Monk lost all his martial arts, he'd still be an important (and busy) person in the Mongol Empire. Look at Kau Mor Tze from DGSD. He lost his great martial arts by the end of the novel, but he was still the Tubo Kingdom's spiritual leader and hence, still responsible for conducting that country's spiritual affairs.

Not me, it's the posts here. Every fight you see mentioning GJ is XL18Z. It's like the unbeatable weapon.

How about showing us some of these posts where "every fight mentioning GJ is XL18Z." It's his main martial art. Of course he's going to use it in his important fights. What are we supposed to mention? The Gong Nam 7 Freaks' skills?

Also, produce some quotes of posts that characterize Hong Lung 18 Palms as "unbeatable."

QZ skills, Jiangnan skills, etc etc Yes, yes, I know like every respectable JY hero he has a vast diversity of skills, reflected in Guo's Xiang's Emei later. But against strong opponent's, his tried and tested skill is.......

And this is a problem because....?

GWM likes to fight only if he can be 100% sure he wins. And as we know and is mentioned a lot of times, if they fought it would be 50-50. But he exchanged blows with GJ's XL18Z at least twice with no problems. To imply that he feared XL18Z is really misleading.

The Golden Wheel Monk feared just about anything he didn't know he could beat (which included Hong Lung 18 Palms, Dog Beating Stick Technique, Double Sword Technique, and...well, pretty much all the martial arts of the Greats).

Also he had no problems agreeing to fighting a 3-3 match to decide the wuling leader, and he even named first, surely this means he didn't fear facing GJ.

The Golden Wheel Monk was quite confident that his students could overcome anybody the Chinese sent against them (other than Gwok Jing). In his view, it would never come down to a fight between Gwok Jing and himself because either his two students would defeat their opponents or Gwok Jing would defeat one of the Golden Wheel Monk's opponents, but the monk himself would defeat whomever the Chinese sent against him.

Of course, YG was far better than GJ at the same age as HR herself says.

You'll get no disagreement there. By the end of ROCH, however, all the remaining Greats were at about the same level. Strange, no? If Yeung Gor was already on par with the Greats at the age of twenty (by no means a proven fact), why was he still on par with them sixteen years later? Did he peak early?

So what? If you are not a great obviously a Great attack looks scary.

Yeah, and so the problem is...?