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Thread: Did Gwok Jing match/surpass Wong Seung's understanding of the 9 Yum Jen Ging?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Did Gwok Jing match/surpass Wong Seung's understanding of the 9 Yum Jen Ging?

    I've long held the opinion that no mere practitioner of a martial art (especially a highly advanced one) can master that art more effectively than its originator. That being said, it's not necessarily true. Gwok Jing was the only individual other than Wong Seung himself to have mastered the complete 9 Yum Jen Ging. Did Gwok Jing's mastery of this martial art surpass even its creator's?

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    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    ZWJ mastered QKDNY better than its inventor.

    Do we have enough info on HS based on the story told by ZBT to GJ in the Peach Blossom Island? I'm afraid we can't reach conclusion without enough evidence, but as usual since I'm biased to GJ, I'd say yes he surpassed HS

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    Senior Member ToOn99's Avatar
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    I don't think GJ had fully understood 9 Yin Jen Jing. In fact, compared to WCY, I think his level of understanding might be even lower.
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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToOn99
    I don't think GJ had fully understood 9 Yin Jen Jing. In fact, compared to WCY, I think his level of understanding might be even lower.
    It's very possible that Wong Chung Yeung understood the 9 Yum Jen Ging better than Gwok Jing did at an abstract, conceptual level. Wong Chung Yeung, however, never practiced the 9 Yum Jen Ging while Gwok Jing did.

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    Senior Member ToOn99's Avatar
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    but u asked about the level understanding didnt u ?
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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToOn99
    but u asked about the level understanding didnt u ?
    Yes, but don't take it too literally: the title space just wasn't long enough to describe everything as thoroughly as I wanted to (I'm a fan of title lines that go on for 100 pages).

    In martial arts, understanding must be parlayed into usage to be of any practical good. That's why I didn't include Wong Chung Yeung (or Chow Bak Tung, for that matter) in the discussion. Wong Yu Yin "understood" a boatload of martial arts too, but she couldn't fight a whit.

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    Senior Member ToOn99's Avatar
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    ok ,
    I'll answer no, not even closed to HS. . Why, If HS could wipe out all ming cult sect at his time, he should be pretty something.
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    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToOn99
    ok ,
    I'll answer no, not even closed to HS. . Why, If HS could wipe out all ming cult sect at his time, he should be pretty something.
    HS was a great fighter in that battle, but it had *nothing* to do with 9 Yin, 'cause the battle was prior to him fully inventing 9 Yin. Okay, technically the 1st volume was there, but it was still not a full 9 Yin.
    Last edited by rabadi; 10-11-04 at 03:45 AM.

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    Senior Member KJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabadi
    HS was a great fighter in that battle, but it had *nothing* to do with 9 Yin, 'cause the battle was prior to him fully inventing 9 Yin. Okay, technically the 1st volume was there, but it was still not a full 9 Yin.
    But 9 Yin was a compilation of what WS knew in terms of Martial arts concepts. Therefore it does have something to do with 9 Yin. I don't understand why you said it had nothing to do with 9 Yin? It's not like he fought Ming Sect and then discovered a 9 Yin manual in a cave somewhere. He created that manual.

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    Senior Member Tazzy1972's Avatar
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    creating does not make HS the best practitioner
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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KJ
    But 9 Yin was a compilation of what WS knew in terms of Martial arts concepts. Therefore it does have something to do with 9 Yin. I don't understand why you said it had nothing to do with 9 Yin? It's not like he fought Ming Sect and then discovered a 9 Yin manual in a cave somewhere. He created that manual.
    Forty years separated the time that Wong Seung fought the Ming Cult and the time he completed the 9 Yum Jen Ging. With that much time invested, there must have been drastic differences between the martial arts he used to battle the Ming Cult and the martial arts that became the 9 Yum Jen Ging. Moreover, Wong Seung invented the 9 Yum Jen Ging because he believed that his previous martial arts were inadequate to defeat the Ming Cult members.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabadi
    ZWJ mastered QKDNY better than its inventor.
    This is true, but we must consider the circumstance that Cheung Mo Gei received a tremendous artificial boost from having first learned the 9 Yeung Jen Ging. Without it, it's doubtful he could have surpassed the Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee's creator in this art.

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    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    I doubt that HS actually understand less than GJ of something that he had created. He did compose the internal energy part himself, and created all the techniques. Unless if there are deeper theories that eh didn't even know that he created himself, then I doubt that he doesn't have the full knowledge of it.
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    Senior Member ToOn99's Avatar
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    say GJ did know what HS know about 9 Yin fighting stuff, but we all know GJ isn't that good at Healing Thingy of 9 Yin. so, basically he still < HS in terms of understanding the concept.
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    Senior Member Tazzy1972's Avatar
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    think tat is also true... toon but tat could be due to the fact tat gj only practiced the fightinh part of 9y...
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    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KJ
    But 9 Yin was a compilation of what WS knew in terms of Martial arts concepts. Therefore it does have something to do with 9 Yin. I don't understand why you said it had nothing to do with 9 Yin? It's not like he fought Ming Sect and then discovered a 9 Yin manual in a cave somewhere. He created that manual.
    See Ken Cheng's post. He explained it much better than I probably could I also put (*) around nothing (which I mean it is not absolute condition).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    This is true, but we must consider the circumstance that Cheung Mo Gei received a tremendous artificial boost from having first learned the 9 Yeung Jen Ging. Without it, it's doubtful he could have surpassed the Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee's creator in this art.
    How about Golden Wheel Monk surpassing the original creator of Dragon & Elephant whatever-the-heck-it-was?

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    Senior Member Tazzy1972's Avatar
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    Quick Qn here.... how would HS know what is the ultimate level of 9Y if he did not achieve it? I mean he can;t just say that doing this this this would enable to achieve that that that unless he has done it.... same goes for all the other martial skills..
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    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazzy1972
    Quick Qn here.... how would HS know what is the ultimate level of 9Y if he did not achieve it? I mean he can;t just say that doing this this this would enable to achieve that that that unless he has done it.... same goes for all the other martial skills..
    All good martial artist are able to conceptualize and project ahead of the strength and weaknesses of their respective martial arts, HS is the same. He projects ahead.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Guo Jing might have not surpassed HS's understanding, since the latter was the creator afterall, but I'm willing to bet anything on GJ being better than WCY. I don't know why some people say that WCY understood 9 Yin better than GJ. That doesn't make sense at all. GJ had practiced it for 50 years by the time he died. WCY looked at it for 10 days. Of course, initially WCY had a better understanding since GJ started learning 9 Yin when he was a complete novice while WCY was wulin's #1 !
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    Senior Member Battosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide
    Guo Jing might have not surpassed HS's understanding, since the latter was the creator afterall, but I'm willing to bet anything on GJ being better than WCY. I don't know why some people say that WCY understood 9 Yin better than GJ. That doesn't make sense at all. GJ had practiced it for 50 years by the time he died. WCY looked at it for 10 days. Of course, initially WCY had a better understanding since GJ started learning 9 Yin when he was a complete novice while WCY was wulin's #1 !
    Normally I'd agree but I don't know. There's the Tian Xian Gong, which might have helped WCY tremendously at least in the NG department. GJ had nothing comparable. He had the QZ NG as his base, then learned 9Yin. We know that TXG is much better than QZ NG so while GJ's 9Yin ZQ might be purer than WCY's, I think WCY might have more raw power and better understanding due to his better foundation.

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