Yin vs. Yang

[ToOn99]

Yang = hard ---- why 9 Yang Shen Gong tends to be soft and 9 Yin Jen Jing tends to be hard. ???

[Xiao Feng]

A very good example of the ambiguity we are all facing here we can look at the Xuan Ming Divine Palms. It is describe by JY as a very very very Yin technique. Is it a "soft" skill so to speak? No it surely isn't. It packs quite a punch in fact. Is it then a "neutral" technique? I have no idea how you are going to relate "neutral" with Xuan Ming Divine Palms. Then why the hell is it Yin. In this case it might be describing other aspects of it such as it being very very "han" or "cold" so to speak or being a very very vicious style. Yin has always been identified with cold and not so nice things eg. a very cruel person will be descibe as being very "yin du". Yang on the other hand has always been identified with hot stuff and happy stuff. I hope someone knows what the hell I'm saying

[Xiao Feng]

Yang = hard ---- why 9 Yang Shen Gong tends to be soft and 9 Yin Jen Jing tends to be hard. ???

I'm not sure, depends on what its describing. Maybe 9 Yang energy is warm and gentle and thus gives the practitioner a calming, soothing feeling. ??? Just hypothetically speaking. And 9 Yin energy is more of a very powerful but harsh sort of thing??? Again hypothetically speaking. Is there any taoist or martial arts theory expert around?

[ChronoReverse]

You know, I don't understand this "yin = soft" business. Where exactly does it say in JY's novels that Yin implies soft?

The examples of "yin" techniques I can remember are either poisonous, cold, vicious or "complicated" (as in using lots of moves to disguise an attack).

Furthermore, the most famous "soft" technique, Tai Chi, was invented by ZSF, in an attempt to recreate some of the lost power of 9 Yang, which is undoubtable "yang".

[Xiao Feng]

You know, I don't understand this "yin = soft" business. Where exactly does it say in JY's novels that Yin implies soft?

The examples of "yin" techniques I can remember are either poisonous, cold, vicious or "complicated" (as in using lots of moves to disguise an attack).

Furthermore, the most famous "soft" technique, Tai Chi, was invented by ZSF, in an attempt to recreate some of the lost power of 9 Yang, which is undoubtable "yang".

Its the Yin and Yang thing. Even if we aren't talking about martial arts or JY, Yang means Hard, Yin means Soft. Thats just the way it is. Just like the same way Yang = Males, Yin = Females. Or similarly the Sun and the Moon. Yin or Soft for Taichi in this sense isnt referring to Taichi's theories which comes from 9 Yang. Its referring to its external attributes.

And I agree that Yin = poisonous, cold, vicious, complicated and i'd put soft in this list too.

[ToOn99]

I happened to learn feng shui a little bit. What come up in my mind is the concept of 9 Yang and 9 Yin are the same as the one in feng shui.
People who lack of fire element are to be said fire element people. In the same way, 9 Yang itself can mean full of yin and 9 yin can mean full of yang.
Just my thought,

[Homura]

okay this message to everyone, that 9 Yin is NEUTRAL, NEUTRAL, NEUTRAL, NEUTRAL, NEUTRAL, NEUTRAL, NEUTRAL.........
It have been repeated many time in this thread already.

If you read the book, it said that 9 Yin contained both Wei Jia(hard) and Nei Jia(soft). the Demon Subding Fist was hard. 9 Yin White Claw was capable of punching holes in a skull, that is not a soft technique. that goes the same for the internal energy.

No need to get so worked up man. Chill.

I believe no one here is a master of kungfu or qi-gong or whatever. Therefore everyone here is of the same qualification ---> Nerdy armchair wuxia novel enthusiast.

You have your opinion, no need to shout it at other people. (Unless you are some great kungfu master, in which case, I humbly beg your forgiveness)

[Tazzy1972]

dun thin yin == soft and yang == hard per se jus terminology

[ChronoReverse]

Its the Yin and Yang thing. Even if we aren't talking about martial arts or JY, Yang means Hard, Yin means Soft. Thats just the way it is. Just like the same way Yang = Males, Yin = Females. Or similarly the Sun and the Moon. Yin or Soft for Taichi in this sense isnt referring to Taichi's theories which comes from 9 Yang. Its referring to its external attributes.

And I agree that Yin = poisonous, cold, vicious, complicated and i'd put soft in this list too.

The thing is, even when I think about it outside Wuxia novels (in cantonese), "yin" doesn't really imply soft to me.

"yin" gives me a connotation of "shadiness" or "evilness" while "yang" gives me "straightforwardness" and "righteousness" (connotation not definition or meaning).

So where does "soft" come into this?


Of course, from what I know of Taoism, they're just opposing universal forces.

[CC]

I don't think of Yin as necessarily soft.

Yin can be cold and hard, Yang warm and soft.

Its not easy to put Yin and Yang in words.

Only thing for sure is that Yin is never used for heat and Yang never cold.

[TaiHan]

No need to get so worked up man. Chill.

I believe no one here is a master of kungfu or qi-gong or whatever. Therefore everyone here is of the same qualification ---> Nerdy armchair wuxia novel enthusiast.

You have your opinion, no need to shout it at other people. (Unless you are some great kungfu master, in which case, I humbly beg your forgiveness)

well, it was stated over 4 or 5 times in this thread by 2 to 3 different people. It felt dumb restating the same thing over and over again. it kind of got redundant after awhile.

but I'm not mad, I just hope they get message. which I think it did work

If I did sound aggressive, I sorry .

for the yin and yang thing.
In novel wise, I just define internal energy as yin and yang. While technique, I just define as hard or soft, etc.

[Xiao Feng]

The thing is, even when I think about it outside Wuxia novels (in cantonese), "yin" doesn't really imply soft to me.

"yin" gives me a connotation of "shadiness" or "evilness" while "yang" gives me "straightforwardness" and "righteousness" (connotation not definition or meaning).

So where does "soft" come into this?


Of course, from what I know of Taoism, they're just opposing universal forces.

Soft comes into it exactly because the opposing force theory. Eg. Dragon Palms is describe as the most yang style under heaven. Clearly implying that it is the hardest style this side of the milky way. Since this is a fact then the opposite will be yin which is................................................ .............................bloody SOFT.

Me thinks you are still stuck by your general knowledge of wuxia to be able to view it like this. You can even classify it this way, anything that is associated with masculinity can be said as Yang, anything feminine is then Yin.

Some nice info about Yin/Yang:

The yin and yang represent all the opposite principles one finds in the universe. Under yang are the principles of maleness, the sun, creation, heat, light, Heaven, dominance, and so on, and under yin are the principles of femaleness, the moon, completion, cold, darkness, material forms, submission, and so on. Each of these opposites produce the other: Heaven creates the ideas of things under yang, the earth produces their material forms under yin, and vice versa; creation occurs under the principle of yang, the completion of the created thing occurs under yin, and vice versa, and so on. This production of yin from yang and yang from yin occurs cyclically and constantly, so that no one principle continually dominates the other or determines the other. All opposites that one experiences—health and sickness, wealth and poverty, power and submission—can be explained in reference to the temporary dominance of one principle over the other. Since no one principle dominates eternally, that means that all conditions are subject to change into their opposites.

This cyclical nature of yin and yang, the opposing forces of change in the universe, mean several things. First, that all phenomena change into their opposites in an eternal cycle of reversal. Second, since the one principle produces the other, all phenomena have within them the seeds of their opposite state, that is, sickness has the seeds of health, health contains the seeds of sickness, wealth contains the seeds of poverty, etc. Third, even though an opposite may not be seen to be present, since one principle produces the other, no phenomenon is completely devoid of its opposite state. One is never really healthy since health contains the principle of its opposite, sickness. This is called "presence in absence." Once you have this principle down, the particular Chinese view as expressed in literature,

And another one:

In India the theory of the three elements in the Chândogya Upanishad led to the theory of the three forces, the gunas, and to the later theory of five elements. In China, the theory of five elements coexisted early with the theory of two forces: yin1 and yáng. In the Spring and Autumn Period there was actually a Yin and Yang School. Later its theories were accepted by nearly everyone, but especially by Taoism. The implications of the theory are displayed in the great book of divination, the I Ching, the "Book of Changes."

Yin originally meant "shady, secret, dark, mysterious, cold." It thus could mean the shaded, north side of a mountain or the shaded, south bank of a river. Yang in turn meant "clear, bright, the sun, heat," the opposite of yin and so the lit, south side of a mountain or the lit, north bank of a river. From these basic opposites, a complete system of opposites was elaborated. Yin represents everything about the world that is dark, hidden, passive, receptive, yielding, cool, soft, and feminine. Yang represents everything about the world that is illuminated, evident, active, aggressive, controlling, hot, hard, and masculine. Everything in the world can be identified with either yin or yang. Earth is the ultimate yin object. Heaven is the ultimate yang object. Of the two basic Chinese "Ways," Confucianism is identified with the yang aspect, Taoism with the yin aspect.

Although it is correct to see yin as feminine and yang as masculine, everything in the world is really a mixture of the two, which means that female beings may actually be mostly yang and male beings may actually be mostly yin. Because of that, things that we might expect to be female or male because they clearly represent yin or yang, may turn out to be the opposite instead.

Taoism takes the doctrine of yin and yang, and includes it in its own theory of change. Like Anaximander and Heraclitus, Taoism sees all change as one opposite replacing the other. The familiar diagram of Yin and Yang flowing into each other, the earliest attested example of which, strangely enough, occurs on a Roman shield illustrated in the fifth century Notitia Dignitatum, also illustrates, with interior dots, the idea that each force contains the seed of the other, so that they do not merely replace each other but actually become each other.

[Xiao Feng]

well, it was stated over 4 or 5 times in this thread by 2 to 3 different people. It felt dumb restating the same thing over and over again. it kind of got redundant after awhile.

but I'm not mad, I just hope they get message. which I think it did work

If I did sound aggressive, I sorry .

for the yin and yang thing.
In novel wise, I just define internal energy as yin and yang. While technique, I just define as hard or soft, etc.

Since you quote one of my post for your rant, I would like you to have a look at post 86 which is my rant in response to yours.

[ChronoReverse]

@Xiao Feng

I don't disagree with anything in your quotes. In fact, my knowledge of Yin-Yang is already similar to what's in there.

What I contend, is the implication that HL18P is Yang because it's sheer force. Yang, implies directnessness. HL18P is straightforward and uses force to directly attack. HL18P is Yang.

However, this doesn't mean that softness cannot be direct either.

For example, there was nothing "shady" about Vacuum Fist, ZBT used it in a straightforward manner. However, when Vacuum Fist intercects an attack (incidentally a precept of 9 Yang... paraphrased, "Wait for the opponent to attack before attacking"), the attacker will find that the power behind their attack is dissipated. Not because of trickery, but because the power behind Vacuum Fist is used to dissipate force.

Me thinks you are still stuck by your general knowledge of wuxia to be able to view it like this. You can even classify it this way, anything that is associated with masculinity can be said as Yang, anything feminine is then Yin.

I have no idea what you mean by this since I'm using my knowledge outside of Wuxia to judge this. You'll have elaborate more.

Where have I said it isn't neutral? I only said it was Yin. If Yin = Neutral then naturally Neutral = Yin. I said GJ's inner energy is Yin, hence Neutral. Wrong?

Even when you have a mixture or balance of Yin/Yang they are still not necessarily the same (even if they form the same "one"). This quote from you is incorrect because GJ's power is not "yin". Furthermore, "neutral" doesn't follow from "yin".

[TaiHan]

Since you quote one of my post for your rant, I would like you to have a look at post 86 which is my rant in response to yours.

i already read it,

I hope know you that I wasn't aiming you but I aiming at the general.

if you did feel being attacked, I could only say I'm sorry .

actually if you read my post #82 and Candide post #83
I think I should reword the question and ask that does it seem harsh to the people in this thread .

[Xiao Feng]

@Xiao Feng

I don't disagree with anything in your quotes. In fact, my knowledge of Yin-Yang is already similar to what's in there.

What I contend, is the implication that HL18P is Yang because it's sheer force. Yang, implies directnessness. HL18P is straightforward and uses force to directly attack. HL18P is Yang.

However, this doesn't mean that softness cannot be direct either.

For example, there was nothing "shady" about Vacuum Fist, ZBT used it in a straightforward manner. However, when Vacuum Fist intercects an attack (incidentally a precept of 9 Yang... paraphrased, "Wait for the opponent to attack before attacking"), the attacker will find that the power behind their attack is dissipated. Not because of trickery, but because the power behind Vacuum Fist is used to dissipate force.





I have no idea what you mean by this since I'm using my knowledge outside of Wuxia to judge this. You'll have elaborate more.



Even when you have a mixture or balance of Yin/Yang they are still not necessarily the same (even if they form the same "one"). This quote from you is incorrect because GJ's power is not "yin". Furthermore, "neutral" doesn't follow from "yin".

And I agree with you on part one.

And I also contend to the fact that Dragon Palms Yang refers only to its directness. Its more than that. Its not just direct but forceful as well as overwhelming. Thats Dragon Palms. Thats its "Yang"ness so to speak.
And then regarding Vacant fist. Like I said you have to know what aspect you are talking about. So what aspect is it your are talking about? Sure in the sense of directness of movement it is direct. In the sense of forcefullness it is not. In theory, Vacant Fist intercepts and redirects the energy somewhere else (energy cannot be destroyed, only manipulated) so its sort of nonconfrontational.

Part 2, I was basically saying that in the theory of Yin/Yang, Yin represents feminity and thereby everything that goes with it. Yang represents masculinity and therefore everything that goes with it as well. Softness or "Rou" is an aspect of feminity and hence Yin.

Part 3 however was not directed at you . Its for TaiHan if you noticed.

[Xiao Feng]

i already read it,

I hope know you that I wasn't aiming you but I aiming at the general.

if you did feel being attacked, I could only say I'm sorry .

actually if you read my post #82 and Candide post #83
I think I should reword the question and ask that does it seem harsh to the people in this thread .

I know you are aiming at the general public. Just wanted to give you a nice nudge so to speak.

Still, I think you should me more specific about something. You said 9 Yin energy is neutral rite? I might agree with that since I don't know better and 9 Yin energy doest not necessarily means its all Yin. There might be some other profound meaning behind it. But Yin definitely cannot be neutral cos if Yin is neutral then there isn't a need for Yang to balance it. So, I'm thinking you ONLY mean 9 Yin energy is neutral and not Yin in general rite?

[ChronoReverse]

#1 Vacuum Fist doesn't redirect the power though. It dissipates it. And when you use internal energy, it'll even injure the opponent. Rather like overwhelming the opponent with softness and power eh?

#2 Perhaps, but Yang is also described as gentleness too. It's not completely clearcut sometimes

#3 I know, but I felt I needed to re-iterate where there was a mistake. In any case, he's been maintaining that 9 Yin [b]internal energy[/i] is neutral.

[Xiao Feng]

#1 Vacuum Fist doesn't redirect the power though. It dissipates it. And when you use internal energy, it'll even injure the opponent. Rather like overwhelming the opponent with softness and power eh?

#2 Perhaps, but Yang is also described as gentleness too. It's not completely clearcut sometimes

#3 I know, but I felt I needed to re-iterate where there was a mistake. In any case, he's been maintaining that 9 Yin [b]internal energy[/i] is neutral.

1) You can't dissipate energy. You have to change it to something else somehow. Energy is indestructible. So I reckon Vacant fist changes the opponents energy into heat or etc. And taichi basically uses the opponents energy against himself. It injures too. So does other skills cos what use is a skill if it can't hurt? Being able to injure does not mean its hard. And overwhelming of the opponent isnt the principle of vacant fist.

2) Yes it is ambiguous. Read my post about Xuan Ming Divine Palms. Thats why you have to be specific about what aspect of a certain thing you are classifying as Yin/Yang.

3) I'm not sure, cos I'm not an expert in the trilogy so I can't comment about what he said cos he says it from the book. All I know is that 9 Yin inner energy may or may not be neutral cos its a bloody complex thing anyway and 9 Yin Zhen Jing is just a bloody name. So it doesn't necessarily mean everything is Yin. BUT, Yin is definitely not neutral.

[Tazzy1972]

yeap... energy cannot be destroyed only converted wonder wat vacant fist converts it to??