Sun Moon Sect and Ming Sect Connections

[bliss]

Not sure if this was ever mentioned on this forum before, but there seems to be a lot of evidence to support the fact that the Sun Moon Sect in XAJH is a trickle-down of the Ming Sect of HSDS.

For one, if you put the Sun and Moon characters together, you get the Ming character. After leadership of the Ming Sect was given to Zhu Yuanzhang by Zhang Wuji, he organized and lead the revolt that overthrew the Yuan government. He then ascended the throne himself and formed the Ming Dynasty, yes JY made the implication that the Ming Dynasty got its name from the Ming Sect. Anyway, my theory is that what most likely occurred is that Zhu turned power hungry and paranoid about his former Ming Sect buddies and most likely purged and hunted them down. Former Ming Sect members probably changed the name and organized under Sun Moon Sect, as a figurative way of showing the split. Since they were forced to hide from the Imperial Government of the Ming, the Sun Moon Sect most likely hide to stick to shady business and eventually turned into the evil-doing sect that it was in XAJH.

Other notable similarities: Ming Sect and Sun Moon Sect both have the same titles for their "Grand Left and Grand Right Hand Men". Yang Xiao and Fan Yao in HSDS, Xiang Wentian and Qu Yang in SoD. Although the Sun Moon Sect seemed to have shed all the religious rituals and rites that the old Ming Sect held, they still did seem to carry a certain mysticism that seemed reminiscent of the Ming.

[Candide]

Was posted a long time ago The connections in the 2nd eds were obvious, however it wasn't the case in the first eds. In the original SPW, the Sun Moon cult (not sect) was called the Rising Sun cult and there was no hint about a connection to the Ming cult in HSDS. In the 2nd ed, JY decided to rename it to the Sun Moon cult and put every possible hint he could think of there to make this cult the re-emerged Ming cult.

Anyway, my theory is that what most likely occurred is that Zhu turned power hungry and paranoid about his former Ming Sect buddies and most likely purged and hunted them down.

Exactly what was mentioned in HSDS v2.0.

[rabadi]

That was exactly my second or third questions/posts in this wuxia forum when I joined in September 2002. I can't remember clearly, but I think it was Athena who replied to my question, and no, she said there's no connection between the two. I can't remember the reasons, though. You might want to PM her or wait for her to show up and post here, or perhaps anybody else remember?

[Tazzy1972]

it seemse a bit far-fetched unless it is stated in the novels

[kamii]

WAH!! i always assumed that the two were one!!! Wat the..........they aren't??? ok.......

[Ken Cheng]

WAH!! i always assumed that the two were one!!! Wat the..........they aren't??? ok.......

Not overtly, although Jin Yong apparently left enough hints that a reader could arrive at the conclusion that the two sects were related if he really wanted to. The old-school Ming Cult was wiped out by Chu Yeun Cheung during the process of establishing the Ming Dynasty and installing himself as the first Ming Emperor of China, but that does not preclude the possibility of surviving elements of the old Ming Cult reorganizing as the Sun Moon Cult later on during the Ming Dynasty.

[foreva]

Can someone list/point out the hints from the book, besides those that bliss mention. that seems rather interesting, but I never made the connection. perhaps because I don't read xiao ao jiang hu faithfully, but just browse through it.

[Ren Wo Xing]

I think it's pretty well and firmly established that the Ming Sect is the predecessor of the Sun Moon Sect. So a question comes up.

By the end of HSDS, the Ming Sect was no longer considered an evil, heretical organization; it had saved the great orthodox schools on more than one occasion, and its leader, Zhang Wuji, had deep ties with several of the remaining schools as well. Even the three Divine Reverends of Shaolin had dropped their enmity with the Ming Sect.

But by the start of XAJH, the Sun Moon sect was firmly considered by the orthodox schools to be considered the 'Demonic sect', and it seemed as though that was how things had been for quite some time.

What caused this shift, from status of being a relatively upright organization, to one which was once more the enemy of the orthodox Wulin?

Does anyone know? Any ideas?

[dewyloony123]

As soon as Zhu Yuanzhang came to power, he ruthlessly eliminated the Ming Sect, as well as many others (this is true, historical fact). My conjecture is that the sect members who survived the purge must've been a singularly scheming and tough bunch--natural selection, as it were. They probably chose their successors for similar virtues, thus founding a demonic sect with a bad reputation.

[smurf120]

maybe there was general distrust of "foreigners" and religions so members never really gained full acceptance into regular society? while we are on that subject does it mean that Ren Wo Xing's Chi Absorbing skill (kup sing dai fat) is a streamlined variation of Kin Kwan Dai Loi Yeen.

[Ren Wo Xing]

maybe there was general distrust of "foreigners" and religions so members never really gained full acceptance into regular society? while we are on that subject does it mean that Ren Wo Xing's Chi Absorbing skill (kup sing dai fat) is a streamlined variation of Kin Kwan Dai Loi Yeen.

No, it's stated in the book that 'my' XXDF was derived from Beiming.

[PJ]

As soon as Zhu Yuanzhang came to power, he ruthlessly eliminated the Ming Sect, as well as many others (this is true, historical fact). My conjecture is that the sect members who survived the purge must've been a singularly scheming and tough bunch--natural selection, as it were. They probably chose their successors for similar virtues, thus founding a demonic sect with a bad reputation.

Moreover, I suspect Yuanzhang Zhu spread nasty words about Ming Cult, blinding the perception of public.

[PJ]

I found another similar characteristic between Sun Moon and Ming.

In SPW, Dongfang Bubai sweet-talked The Master of Thundering Wind Hall - Tong Baixiong, and brainwashed him right before their "fight" -- which was nothing more than a Single-Stance Execution. Tong Baixiong apparently fell for the trick.

In HSDS, Xie Xun and Golden Flower Granny engaged in a similar "I've cared so much about you all my life" conversation. It was stated that right after this mushy talk, they would have a duel to the death, and they both knew it.

Dongfang Bubai, a leader of Sun Moon Sect, did exactly what the leaders of the Ming Cult did. The only difference is that his subordinate wasn't quite in the "club" to have a mutual understanding.