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Thread: Genghis Khan: were there warning signs for Gwok Jing?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Genghis Khan: were there warning signs for Gwok Jing?

    Jin Yong's depiction of Genghis Khan in LEGEND OF THE CONDOR HEROES differs from most historical treatments of the 13th Century Mongol leader because JY portrays Genghis as a three-dimensional human being rather than the savage, murderous barbarian that many works of both historical discussion and fiction portray Genghis as. As he grew up in Mongolia, the young Gwok Jing admired Genghis Khan as a courageous, selfless man who had given himself entirely to the cause of uplifting his Mongol brethren...doing all he could to give his Mongol brothers and sisters the powerful, wealthy nation he believed they deserved. To Gwok Jing, Genghis Khan was everything that the leaders of the Sung Dynasty were not. Unlike the Sung emperor and his sycophants, who knew only to exploit the people of the Sung Kingdom, Genghis cared passionately about his nation and his people.

    Gwok Jing later learned, of course, that this was merely one aspect of the Khan' s personality...the best part. There was another part to the Khan that Gwok Jing had been blind to: the pitiless, ambitious conqueror who would not rest until all who opposed or resisted him were crushed under his heel.

    Did Gwok Jing discover this too late? Were there warning signs, even when Gwok Jing was growing up in Mongolia, of Genghis Khan's dark side that Gwok Jing might have noticed had he been sensible to these things? Or was Genghis' positive side so thoroughly captivating that everyone (including the reading audience) errantly believed in him?

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    Senior Member douggilmour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Gwok Jing later learned, of course, that this was merely one aspect of the Khan' s personality...the best part. There was another part to the Khan that Gwok Jing had been blind to: the pitiless, ambitious conqueror who would not rest until all who opposed or resisted him were crushed under his heel.
    I'm only talking about JY' Genghis Khan. So What's wrong w/ being an ambitious conqueror? He gave GJ numerous chances to be apart of his empire, but still GJ refused. Genghis also judged that GJ would be a threat when he invaded Sung, so he had to get rid of him; this action is not all that uncommon in history regarding great leaders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by douggilmour
    I'm only talking about JY' Genghis Khan. So What's wrong w/ being an ambitious conqueror? He gave GJ numerous chances to be apart of his empire, but still GJ refused. Genghis also judged that GJ would be a threat when he invaded Sung, so he had to get rid of him; this action is not all that uncommon in history regarding great leaders.
    Gwok Jing did not want to be a conqueror, and this is where he began to part in ideology with Genghis Khan. Gwok Jing was a chivalric hero, and his goal was to uphold justice and protect the innocent. Genghis was a nationalistic hero, whose goal was to build an empire for his people whatever the cost. Ultimately, the two men were after different things, but I wonder how soon Gwok Jing could have realized that.

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    Well, it is GJ we're talking about here, so the moment he realized Genghis Khan was not Mr. Ambitious Man Who Only Kicks The Behinds Of People I Don't Care About Or Hate was when he opened that sealed pouch ordering him to invade Sung.

    GJ was blinded by his thirst for vengeance against Yuen Ngan Hong Lit so he was more than happy to be GK's puppy (or rather, pit bull) running over most of Northern Asia until his master ordered him to bite his "family."

    YG gets flack for letting his thirst for vengeance almost blind him and betray his country, which he did not because he is innately a hero, but I never hear anything about GJ's even worse transgressions against humanity in the name of vengeance. At least GJ gave up his chance to marry WY by begging GK to stop the slaughter of civilians (I forget the name of the country they were fighting, it was Fa Mo Chi Ji or something like that), but the fact remains the civilians were being slaughtered because he was the one who engineered the plan that broke down their city. What did he think was going to happen once the city fell? That's right, he doesn't think.

    Another reason why GJ ranks quite low in my book.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    ...the pitiless...
    About that part, perhaps GJ had his warning when Genghis Khan killed his traitor sworn-brother (what's his name?). True, this sworn-brother of his betrayed him badly, but perhaps Genghis Khan could spare his life, IMHO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfox2002
    Well, it is GJ we're talking about here, so the moment he realized Genghis Khan was not Mr. Ambitious Man Who Only Kicks The Behinds Of People I Don't Care About Or Hate was when he opened that sealed pouch ordering him to invade Sung.

    GJ was blinded by his thirst for vengeance against Yuen Ngan Hong Lit so he was more than happy to be GK's puppy (or rather, pit bull) running over most of Northern Asia until his master ordered him to bite his "family."

    YG gets flack for letting his thirst for vengeance almost blind him and betray his country, which he did not because he is innately a hero, but I never hear anything about GJ's even worse transgressions against humanity in the name of vengeance. At least GJ gave up his chance to marry WY by begging GK to stop the slaughter of civilians (I forget the name of the country they were fighting, it was Fa Mo Chi Ji or something like that), but the fact remains the civilians were being slaughtered because he was the one who engineered the plan that broke down their city. What did he think was going to happen once the city fell? That's right, he doesn't think.

    Another reason why GJ ranks quite low in my book.
    We've actually had this discussion already.

    http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=8753

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    Oh I didn't know. I haven't visited this part of the SPC forum much. Been a little behind in my Wuxia talk in recent months.
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    well flyingfox welcome back
    TaZzY InC

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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfox2002
    YG gets flack for letting his thirst for vengeance almost blind him and betray his country, which he did not because he is innately a hero, but I never hear anything about GJ's even worse transgressions against humanity in the name of vengeance. At least GJ gave up his chance to marry WY by begging GK to stop the slaughter of civilians (I forget the name of the country they were fighting, it was Fa Mo Chi Ji or something like that), but the fact remains the civilians were being slaughtered because he was the one who engineered the plan that broke down their city. What did he think was going to happen once the city fell? That's right, he doesn't think.

    Another reason why GJ ranks quite low in my book.
    like we knew guo jing is a dumbness guy
    he just knew how to call father when he was 6 or 9 something
    we also knew that hong qi gong don't want to make him as leader of bei gang because he can't think what is the best
    no matter bad is someone he only knew their good sight
    example like yang kang
    zhao weizhou xun 4 eva

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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfox2002
    GJ was blinded by his thirst for vengeance against Yuen Ngan Hong Lit so he was more than happy to be GK's puppy (or rather, pit bull) running over most of Northern Asia until his master ordered him to bite his "family."
    You're probably sipping a little too much Gwok Jing Haterade here. Don't forget: as far as Gwok Jing was concerned, the Mongols' war against the Jin Empire was a war of liberation for people that had been oppressed by a foreign power for the better part of a century. Up until that point, the Han people of China had had no conflict with Genghis Khan's Mongols. It was the Juchen Jin Empire that had seized control of northern China and ruled it with an iron first for decades. Now, it turns out that Gwok Jing's character judgment of Genghis Khan was a bit shortsighted and probably misled by the personal kindness that Genghis had shown Gwok Jing during his youth, but that's a world of difference from suggesting that Gwok Jing was some selfish, heartless individual who was bent on revenge against Yeun Nan Hung Lit no matter who might be in the way. If you really believe that, then you've missed the point of the Gwok Jing character completely. Gwok Jing's weaknesses were naivety and ignorance, not malice or selfishness. If you want to criticize him for the former, you've got a good case, but to accuse him of the latter is indefensible.

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfox2002
    YG gets flack for letting his thirst for vengeance almost blind him and betray his country, which he did not because he is innately a hero, but I never hear anything about GJ's even worse transgressions against humanity in the name of vengeance.
    First of all, Gwok Jing's vengeance was directed towards a man who actually masterminded the death of his father. Not only that, Yeun Nan Hung Lit was never a virtuous man: as Prince of the Juchen Jin Empire, he was among the leadership of a regime that had conquered a large segment of Gwok Jing's native country and was oppressing its people. Moreover, to satisfy his lust, Yeun Nan Hung Lit broke up two families, stealing another man's wife and son for his own, and using all kinds of unsavory methods (including lies and violence) to maintain his personal interests. Gwok Jing might have wanted to kill Yeun Nan Hung Lit for personal vengeance, but it was also for the good of those whom Yeun Nan Hung Lit and his followers would threaten.

    Yeung Gor's vengeance was directed towards a man who was *not* responsibile for the death of his father (which his father had brought upon himself), and yet took responsibility for it nonetheless. Said man (Gwok Jing) had been a virtuous, compassionate upholder of justice for his entire life. Yeung Gor knew full well the consequences for Seung Yeung Fortress and China in general if he succeeded in murdering Gwok Jing. It was almost not enough to stop him (and in the end, it was probably Yeung Gor's personal feelings of gratitude towards Gwok Jing rather than concern about innocent people that stayed Yeung Gor's hand and stopped him from murdering Gwok Jing).

    There's quite a difference here, and it doesn't throw Yeung Gor in a particularly flattering light.

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfox2002
    At least GJ gave up his chance to marry WY by begging GK to stop the slaughter of civilians (I forget the name of the country they were fighting, it was Fa Mo Chi Ji or something like that), but the fact remains the civilians were being slaughtered because he was the one who engineered the plan that broke down their city. What did he think was going to happen once the city fell? That's right, he doesn't think.
    Given the same information that Gwok Jing had at the time, would you have known better? Up until the Samarkand incident, Gwok Jing had *never* seen Genghis Khan's darker side. Genghis kept this side well-concealed from his followers (including Gwok Jing) during his rise to power. Yau Chui Gei, an exceptionally wise man (despite his screw ups with Yeung Hong and Yeung Gor) saw through Genghis Khan, but few other people did. Gwok Jing could not have anticipated the slaughter of civilians at Samarkand.

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    Member Yang Ming's Avatar
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    In one word, there were warnings signs for Guo Jing. He just didn't see them until that day.

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yang Ming
    In one word, there were warnings signs for Guo Jing. He just didn't see them until that day.

    A statement without backup makes for little argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    A statement without backup makes for little argument.
    A statement without backup makes for little argument...
    Um, didn't Ken Cheng give enough information?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Up until the Samarkand incident, Gwok Jing had *never* seen Genghis Khan's darker side. Genghis kept this side well-concealed from his followers (including Gwok Jing) during his rise to power. Yau Chui Gei, an exceptionally wise man (despite his screw ups with Yeung Hong and Yeung Gor) saw through Genghis Khan, but few other people did. Gwok Jing could not have anticipated the slaughter of civilians at Samarkand.
    By the way, I didn't have enough time that day.
    I think Genghis Khan had "always" been nice to all his followers. That's the truth.
    It's a fact that when he could take his wife back to him, he loved all the sons who were born by her, even when they were not his sons. He treated them very well and truly cared about them.
    On the other hand, it's the "tradition" of nomadic tribes to kill the enemy men, burn their houses and take their women. Wei Xiao Bao had told Sofia to use this strategy once to stimulate Russian solders' spirit, so that they stood by her side to fight, and more important to get the rich's houses, property and wives.
    If he was beside Genghis Khan, there is no way he couldn't see that truth.

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    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    You're probably sipping a little too much Gwok Jing Haterade here. Don't forget: as far as Gwok Jing was concerned, the Mongols' war against the Jin Empire was a war of liberation for people that had been oppressed by a foreign power for the better part of a century. Up until that point, the Han people of China had had no conflict with Genghis Khan's Mongols. It was the Juchen Jin Empire that had seized control of northern China and ruled it with an iron first for decades.
    But this has nothing to do with the Jin Empire. The Mongols were attacking the Central Asian empire of Kwarazim, and Wanyan Honglie happened to be there. Furthermore, for the Mongols to conquer the Jin Empire automatically means that the Han Chinese will just change masters... How can one talk of liberation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Now, it turns out that Gwok Jing's character judgment of Genghis Khan was a bit shortsighted and probably misled by the personal kindness that Genghis had shown Gwok Jing during his youth, but that's a world of difference from suggesting that Gwok Jing was some selfish, heartless individual who was bent on revenge against Yeun Nan Hung Lit no matter who might be in the way. If you really believe that, then you've missed the point of the Gwok Jing character completely. Gwok Jing's weaknesses were naivety and ignorance, not malice or selfishness. If you want to criticize him for the former, you've got a good case, but to accuse him of the latter is indefensible.
    I'm sorry to say so, Ken, but for someone who haven't actually read the novel, how can you make such a judgement? Guo Jing is a good, decent person YES, but when it comes to vengeance he is UTTERLY OBSESSED AND BLINDED by hatred. That's the way he was brought up, the way he is.

    Anyway, I am currently working on an article explaining this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    First of all, Gwok Jing's vengeance was directed towards a man who actually masterminded the death of his father. Not only that, Yeun Nan Hung Lit was never a virtuous man: as Prince of the Juchen Jin Empire, he was among the leadership of a regime that had conquered a large segment of Gwok Jing's native country and was oppressing its people. Moreover, to satisfy his lust, Yeun Nan Hung Lit broke up two families, stealing another man's wife and son for his own, and using all kinds of unsavory methods (including lies and violence) to maintain his personal interests. Gwok Jing might have wanted to kill Yeun Nan Hung Lit for personal vengeance, but it was also for the good of those whom Yeun Nan Hung Lit and his followers would threaten.
    Completely disagree. Explanation will follow in the near future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Yeung Gor's vengeance was directed towards a man who was *not* responsibile for the death of his father (which his father had brought upon himself), and yet took responsibility for it nonetheless. Said man (Gwok Jing) had been a virtuous, compassionate upholder of justice for his entire life. Yeung Gor knew full well the consequences for Seung Yeung Fortress and China in general if he succeeded in murdering Gwok Jing. It was almost not enough to stop him (and in the end, it was probably Yeung Gor's personal feelings of gratitude towards Gwok Jing rather than concern about innocent people that stayed Yeung Gor's hand and stopped him from murdering Gwok Jing).

    There's quite a difference here, and it doesn't throw Yeung Gor in a particularly flattering light.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Given the same information that Gwok Jing had at the time, would you have known better? Up until the Samarkand incident, Gwok Jing had *never* seen Genghis Khan's darker side. Genghis kept this side well-concealed from his followers (including Gwok Jing) during his rise to power. Yau Chui Gei, an exceptionally wise man (despite his screw ups with Yeung Hong and Yeung Gor) saw through Genghis Khan, but few other people did. Gwok Jing could not have anticipated the slaughter of civilians at Samarkand.
    Guo Jing saw Genghis Khan perform many cruel deeds, this was told in ROCH.
    對 敵 須 狠 , 斬 草 除 根 , 男 女 老 幼 , 不 留 一 人

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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfox2002
    Well, it is GJ we're talking about here, so the moment he realized Genghis Khan was not Mr. Ambitious Man Who Only Kicks The Behinds Of People I Don't Care About Or Hate was when he opened that sealed pouch ordering him to invade Sung.

    GJ was blinded by his thirst for vengeance against Yuen Ngan Hong Lit so he was more than happy to be GK's puppy (or rather, pit bull) running over most of Northern Asia until his master ordered him to bite his "family."

    YG gets flack for letting his thirst for vengeance almost blind him and betray his country, which he did not because he is innately a hero, but I never hear anything about GJ's even worse transgressions against humanity in the name of vengeance. At least GJ gave up his chance to marry WY by begging GK to stop the slaughter of civilians (I forget the name of the country they were fighting, it was Fa Mo Chi Ji or something like that), but the fact remains the civilians were being slaughtered because he was the one who engineered the plan that broke down their city. What did he think was going to happen once the city fell? That's right, he doesn't think.

    Another reason why GJ ranks quite low in my book.
    I totally agree. GJ isn't ranked very high in my book either. It's because he can never think for himself. He's like a computer program. You tell him what to do and has it "saved" in his head all his life.

    YG, I do like because unlike GJ, he can think for himself. You can write programs in his head, but he doesn't have to follow them. He's like Robin Williams in Bicentennial Man. The thing why most people like GJ is cause he's the "ideal hero" to be whereas YG is not. YG is too "human" to be a hero.

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    Lav has touched on most of the pts so I'll try to be brief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    You're probably sipping a little too much Gwok Jing Haterade here. Don't forget: as far as Gwok Jing was concerned, the Mongols' war against the Jin Empire was a war of liberation for people that had been oppressed by a foreign power for the better part of a century. Up until that point, the Han people of China had had no conflict with Genghis Khan's Mongols. It was the Juchen Jin Empire that had seized control of northern China and ruled it with an iron first for decades. Now, it turns out that Gwok Jing's character judgment of Genghis Khan was a bit shortsighted and probably misled by the personal kindness that Genghis had shown Gwok Jing during his youth, but that's a world of difference from suggesting that Gwok Jing was some selfish, heartless individual who was bent on revenge against Yeun Nan Hung Lit no matter who might be in the way. If you really believe that, then you've missed the point of the Gwok Jing character completely. Gwok Jing's weaknesses were naivety and ignorance, not malice or selfishness. If you want to criticize him for the former, you've got a good case, but to accuse him of the latter is indefensible.
    I am not accusing GJ of being "selfish" or "heartless" as you say. If you read what I wrote, I said simply that he let his thirst for vengeance blind him. He, in his own mind, was doing the righteous thing. That, is not being selfish since his intentions in his mind are not.

    Make no mistake, I understand GJ's character very well. I am being fair to GJ, I simply evaluate him from a different perspective.


    First of all, Gwok Jing's vengeance was directed towards a man who actually masterminded the death of his father. Not only that, Yeun Nan Hung Lit was never a virtuous man: as Prince of the Juchen Jin Empire, he was among the leadership of a regime that had conquered a large segment of Gwok Jing's native country and was oppressing its people. Moreover, to satisfy his lust, Yeun Nan Hung Lit broke up two families, stealing another man's wife and son for his own, and using all kinds of unsavory methods (including lies and violence) to maintain his personal interests. Gwok Jing might have wanted to kill Yeun Nan Hung Lit for personal vengeance, but it was also for the good of those whom Yeun Nan Hung Lit and his followers would threaten.


    Yeung Gor's vengeance was directed towards a man who was *not* responsibile for the death of his father (which his father had brought upon himself), and yet took responsibility for it nonetheless. Said man (Gwok Jing) had been a virtuous, compassionate upholder of justice for his entire life. Yeung Gor knew full well the consequences for Seung Yeung Fortress and China in general if he succeeded in murdering Gwok Jing. It was almost not enough to stop him (and in the end, it was probably Yeung Gor's personal feelings of gratitude towards Gwok Jing rather than concern about innocent people that stayed Yeung Gor's hand and stopped him from murdering Gwok Jing).

    There's quite a difference here, and it doesn't throw Yeung Gor in a particularly flattering light.
    You are wrong. To us readers, we know GJ did not kill YH, but to YG, he IS the man responsible for YH's death, and YG chose eventually to let the vendetta go BEFORE he learned the truth about his dad from Orh Jun Ork. It is fully understandable why he suspects GJ and WY murdered his dad given the circumstances and all the little hints and misunderstandings throughout the book. GJ and YG's thirst for vengeance was no different. What is different is that GJ and WY had a relationship with YG thereby creating a moral dilemma while GJ felt no ties to YGHL and didn't mind destroying countries to catch him.

    Secondly, I probably have to pull the passage from the book, but the likely fate of the Sung people sans GJ is the major factor that caused YG to change his mind and risk his life to save GJ.



    Given the same information that Gwok Jing had at the time, would you have known better? Up until the Samarkand incident, Gwok Jing had *never* seen Genghis Khan's darker side. Genghis kept this side well-concealed from his followers (including Gwok Jing) during his rise to power. Yau Chui Gei, an exceptionally wise man (despite his screw ups with Yeung Hong and Yeung Gor) saw through Genghis Khan, but few other people did. Gwok Jing could not have anticipated the slaughter of civilians at Samarkand.
    It does not take a genius to figure out GK's eventual plans. GK had shown his ambition and ruthlessness, but GJ had always been fine with it because GK was one of the "good guys." GJ is not one who questions authority until he is hit square in the head by reality. Even until his final encounter with GK before the latter's death, GJ still very much respected GK.

    GJ is one who views the world in very black and white, not unlike George W. Bush really. Now, I clarify, I am saying that particular aspect of GJ's personality is very much like GWB, I am not saying overall he is like GWB.

    PS, YCG the character in LOCH is NOT a wise man, it's extremely obvious throughout the book. In his older age he was a little better in ROCH although he didn't appear much. YCG the actual historical person WAS PROBABLY wise, but we're talking about the novel character.
    Last edited by flyingfox2002; 11-16-04 at 01:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfox2002

    You are wrong. To us readers, we know GJ did not kill YH, but to YG, he IS the man responsible for YH's death, and YG chose eventually to let the vendetta go. That is more than what GJ did. It is fully understandable why he suspects GJ and WY murdered his dad. GJ and YG's thirst for vengeance was no different. What is different is that GJ and WY had a relationship with YG thereby creating a moral dilemma while GJ felt no ties to YGHL and didn't mind destroying countries to catch him.
    That's not the only reason GJ went after WYHL. Not just for revenge, but to rid Sung of an evil oppressing nation. Now, he didn't realize that he was just replacing the Jin Empire with the Mongols, but it is unfair to say that he only went after WYHL for personal reasons. He wanted to help the Mongols get rid of the Jins because he thought Genghis Khan wanted to help Sung too, and not want to invade it like he did. That was ignorant of him to think so.

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    Thread necromancy ftw!

    For the reader, there were warning signs in the episode where Genghis was trapped by Senggum's, Ong Khan's and Jamuka's forces en route to Huazheng's wedding. Jamuka came to negotiate Dukhsh's release, but ended up discussing the dissolution of his andaship with Temujin.

    Brother, Jamuka said, Youve always acted on your own and never
    listened to the leaders of the other tribes. Dont call me ungrateful or
    traitor. These past days, youve been sending people to convince my
    soldiers to join your army by telling them that, once back home, the
    resources gained in battle belong to the ones that fought for them. They
    wont be distributed amongst all the tribes members. Did you think that
    I didnt know of it?

    If you are aware of it, Temujin thought, then we wont ever live in
    peace with each other. He then took a small bag out of his clothing and
    threw it at the feet of Jamuka. Here are the gifts that you offered me
    when we swore, three times, loyalty to each other. Take them. Later,
    when you cut off my head with your saber, you will only kill an enemy
    and not a sworn brother. I am a hero, you are also a hero. The plains of
    Mongolia are vast, but it cannot contain two heroes.

    While he may have been motivated by a desire to unite the Mongols, in doing so he was prepared to betray his anda, accepting a relationship on his terms only. Later, he told Guo Jing to find and kill Wanyan Honglie.

    Well, Temujin said. Since you go to the south, will you bring back
    the head of the Sixth Jin Prince, Wanyan Honglie, for me? My sworn
    brother Jamuka betrayed me and lost his life, and its the fault of that
    scum. How many men do you need to achieve this mission?

    After unifying the Mongolian tribes, Genghis Khan posed a serious threat
    to the Jin Empire. Confrontation would take place sooner or later, it
    was inevitable. Having met Wanyan Honglie on several occasions, Temujin
    knew his intelligence and his competence, so it was important that he be
    gotten rid of as soon as possible. As for his break with Jamuka, the
    true reasons were elsewhere; he had uprooted traditions, had left the
    spoils of war to his own warriors, and had sought to attract Jamukas
    soldiers to his own army. The truth was, they both broke their oath of
    fidelity and they did not want to recognize their responsibilities and
    preferred to blame it on Wanyan Honglie.

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    I think the difference was that until the Samarkand incident, Ghengis had been fighting other Mongolians and he did not kill innocent people that were of Mongolian descent. However, with Samarkand, he killed innocent people because they were not Mongolian and therefore they did not count in his eyes. "Cutting the grass, pulling out the roots" type thing.. get rid of all the outsiders innocent or not.

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    It was stated in the book that mainly, it was because he was furious that Samarkand had held out for so long and disrupted his plans.
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

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