Zhang Wu Ji / Zhao Min : Jin Yong's guilt?

[wkeej]

Suppose HSDS did not happen towards the end of Mongolian rule but at the beginning where the Han people are oppressed. Will zwj and zm leave the wuxia world? Will zwj see more a need to help fight the Mongolians?

[Trien Chieu]

I hope and hope and hope that ZZR got together with Zhu Yuan Zhang post-HSDS and conspired to kill MM after HSDS. That would be so sweeeeeeeeeeeet. That's why the punk didn't show up when ZYZ was killing off all the Ming people after he became Emperor. And ZZR can be a concubine.

If ZWJ got killed then it's because ZM betrayed him. ZM backstabbed ZWJ so she can be with the son of ZYZ.

[Trien Chieu]

I didn't know Huazheng become nun
can I know which part states that?
Tuo Lei told Guo Jing on their last meetup?

Huazheng did not become a nun in LOCH 1982 but she became a nun in LOCH 1994.

[wkeej]

If ZWJ got killed then it's because ZM betrayed him. ZM backstabbed ZWJ so she can be with the son of ZYZ.

Wow. The scenario can become quite chaotic. Imagine ZZR married ZYZ and became the concubine.
And ZM betrayed ZWJ for whatever reason (e.g. to protect her family) and marry the fourth son of ZYZ = Zhu Di.
If ZZR is not able to murder ZM earlier, she will possibly suffer a similar fate when Zhu Di became emperor.

For zwj, he will possibly be on the run constantly. He is unlikely going to seek protection from the major sects like Wudang, Shaolin so as not to implicate them. ZZR may offer him some protection - like informing him that ZYZ is hot on his heels. Since ZM has betrayed him, zwj is unlikely to get protection from her. Even if zm offers, zwj will on the doubt. zwj can go to Fire Ice Island/Bottomless Valley to hide. Perhaps he will go to Persia to seek protection from XZ.

[Trien Chieu]

Wow. The scenario can become quite chaotic. Imagine ZZR married ZYZ and became the concubine.
And ZM betrayed ZWJ for whatever reason (e.g. to protect her family) and marry the fourth son of ZYZ = Zhu Di.
If ZZR is not able to murder ZM earlier, she will possibly suffer a similar fate when Zhu Di became emperor.

For zwj, he will possibly be on the run constantly. He is unlikely going to seek protection from the major sects like Wudang, Shaolin so as not to implicate them. ZZR may offer him some protection - like informing him that ZYZ is hot on his heels. Since ZM has betrayed him, zwj is unlikely to get protection from her. Even if zm offers, zwj will on the doubt. zwj can go to Fire Ice Island/Bottomless Valley to hide. Perhaps he will go to Persia to seek protection from XZ.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Köke_Temür
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince...f_Ming_dynasty

ZM is the sister of Wang Baobao and she was married to Prince Zhu Shuang (not Zhu Di), the second son of emperor ZYZ. Since ZWJ did not try to rescue the Ming sect when ZYZ massacred them, it's very likely that he is already dead. If ZWJ was still alive, he would definitely try to rescue the Ming sect. Regarding ZZR, I think she stayed in Emei for good. ZYZ is too old for her.

[wkeej]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Köke_Temür
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince...f_Ming_dynasty

ZM is the sister of Wang Baobao and she was married to Prince Zhu Shuang (not Zhu Di), the second son of emperor ZYZ. Since ZWJ did not try to rescue the Ming sect when ZYZ massacred them, it's very likely that he is already dead. If ZWJ was still alive, he would definitely try to rescue the Ming sect. Regarding ZZR, I think she stayed in Emei for good. ZYZ is too old for her.

Thanks for the historical fact. Second son was killed by Zhu Di too?
Remember zwj and zzr are fictitious.

[Trien Chieu]

Thanks for the historical fact. Second son was killed by Zhu Di too?
Remember zwj and zzr are fictitious.

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/朱樉
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince...f_Ming_dynasty

No. Zhu Shuang passed away on year 1395 while Zhu Di took the throne on 1402. However, ZM was buried alive with her dead husband. They were married for political reasons.

[Trien Chieu]

Thanks for the historical fact. Second son was killed by Zhu Di too?
Remember zwj and zzr are fictitious.

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/朱樉
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince...f_Ming_dynasty

No. Zhu Shuang passed away on year 1395 while Zhu Di took the throne on 1402. However, ZM was buried alive with her dead husband. They were married on 1371 for political reasons. They have children too.

[Doc Kwok]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Köke_Temür
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince...f_Ming_dynasty

ZM is the sister of Wang Baobao and she was married to Prince Zhu Shuang (not Zhu Di), the second son of emperor ZYZ. Since ZWJ did not try to rescue the Ming sect when ZYZ massacred them, it's very likely that he is already dead. If ZWJ was still alive, he would definitely try to rescue the Ming sect. Regarding ZZR, I think she stayed in Emei for good. ZYZ is too old for her.

The name of the historical figure you are referring to is given as '王觀音奴' (Wang Guanyinlu), which is not Zhao Min's Mongolian name (敏敏特穆爾 - Minmin Temur). It is probably best to think of them as separate people (who said Wang Baobao only had one sister?).

Although Jinyong novels are based around real history, they deviate considerably from the actual events. It is probably best to think of it as kind of a parallel world - events that happened in the real world might not necessarily have happened in the Jinyong world.

[wkeej]

Somehow, I have begun to dislike zm. First, some background. As what I have told many, I am 50+ person. I did not read the novels.

When I was much younger (<20), I always prefer zzr to zm. For a simple reason that zwj promises to marry her. And being a traditional person, promises need to be kept. On the other hand, and strangely, I cried (only time I ever cried for a wuxia series) when zm was "forced" to jump down the cliff in the 1978 version (of course, the ending then is a cliffhanger as we do not know whether zm died). One possible reason for my sadness is that zwj is left with no one. XZ was never my favorite for I consider her to be a mere servant.

Joining this forum, I have quite a fair bit of correspondence/exchange with green destiny (the oldies will know this person), I have begun to see zzr and zm in different lights. And hence my attitude towards zm becomes much better. I have also treated xz in better light as she is possibly the only girl with the least harm to zwj. Moreover, I am possibly influenced by JY who noted that xz is his favorite. So my favorite has moved from zzr to a tie between zm and xz.

Recently, in refreshing my memory of hsds, there have been a number of exchange of information in the coming hsds thread, especially with a_t. I have also ventured into watching 2009 series every now and then. Consequently, there has been some dislike for zm: (1) possibly out of jealousy, she deliberately applied "poison" on zwj's bite telling him that it is medicine; (2) possibly not wanting to anger the old couple, she lied that she is a "pure" Chinese and (3) possibly out of her own self-interest, she left her own country to be with zwj who is from the "enemy" country. I am not sure whether for (3), we can regard her as a traitor.

In short, my favorite has moved from zzr to xz/zm and now xz. Anyone has the same thoughts as me, especially to zm?

[Ken Cheng]

For a simple reason that zwj promises to marry her. And being a traditional person, promises need to be kept.

I don't know of any tradition in the world that encourages people to keep promises that are secured by deceit and manipulation. If a person who has malicious intentions uses deceit and manipulation to trick you into promising something unreasonable, do you continue to honor it simply because you promised? I don't think that's "traditional" or particularly ethical; I think it's foolish.

[wkeej]

I don't know of any tradition in the world that encourages people to keep promises that are secured by deceit and manipulation. If a person who has malicious intentions uses deceit and manipulation to trick you into promising something unreasonable, do you continue to honor it simply because you promised? I don't think that's "traditional" or particularly ethical; I think it's foolish.

Your point accepted, Ken. Will like to hear from you - How's about your attitude towards ZM over the years? Is it somewhat similar, better or worse?

[Ken Cheng]

Your point accepted, Ken. Will like to hear from you - How's about your attitude towards ZM over the years? Is it somewhat similar, better or worse?

I'm indifferent towards Chiu Mun. Don't particularly like her, but don't particularly dislike her either.