Zhang Wu Ji / Zhao Min : Jin Yong's guilt?

[steffy]

Jin Yong wrote for Zhang Wu Ji to pick Zhao Min in the end of HSDS as the woman he want to spent the rest of his life with. Is this a reflection of guilt to compensate for the hero of LOCH, Guo Jing who renagade on his promise to marry Hua Zheng, another Mongolian Princess in order to be with Huang Rong?

Perhaps Jin Yong felt bad for Hua Zheng in LOCH and thus arranged for Zhao Min to win the battle of hearts this time in HSDS, the 3rd installment which begins with LOCH.

What do you think?

[Ken Cheng]

If you look at the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY as a kind of grand opera, you might find that HEAVEN SWORD & DRAGON SABRE is, in many ways, LEGEND OF THE CONDOR HEROES in reverse. Not only does HSDS have the Chinese hero choosing the Mongolian (well, actually Uighur) girl over the Chinese girl in a complete reversal of Gwok Jing's decision in LOCH, but consider this:

1. The first major martial art introduced in LOCH was the 9 Yum White Bone Claws. This martial art played a fairly significant role in the early part of LOCH, but faded from view towards the end of that story...was scarcely mentioned at all in ROCH and the first part of HSDS, and suddenly makes an unexpected return to the story at the end of HSDS.

2. LOCH covered the beginning of the Mongol Empire in China; HSDS covered its decline and downfall.

3. Gwok Jing became a great martial artist by mastering the 9 Yum Jen Ging; Cheung Mo Gei became a great martial artist by mastering the 9 Yeung Jen Ging.

At the end of HSDS, therefore, we seem to have come full circle...and many of the circumstances previously seen in LOCH return in inverted form.

[Suet Seung]

That a interesting speculation, I never thought of that.

But I always thought since Zhang Wu Ji's parents comes from different grounds like Good sect and famous "evil" Ming Sect (or well branches from Ming Sect) in which the Ming sect was looked down on and despised by the good sects. Then for Zhang Wu Ji's generation...he chooses a Mongolian royalty as Zhao Min...where during that time Mongolians were hated too...I guess what I'm saying JY likes to show diversity in almost all his novels...the good and bad are paired together...

[strawberry]

I did not feel this way at all..but an interesting pt u pointed out. it could be something but not so for me.

I really do not know why Zhao min was picked.

ok..I am going to turn this into a who loves ZWJ the most thingy. I felt that Zhou Zhiruo was the most in love with Zhang Wu Ji. We can see from these parts, when she felt so pained that she had to stab him in front of so many martial arts expert at Guang Ming ding, at miejue shi tai's instructions. when she saved Zhao Min and took the arrow for her towards the end. I felt that the main highlight of this novel was in fact Zhou Zhi ruo's deep love for ZWJ. I am not sure why Zhao min was picked but it sure made Zhou Zhi Ruo's love for ZWJ even more ke ku ming xin.

I felt that Zhou Zhi Ruo's turning evil was a result of being angry with ZWJ. The opposite of love is actually not hate but no emotions. when you hate someone, it means you still love him that much.

[steffy]

If you look at the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY as a kind of grand opera, you might find that HEAVEN SWORD & DRAGON SABRE is, in many ways, LEGEND OF THE CONDOR HEROES in reverse. Not only does HSDS have the Chinese hero choosing the Mongolian (well, actually Uighur) girl over the Chinese girl in a complete reversal of Gwok Jing's decision in LOCH, but consider this:

1. The first major martial art introduced in LOCH was the 9 Yum White Bone Claws. This martial art played a fairly significant role in the early part of LOCH, but faded from view towards the end of that story...was scarcely mentioned at all in ROCH and the first part of HSDS, and suddenly makes an unexpected return to the story at the end of HSDS.

2. LOCH covered the beginning of the Mongol Empire in China; HSDS covered its decline and downfall.

3. Gwok Jing became a great martial artist by mastering the 9 Yum Jen Ging; Cheung Mo Gei became a great martial artist by mastering the 9 Yeung Jen Ging.

At the end of HSDS, therefore, we seem to have come full circle...and many of the circumstances previously seen in LOCH return in inverted form.

Ken,

You are right, everything had came a full circle. I have never thought of it that way but I see what you mean. Jin Yong arranged for everything to have a balance.

Another way to see it may be "Karma". I am buddhist and sometimes believe in the word "what goes around comes around". Guo Jing went back on his words to marry Hua Zheng, broke her heart, etc.

The "repayment / karma" therefore falls on Guo Jing / Huang Rong's children. For example, Guo Xiang had the same unreturned love for Yang Guo which Hua Zheng had for Guo Jing. Guo Xiang loved Yang Guo whole heartedly, Yang Guo only had XLN in his heart, the exact same way that Hua Zheng loved Guo Jing, who loves only Huang Rong. Hua Zheng became a nun in the end, Guo Xiang also became a nun in the end. A repayment for her father's sin?

[strawberry]

All ur comments are interesting and new to me! so cool to have new angles to understand the novel at a deeper level

[c13:4567]

errmm...zwj did not pick zm over zzr at the very end, to the best of my knowledge. i was sure he was going to though until i read the last paragraph and jin yong's written thoughts after the conclusion.

i don't know if the issue of ethnicity is of primary concern but the writer seems to have a fondness for picking unorthodox female characters over those from orthodox background.

[Dennis Chen]

To me, Zhou Zhiruo was obsessed with Zhang Wuji. Xiao Zhao was grateful. Yin Li was enamoured (puppy love). Zhao Min was the one that really loved him.

[flyingfox2002]

I disagree with the premise that ZZR loved ZWJ the most. She MAY have loved him, I can't say for sure one way or another. I am skeptical as I believe that ZZR is one of the scariest women (not necessarily the evilest) in the JY Universe but that's another story, and I think she could have just been using ZWJ.

Anyhoo, it's evident in the book that ZZR's desire to marry ZWJ was more than pure love, she was intent on being the Queen of the new dynasty. When Marshmellow Man (MM from now) expressed the desire to retire into reclusion after overthrowing the Mongols, ZZR was disappointed and disapproved.

Maybe MM picking ZM was JY's intention to reverse GJ dumping HZ in LOCH, but in terms of the story of HSDS, ZM's ethnicity was not a helping factor in MM choosing her.

And really, who knows, he sorta chose her, but he kinda wanted to have all 4. And if ZZR didn't freak out and go all evil, who knows if he wouldn't have chosen her instead. After all, he nearly married her even though he wasn't all that down with it.

I hope and hope and hope that ZZR got together with Zhu Yuan Zhang post-HSDS and conspired to kill MM after HSDS. That would be so sweeeeeeeeeeeet. That's why the punk didn't show up when ZYZ was killing off all the Ming people after he became Emperor. And ZZR can be a concubine.

[Tazzy1972]

nah ZZR would not wanna be a concubine... she wants to the only one and not one in many

[rabadi]

Years ago one of my friends told me that he heard a rumour (which means he did not have necessary source or fact to back it up) that ZWJ - ZM relationship in HSDS was actually based on a true story about a Mongolian princess (?) who fell in love with a Han commoner. He (my friend) did not mention the name of the princess nor the name of the commoner. I don't know whether this is the true case or not.

[JigSta]

HSDS and XAJH also have parallels. Both have 'good' sects that were not entirely good, and 'evil' sects that were not entirely 'evil'. Both story promoted the view 'You can't judge a book by it's cover' and both heroes eneded up with the 'evil' girls. A mongolian princess and a Holy maiden of the demon cult.

[wkeej]

in a posting by I think sunnysnow (sorry i can't find it now, possibly deleted), it was noted that the author, jy, himself does not know who zwj loves deep in his heart. it is because hsds is supposed to be a story about brotherhood - among the wudang disciples, between xx and zwj, etc. the love stories is supplementary, but readers/viewers took it first place.

henceforth, even if we pose the question to jy, possibly his reply will be "i really don't know"

while zwj is now with zm at the island of ice and fire, my belief is that the person he missed most will be xiaozhao. if missing someone = loving the person most deep in the heart, then xiaozhao should be zwj's true love.

[kidd]

when she saved Zhao Min and took the arrow for her towards the end. I felt that the main highlight of this novel was in fact Zhou Zhi ruo's deep love for ZWJ.

I thought this was TVB creation. I've asked someone (I think her nick is green_destiny) who has read the book (first edition) before, and she said ZZR never took any arrow for ZM or saved her in anyway. Throughout the novel ZZR just try to harm ZM again and again. But then, the version she read is the 1st edition, so, JY might have changed the plot in the 2nd edition. Anyone want to clarify?

[Candide]

when she saved Zhao Min and took the arrow for her towards the end. I felt that the main highlight of this novel was in fact Zhou Zhi ruo's deep love for ZWJ.

In the novel, if ZZR saw an arrow on ZM, she would immediately grab it and push it in further... Edit: this is the same in both 1st and 2nd editions.

[flyingfox2002]

nah ZZR would not wanna be a concubine... she wants to the only one and not one in many

Ya know, many Emperors have been ruined and manipulated by a concubine that he likes shagging. You don't have to be the Queen to have power.

[Zhuge Liang]

I think there is no doubt that both ZZR & ZM loved ZWJ deeply. The difference is ZM was willing to give up everything for just ZWJ. ZZR wanted ZWJ's love as well as a whole list of other things and thus got herself into a bigger mess than she could handle, eventually ending up with very little. While both did not easily give up on his affections when the other had the upper hand, ZZR seemingly was willing to go some nasty lengths (of course ZM was no angel herself) and when that failed she was probably prepared to destroy what she wanted / loved if she couldn't have it for herself.

The determining factor was ZWJ. Since both loved him, the ball was in his court and he chose ZM in the end and was similarly prepared to give up everything for her as well.

XZ was also willing to give up everything just to be his servant.

I think JY likes to make the main characters life hell by making him love the one that everyone is against,
HR - the daughter of HYS
XLN - the taboo relationship of master and pupil
ZM - the girl from the other side.

And only after they go through hell does he let finally be together, thus leaving the reader with no doubt that they really are in love and deserve each other. Superior martial arts techniques might be thrust upon them but being with their love will not come easy. I also notice that with each installment of the trilogy, the "tabooness" of the girl got worse.

[Trien Chieu]

Zhao Min was the one that really loved him.

Zhao Min and ZWJ broke up after HSDS. ZM ended up with Zhu Shuang, the son of Zhu Yuan Zhang. I guess she was like YK who can't live without all the luxuries that ZWJ is unable to provide.

[laurenhuang]

Ken,

You are right, everything had came a full circle. I have never thought of it that way but I see what you mean. Jin Yong arranged for everything to have a balance.

Another way to see it may be "Karma". I am buddhist and sometimes believe in the word "what goes around comes around". Guo Jing went back on his words to marry Hua Zheng, broke her heart, etc.

The "repayment / karma" therefore falls on Guo Jing / Huang Rong's children. For example, Guo Xiang had the same unreturned love for Yang Guo which Hua Zheng had for Guo Jing. Guo Xiang loved Yang Guo whole heartedly, Yang Guo only had XLN in his heart, the exact same way that Hua Zheng loved Guo Jing, who loves only Huang Rong. Hua Zheng became a nun in the end, Guo Xiang also became a nun in the end. A repayment for her father's sin?

I didn't know Huazheng become nun
can I know which part states that?
Tuo Lei told Guo Jing on their last meetup?

[PJ]

To ponder the original question. Yes, it could be in small part to compensate for Hua Zheng. But really, Zhao Min is a Mongolian Huang Rong; both are smarter than their man and are a great choice for him. Therefore, I think it was more about simply picking the best companion in both cases.