The other Greats run the ROCH Mongol gauntlet

[ChronoReverse]

I must make a minor correction to my posts.

GJ fought a battle that had the Khan retreat his forces 40 miles while he tried to figure out what to do about GJ.

That very same day is when YG went to GJ at Xiang Yang and during that night is when he almost killed GJ (but GJ thought he was fire deviating) and caused GJ to expend a great deal of energy.

The next day, GJ had another encounter with the mongols (he ended up left outside the gates among hundred of mongol soldiers, climbed the wall to get back into the city; this time YG saved him). Incidently, Jin Yong explicitly stated that GJ would've had no trouble at all leaping up the city wall even with GLFW's interference had he not expended a great deal of energy helping YG's "fire deviation the night before".

The day after is the fight with the mongol heroes.


So GJ had one day of "rest" after expending his energy for YG and only one night of real rest before going out to fight the mongol heroes early the next day.

[Ken Cheng]

I must make a minor correction to my posts.

GJ fought a battle that had the Khan retreat his forces 40 miles while he tried to figure out what to do about GJ.

That very same day is when YG went to GJ at Xiang Yang and during that night is when he almost killed GJ (but GJ thought he was fire deviating) and caused GJ to expend a great deal of energy.

The next day, GJ had another encounter with the mongols (he ended up left outside the gates among hundred of mongol soldiers, climbed the wall to get back into the city; this time YG saved him). Incidently, Jin Yong explicitly stated that GJ would've had no trouble at all leaping up the city wall even with GLFW's interference had he not expended a great deal of energy helping YG's "fire deviation the night before".

The day after is the fight with the mongol heroes.


So GJ had one day of "rest" after expending his energy for YG and only one night of real rest before going out to fight the mongol heroes early the next day.

It all makes you wonder how it would have played out if Gwok Jing had been at 100% during the battle and not distracted by Yeung Gor's activities. He might have been able to dismantle the weaker Mongol warriors completely and put some serious hurt on the Golden Wheel Monk.

[flyingfox2002]

If YG hadn't tricked GJ into coming back for him, GJ would've gotten clean away. Not only that, if YG wasn't there, then YG wouldn't have saved Ma Guang Zuo meaning that GJ would've taken out two of the mongols and escaped from the last three.

On the other hand, if YG wasn't there and Fung Muk Fung wasn't there, GJ would have died there too. YG was a wild card. He was first there to hurt, and then to help GJ.

GJ and GWM were even, then GWM had 3 lackeys helping him (one was taken out of action early), not counting Ma Dai Jor. If the Mongol lackeys weren't trying to claim the title of the Greatest Mongol Warrior for himself, then GJ and YG would have both died, but the Mongol lackeys canceled out each other.

The bottom line is, it didn't matter who was fighting the Mongols or the style of battle, it was the variables that GJ had no control over (or any other of the Five Elites that you could place in GJ's predicament) that determined the outcome.
------

Funny thing is, if YG didn't suck out the Mo brothers' silver needle poison, he would have died from the flower poison cuz he wasn't going to kill GJ and WY for the antidote anymore.

[ChronoReverse]

Wrong. GJ would still have taken out the guy with the whip regardless of whether YG was there or not since at that point, GJ was fighting all four already. The fifth mongol would only hurt himself simply by attacking GJ so he isn't even a factor.


Against the three, GJ held his own and was never planning to try to defeat them. GJ managed to break free on his own from these guys and summoned his horse. He was about to get away (since Jin Yong stated that if GJ got to his horse, the soldiers and the mongol heroes would be able to do nothing to stop him), when YG pretended to have an internal energy to make sure GJ doesn't get away.


Stop letting your prejudice cloud your judgement and read over the section again. Before YG fakes his injury, he contributed nothing, the mongol heroes weren't fighting each other yet, and GJ did put the mongol heroes off-balanced enough for him to reach his horse.

[Ken Cheng]

Funny thing is, if YG didn't suck out the Mo brothers' silver needle poison, he would have died from the flower poison cuz he wasn't going to kill GJ and WY for the antidote anymore.

Not to get off-topic, but to me, this was one of Yeung Gor's finest moments. Yeung Gor knew that he was dying, and the time left he had with his beloved Little Dragon Girl was measurable in days. Even so, he chose to give up what little time he had left to save the lives of the Mo Brothers...two people who hadn't exactly been kind to him. Although I've never been much of a Yeung Gor fan, this (along with his decision to spare Gwok Fu her arm) was one of his most heroic, most admirable moments when his heroism truly came through.

And as it turned out, his benevolence had unintended good consequences for him.

[flyingfox2002]

Wrong. GJ would still have taken out the guy with the whip regardless of whether YG was there or not since at that point, GJ was fighting all four already. The fifth mongol would only hurt himself simply by attacking GJ so he isn't even a factor.


Against the three, GJ held his own and was never planning to try to defeat them. GJ managed to break free on his own from these guys and summoned his horse. He was about to get away (since Jin Yong stated that if GJ got to his horse, the soldiers and the mongol heroes would be able to do nothing to stop him), when YG pretended to have an internal energy to make sure GJ doesn't get away.


Stop letting your prejudice cloud your judgement and read over the section again. Before YG fakes his injury, he contributed nothing, the mongol heroes weren't fighting each other yet, and GJ did put the mongol heroes off-balanced enough for him to reach his horse.

Are you talking to me? I had just reread that part of the novel over my lunch break, before I posted, so I don't need to read over the section.

GJ did not reach his horse. He COULD have reached his horse. He would have come back for YG on the red horse anyway.

Not to get off-topic, but to me, this was one of Yeung Gor's finest moments. Yeung Gor knew that he was dying, and the time left he had with his beloved Little Dragon Girl was measurable in days. Even so, he chose to give up what little time he had left to save the lives of the Mo Brothers...two people who hadn't exactly been kind to him. Although I've never been much of a Yeung Gor fan, this (along with his decision to spare Gwok Fu her arm) was one of his most heroic, most admirable moments when his heroism truly came through.

And as it turned out, his benevolence had unintended good consequences for him.

Throughout the book, YG from the time he was a kid has always shown the quality to defend the weak without regard for his own life. He just had some demons to conquer, namely the mystery of his father's death. Makes one wonder if his mom and/or GJ and WY had just come out and told the kid the truth, what would have happened. WY's suspicion of YG ended up fueling YG's own suspicion of her and GJ. Considering YG"s childhood and the events of his early years, it's hard to blame YG for thinking that GJ and WY were responsible for his father dying and abandoning him.

I mean even after what GF did to him and SLL, he still saved her several times because he's truly a hero at heart. I myself would probably not be able to have done it.

[ChronoReverse]

Are you talking to me? I had just reread that part of the novel over my lunch break, before I posted, so I don't need to read over the section.

GJ did not reach his horse. He COULD have reached his horse. He would have come back for YG on the red horse anyway.

Precisely. My point is that GJ would have gotten away just fine if YG wasn't there to interfere.

[Ken Cheng]

Throughout the book, YG from the time he was a kid has always shown the quality to defend the weak without regard for his own life. He just had some demons to conquer, namely the mystery of his father's death. Makes one wonder if his mom and/or GJ and WY had just come out and told the kid the truth, what would have happened. WY's suspicion of YG ended up fueling YG's own suspicion of her and GJ. Considering YG"s childhood and the events of his early years, it's hard to blame YG for thinking that GJ and WY were responsible for his father dying and abandoning him.

This is where the surviving LOCH characters showed an uncharacteristic lack of vision and fortitude, and it quite nearly ended up costing lives. Sooner or later, Yeung Gor needed to face the truth of what his father Yeung Hong had done, but Muk Lim Chi, Gwok Jing, Wong Yung, Yau Chui Gei, Hung 7 Gung, Wong Yerk See...none of them could bring themselves to tell him the truth. Sure, the information would have been hard for young Yeung Gor to take, but it would have been better to let him know the truth as a child (when he could be easily restrained from hurting himself and others) rather than let him find out for himself as an adult. That nearly turned into a disaster.

[flyingfox2002]

Precisely. My point is that GJ would have gotten away just fine if YG wasn't there to interfere.

It's pretty clear YG both hurt and helped GJ in the confrontation. Had GJ gotten the red horse, he would have come back to save YG, and YG would have still tried to sabotage his escape, and who knows, on horseback YG would have been without Siu Seung Ji's interference and would have killed GJ from the back. If YG does not get moved by GJ selflessly saving him, he (YG) might not in turn be selflessly saving GJ at the end.

Can't really overthink the "ifs" and "buts." Things happened as they happened. If the Mo bozos hadn't tried to sneak into the Mongol camp, GJ + YG wouldn't have been there. If YG hadn't saved GJ the day before, GJ would be dead. Etc. etc.

The forgotten hero is Fung Muk Fung though. He didn't even know who GJ was.

[Ken Cheng]

The forgotten hero is Fung Muk Fung though. He didn't even know who GJ was.

Didn't he? I thought that Fung Mak Fung had ensconced himself as a spy within the Mongol army, and he knew full well that Gwok Jing was a crucial leader for the Seung Yeung resistance fighters. That's why Fung Mak Fung went all out to make sure that Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor could get away safely...even at the cost of his own life.

[ChronoReverse]

It's pretty clear YG both hurt and helped GJ in the confrontation. Had GJ gotten the red horse, he would have come back to save YG, and YG would have still tried to sabotage his escape, and who knows, on horseback YG would have been without Siu Seung Ji's interference and would have killed GJ from the back. If YG does not get moved by GJ selflessly saving him, he (YG) might not in turn be selflessly saving GJ at the end.

Can't really overthink the "ifs" and "buts." Things happened as they happened. If the Mo bozos hadn't tried to sneak into the Mongol camp, GJ + YG wouldn't have been there. If YG hadn't saved GJ the day before, GJ would be dead. Etc. etc.

The forgotten hero is Fung Muk Fung though. He didn't even know who GJ was.

What on earth are you talking about? Why are you obfuscating the issue? GJ took on four of the five Mongol heroes. This is undisputed.

The fifth could've contributed nothing and would've gotten himself killed simply by attacking. This is directly stated.

GJ took out one of the mongol heros. Statement of fact.

GJ put all three remaining hero off-balanced enough for him to get cleanly away and was just about to reach his horse. Also cannot be disputed.

GJ, upon reaching his horse would've gotten away. Stated directly by Jin Yong.


So why are you bringing YG into this at all? I said that GJ would get away if YG wasn't around and I think it's quite clear he would.




Furthermore, if you do want to argue, GJ wouldn't even have gotten hurt at that point in the battle if GJ hadn't gone and "saved" YG and opened himself up (when YG was trying to stab GJ and one of the mongols attacked him to stop him).

Didn't he? I thought that Fung Mak Fung had ensconced himself as a spy within the Mongol army, and he knew full well that Gwok Jing was a crucial leader for the Seung Yeung resistance fighters. That's why Fung Mak Fung went all out to make sure that Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor could get away safely...even at the cost of his own life.

He didn't know who GJ was (i.e., son of law of his master) but he did know that GJ was a leader that's defending XY and was worth giving up his own life for. He decided this when he noticed GJ while he was hiding in the mongol army.

Sooner or later, Yeung Gor needed to face the truth of what his father Yeung Hong had done, but Muk Lim Chi, Gwok Jing, Wong Yung, Yau Chui Gei, Hung 7 Gung, Wong Yerk See...none of them could bring themselves to tell him the truth. Sure, the information would have been hard for young Yeung Gor to take, but it would have been better to let him know the truth as a child (when he could be easily restrained from hurting himself and others) rather than let him find out for himself as an adult.

Very true. But you must note that GJ explicitly promised to tell YG everything directly to him after the mongol threat was over.

[Ken Cheng]

Very true. But you must note that GJ explicitly promised to tell YG everything directly to him after the mongol threat was over.

This is where I think Gwok Jing was procrastinating on what was a very difficult, but very necessary task. "After the Mongol threat was over" is a pretty open-ended deadline for sharing information that Yeung Gor had always been entitled to know. As it turned out, the Mongol threat didn't end until both Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor were long in their graves. Had (Gong Nam Freak # 1) Ohr Jen Ngok not finally spilled the beans some thirty-six years after the fact, Yeung Gor would have gone to his grave not knowing what his father had done.

[ChronoReverse]

Yeah, that's true. In my rose-colored lenses, I interpreted GJ to mean the immediate mongol threat (since they were RIGHT there just outside at that point).

The mongol weren't continuously assaulting XY so I assumed that GJ meant when the mongol eased up for the moment.


Of course, this was an assumption on my part.

[Charlieboy]

I think the really silly part was, how long will it take for GJ to impart the information to YG? GJ might be bad with words, but still, its not going to require a whole vacation from the ongoing war to tell YG that his father was a bad egg.

[ChronoReverse]

I personally felt (through my rose-coloured lenses) that because the mongols were still just outside, GJ didn't want YG's spirit to be dampened by the shocking news of his father's character.

GJ didn't know about YG's inner thoughts (even though HR warned him, GJ's really too trusting).

In any case, this is yet another case of where telling the truth earlier would've solve a lot of problems.

[flyingfox2002]

What on earth are you talking about? Why are you obfuscating the issue? GJ took on four of the five Mongol heroes. This is undisputed.

The fifth could've contributed nothing and would've gotten himself killed simply by attacking. This is directly stated.

GJ took out one of the mongol heros. Statement of fact.

GJ put all three remaining hero off-balanced enough for him to get cleanly away and was just about to reach his horse. Also cannot be disputed.

GJ, upon reaching his horse would've gotten away. Stated directly by Jin Yong.


So why are you bringing YG into this at all? I said that GJ would get away if YG wasn't around and I think it's quite clear he would.

I am talking about the entire ordeal from entrance to the exit of the Mongol camp, afterall, that's what I take the "Mongol gaunlet" to mean. If we only talk about GJ vs. GWM and 3 lackeys up until the point of GJ breaking out, then yes, YG only hurt GJ's chances. It's true that GJ probably would have reached the red horse had YG not feigned injury, but GJ would not have left just like that because as I said, he was surely coming back for YG. It's also true that without YG fighting with reckless abandon at the end and then later FMF coming to the rescue, GJ would not have gotten away.

And like I said, once on horseback, YG would have killed GJ from the back, and there would be no one to stop him then. It was only when GJ selflessly helped YG and sustained the injury that YG reached a sudden turn of attitude and fought selflessly to save GJ.

Furthermore, if you do want to argue, GJ wouldn't even have gotten hurt at that point in the battle if GJ hadn't gone and "saved" YG and opened himself up (when YG was trying to stab GJ and one of the mongols attacked him to stop him).

See above.

Didn't he? I thought that Fung Mak Fung had ensconced himself as a spy within the Mongol army, and he knew full well that Gwok Jing was a crucial leader for the Seung Yeung resistance fighters. That's why Fung Mak Fung went all out to make sure that Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor could get away safely...even at the cost of his own life.

I meant he didn't know GJ was his master's son in law or know GJ's name. He did know GJ was the leader of the defense.

[ChronoReverse]

Um, if that's really what you meant, then this is a pointless argument. If any fighter trusted YG and would go back for YG, then when YG stabs them in the back, a similar result would occur.



Obviously this isn't intended in the context of the original topic.



Again you're bringing YG into the mix when it doesn't have anything to do with the Mongol gauntlet.

[flyingfox2002]

The gauntlet is more than just the Mongol kung fu fighters. The entire gauntlet is the Mongolian camp. If you talked about just the Mongol kung fu fighters, by virtual of initially breaking out, GJ had already won and there's no reason to discuss anymore. He actually won by luck. Siu did not know that GJ was impervious to poison, and his poison powder ended up hurting GWM who had to jump back leaving GJ temporarily dealing with two inferior guys. This is how GJ escaped.

If you were to include the subsequent battle, injury and escape, you cannot exclude YG from it.

[ChronoReverse]

GJ may be lucky that he's immune to poison, but that's an attribute of him. OYF probably wouldn't have had any problems at all with the poison either, would you call it lucky that he's a master of poisons? Maybe, but it's still his attribute.


In any case, the original scenario presented by Ken Cheung does not include the interference of YG. It merely asked, "If other Greats had to fight the mongol heroes and the mongol army, how would they fare?"


Furthermore, I still don't understand why you keep bringing YG back into this since I said "IF YG wasn't there, then GJ would've gotten away easily."

I said this because the other Greats were being considered in a situation without YG as well.

[flyingfox2002]

GJ may be lucky that he's immune to poison, but that's an attribute of him. OYF probably wouldn't have had any problems at all with the poison either, would you call it lucky that he's a master of poisons? Maybe, but it's still his attribute.

I am already saying he WON. What else do you want me to say? LOL
On paper, GJ is not equivalent to GWM + lackeys but real fights are not won on paper. There were variables surrounding the fight, both for and against GJ. Siu's not knowing GJ would be immune, thereby releasing poison and consequently sabotaging his own team is one example of a BIG variable that GJ had no control over. This is how he escaped. He was fighting GWM + Siu Seung Ji and Nei Mo Sing to a draw until then.

In any case, the original scenario presented by Ken Cheung does not include the interference of YG. It merely asked, "If other Greats had to fight the mongol heroes and the mongol army, how would they fare?"

Then why do YOU bring YG into this.

I've already given my opinion on Ken's original question (btw it's CHENG). I only talked about YG because YOU (or whoever) brought it up.

Furthermore, I still don't understand why you keep bringing YG back into this since I said "IF YG wasn't there, then GJ would've gotten away easily."

Once again, I AM TALKING ABOUT THE ENTIRETY OF THE EVENTS AT THE MONGOL CAMP. I have ALREADY SAID, if you counted the fight up only until YG feigned injury, THEN GJ HAD ALREADY WON. YG was a factor for the remainder of the ordeal, first against and then for GJ.

I said this because the other Greats were being considered in a situation without YG as well.

Like I said, I have already addressed this hypothetical scenario with the Elites. I have been talking about what actually happened at the Mongol camp.