[Eliar Swiftfire]

Yeah. Next Jordan indeed.

And Pippen has retired. Farewell, Pip.

[Eliar Swiftfire]

Underappreciated

Marty Burns, SI.com






He had a body straight out of an NBA laboratory and a face like a Peruvian sun god. He was a versatile Swiss Army Knife who could shoot, pass and run the floor. He was a defensive ace, a long-armed octopus who was voted first-team all-defense eight straight times. He won six NBA titles and two Olympic gold medals.

So why do so many NBA fans heap scorn on Scottie Pippen?

Ask hoop heads outside Chicago what they think of Pippen, who retired Tuesday, and you're liable to hear as much about 1.8 seconds and migraine headaches as you are shutting down Magic Johnson and playing through back pain that would have crippled most of today's NBA divas. Want to start an argument in a Boston bar? Just declare loudly that Pippen is one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA history. Might as well say the Minutemen were a bunch of tea-drinking prissies.

But here's the thing about Pippen. He was a superb all-around talent. He didn't mind being in the shadow of Michael Jordan. And he played hard nearly all of the time.



Many NBA fans will remember Pippen's highlight reel dunks (his straddle over a prone Patrick Ewing is an all-time classic) or his defensive wizardry (hounding Magic in the '91 Finals), but countless less-heralded moments showed his competitive nature in even starker terms. For example, in Game 3 of a first-round playoff series against the Bullets during the '97 season, Pippen disregarded a painful back injury and drove in hard for a game-winning dunk that left him lying in agony on his back. Already up 2-0 in the best-of-five series, with Game 5 at home if necessary, Pippen easily could have tried a jump shot in that situation. But like Jordan, he had a warrior's mentality.

Is Pippen one of the Game's 50 Greatest? No doubt -- at least for a few more years. (After all, the next 50 Greatest list will have to make room for a new batch of faces.) And it's hard to argue with six rings and the distinction of being perhaps the best defensive small forward ever to play the game.

Did he benefit from playing alongside Jordan? Of course. But the Lone Ranger wouldn't have rounded up all those bad guys without Tonto, either. It was Pippen's defensive lockdown on Magic in the '91 Finals that enabled MJ to focus his energy on offense. It was also Pippen's willingness to play through another case of severe back pain in Utah that set up MJ's photo finish in the '98 Finals.

Pippen came up big for the Bulls more times than many of his critics will admit, and in their last two title runs he was arguably Chicago's best overall player. And make no mistake; Pippen was an MVP-caliber talent in his own right. For evidence, look no further than the '93-94 season. That was the year Jordan retired the first time. Most experts predicted a Bulls collapse. Pippen instead led Chicago to an incredible 55 wins and got them to within a whisker of another Finals trip. He averaged 22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds and 5.6 assists while shooting a robust 49.1 percent. He also took home All-Star MVP honors.

Unfortunately, he made a silly mistake that season that permanently marred his reputation. In a fit of pique over not having the final play called for him, he refused to take the floor for the final 1.8 seconds of a playoff game against the Knicks. Toni Kukoc wound up making a buzzer-beating three-pointer to give Chicago a 104-102 victory.

Pippen's critics love to offer the 1.8 fiasco as proof that he was overrated. Or they point to his lack of success in his later years with Houston and Portland, when he could no longer ride MJ's vapor trails. Clearly, Pippen wasn't the savviest guy in the world (he also had minor brushes with the law over guns and women), and he couldn't perform the same way at age 34 he did at 27 (not with all that playoff mileage on his legs). But in his heyday he was a spectacular player.

Yet Pippen is one of the league's least-loved players. My guess is that it has more to do with Jordan. His Airness was so great and so likeable that even opposing fans had to respect him. So they took out their anger on his sidekick, which is unfortunate.

Despite his foibles, Pippen was known throughout his career as an exceptional teammate. How many times could he be seen directing traffic on the floor, talking on defense, giving advice to younger players? Bulls GM John Paxson said Monday that Pippen was one of the best teammates he ever had. In a me-first culture, Pippen was that rare superstar talent who was willing to play second fiddle and sacrifice individual glory for the sake of his team. It's a lesson many of today's NBA stars could stand to learn. It's also why Pippen deserves to be respected -- if not loved -- in the bars of Boston, L.A. and all the other NBA cities where smart fans appreciate the game.

[spooks]

Today's Insider on Position battles in the NBA. Decent article.

==============================

Thursday, October 7, 2004

By Chad Ford
NBA Insider

The local and national media is making a big deal about a supposed position battle looming between Kenyon Martin and Nene in Denver. Upon hearing the Nuggets had traded for Martin in the offseason, Nene dropped his summer plans and reported to Denver to begin working with Nuggets coaches.

The New York Post fueled the fire over the weekend when it reported the scrimmages between the K-Mart and Nene had become so intense that Martin "sucker punched" Nene last week, leading to stitches and plenty of bad feelings.

All of this has led to the inevitable "who's going to start" mess that tends to make good training-camp copy. Of course, those stories inevitably lead to someone suggesting there's a logjam and a someone needs to be traded. Coaches and GMs prefer to focus on who finishes the game, but the truth is even players care about who starts. It's a badge of honor.

But here's why it doesn't and shouldn't matter in Denver.

The Nuggets essentially have three guys who can play either center or power forward – Martin, Nene and Marcus Camby. Two positions with 48 minutes each means there are 96 minutes of playing time to divide. Given that Nene can play center and Camby has a less-than-stellar track record of staying healthy, what's the big deal?

Camby averaged exactly 30 minutes per game last season. Martin averaged 34. Nene played 32. Add that up and it comes to exactly 96 minutes. No one is losing a minute of playing time.

That's not the only factor here. GM Kiki Vandeweghe can't say it, but the Nuggets still have enormous issues when it comes to Camby staying healthy. Before last season, Camby had never played more than 63 games in season in his career. Last year was a contract year and – surprise – Camby managed to stay healthy for 72. Now that he has a fat, six-year contract, will Camby really be motivated to play through the inevitable paper cuts and stubbed toes that used to keep him out for weeks?

Maybe. Camby's contract is filled with incentives. Most of his bonuses are tied to how many games he plays each season. Camby gets a $2 million bonus if he plays 70 games this year. He also can get another $1.65 million in bonuses if he averages 12 points and 12 boards a game – but only if he does it while playing at least 65 games. That's some pretty strong motivation.

Still the reality is the fragile center has struggled to stay healthy throughout his career. The Nuggets need all three players. Forget about the trade rumors or the position-battle junk. They'll all get time – probably more than they want.

More camp battles abound

The so-called battle between Nene and Martin might be the most high profile, but it's far from the only one brewing now that camp has opened. Here's a quick look at a five others that should be interesting to watch:

Portland Trail Blazers


Abdur-Rahim


Miles
Shareef Abdur-Rahim vs. Darius Miles: Last season, coach Mo Cheeks preferred starting Miles and bringing Abdur-Rahim off the bench. This summer, however, GM John Nash promised the unhappy Abdur-Rahim he'd get the starting nod if the team kept him. That was news to Cheeks, who announced at media day that the starting job was up for grabs. This could be a moot point soon. Rahim claims he has no interest in playing the three, and Cheeks knows that Rahim is a major liability there on defense. Look for a Abdur-Rahim trade sooner or later. Nash's vision for the team likely won't hold up on the court. Both Zach Randolph and Abdur-Rahim are fours. and Cheeks already has made it clear Randolph will be getting the bulk of the time there.

Boston Celtics


Welsch


Davis
Jiri Welsch vs. Ricky Davis: Last year Welsch got the start and Davis came off the bench. But with a new coach running the show, things could be different this year. Doc Rivers has declared the position up for grabs, and it could be a spirited fight. Davis was unhappy being sent to the bench last year and is looking for redemption. He has more athleticism than Welsch and is a better scorer and defender. Welsch is younger but has a more well-rounded game and is willing to be a distributor and a role player, something the Celtics will need when you consider who their other four starters will be – Gary Payton, Paul Pierce, Raef LaFrentz and Mark Blount all like to score. Look for Rivers to ultimately decide he needs Davis to come off the bench to provide scoring for what's looking like a very young and inexperienced second unit.

Orlando Magic


Battie


Howard
Tony Battie vs. Dwight Howard: This is where the rubber meets the road for new GM John Weisbrod and head coach Johnny Davis. Battie is the grizzled veteran who plays the right way but without much upside and with limited mobility. Howard is fresh off his high school prom but has the unlimited upside that comes with being the top pick in the draft. Do the Magic sacrifice a bit now and give Howard the valuable playing time he so desperately needs? He looked great in the summer league defensively, but offensively he still has a long way to go. Or do they play Battie and try to quickly reverse the team's losing ways in an effort to eradicate a pretty funky karma? Davis and Weisbrod's decision here will really map out what direction the Magic intend to go this year.

San Antonio Spurs


Ginobili


Barry
Manu Ginobili vs. Brent Barry: This one isn't a huge deal, as both players will get big minutes this year. Last season, coach Gregg Popovich replaced Ginobili in the starting lineup with Hedo Turkoglu, primarily because Turkoglu struggled coming off the bench and Ginobili didn't. Coming off a gold-medal Olympic performance, Ginobili expects to start and probably should. Barry likely will spend as much time backing up Tony Parker as he does Ginobili and is probably a better fit coming off the bench. Unlike Turkoglu, Barry is effective either way.

Phoenix Suns


Johnson


Richardson
Joe Johnson vs. Quentin Richardson: This is another one that shouldn't turn into a big issue. The Suns told Richardson when he signed this summer that the starting two-guard spot belonged to Johnson. What coach Mike D'Antoni envisions is a lineup that, at times, moves Johnson to the three, Shawn Marion to the four and Amare Stoudemire to the five, which should free up extra minutes for Richardson every night. There will be ramifications, however. Two other players who got regular minutes in the Suns' rotation last season – Casey Jacobsen and Zarko Cabarkapa – will struggle to see the light of day this year. The Suns know it and have been looking to find a new home for both players – preferably landing a young center in return. But so far they haven't found a deal that makes sense.

The summer skinny

One of the annual topics of conversation as camps open centers on who reported in shape and who didn't. Here are some brief nuggets we've been able to glean over the past few days:



Curry


The big news in Chicago was the center Eddy Curry showed up weighing 280 pounds – a weight likely less than he reached at any time during the season. In fact, it's unclear when the last time Curry weighed that little – we'll try to check his birth certificate. Needless to say, the Bulls are ecstatic. The other news out of Bulls camp is that Tyson Chandler actually showed up with some meat on his bones. He's at 245, which is an improvement. Still, he probably needs another 10 pounds to play the way the Bulls want him to play this season.

Pistons rookie Carlos Delfino showed up a little out of shape – he apparently rested a little too much after Argentina's gold-medal Olympic effort – which drew the ire of Larry Brown. "Ginobili told me he thought Carlos had a huge upside," Brown said. "He just needed to learn how to play hard and play with great enthusiasm. I think (Ginobili) was right on the money. Carlos has great skills. He's really athletic and has a good feel for the game. My big thing is how he competes and how hard he'll play."



O'Neal


The Pacers were encouraged to see Jermaine O'Neal and Jonathan Bender show up with more muscle. O'Neal, listed at 245 last season, showed up weighing 260 pounds this year. He hit the weights hard this summer, and his body, especially his upper body, is noticeably thicker. Bender came to camp weighing 237, about 12 pounds of muscle more than he sported last year. With Al Harrington out of the picture, the Pacers will be relying heavily on Bender as their top sixth man. They'd like to play him more at the power forward this year, and the extra weight was crucial.

Around the league


Hard times in the Big Easy: It's been a tough summer for the Hornets. Not only were they forcibly removed from their posh Eastern Conference position and bounced into the Wild West, but the team also lost Jamal Mashburn to a possible career ending injury and has not one but two of it's top players asking for trades. Baron Davis let his grievances be known last month. Center Jamaal Magloire joined the choir Wednesday.

Their beef? Management didn't do enough this summer to make the team competitive – especially in the West. Players have been complaining about the Hornets for years. Owner George Shinn had a rep as the Donald Sterling of the East, and the team has always struggled to attract top free agents.

While Shinn & Co. claim they have no intention of trading Davis or Magloire, watch things closely in New Orleans. Shinn, sources claim, believes in loyalty and feels the two players he's rewarded with big contracts are betraying him. If he trades them both and doesn't get proper value in return, the team could be in serious trouble. Don't be shocked if the Hornets and Raptors start talking again. A Magloire-for-Vince Carter trade might work for both sides.

Meanwhile, David Stern & Co. are also watching with interest. Shinn's poor management ran the team into the ground in Charlotte. The league won't let him do it again in New Orleans. If things don't change fast, either Shinn will be pressured to sell or the team will have to look for yet another home (St. Louis? Kansas City?) where it will have a better chance of good fan and community support.

Sonic bell tolling: It's probably unfair to begin a coaching death watch before the preseason even begins, but our money is on the Sonics' Nate McMillan as the first guy to lose his job this year. McMillan, who is not at fault for the Sonics' woes, has struggled to coach a team filled with players who don't play the tough, hard-nosed style with which he used to approach the game. When management claimed on media day this was a playoff team, you could hear taps playing in the background.

McMillan will go out swinging, like he always has. He's been scrimmaging with the players and running the tightest camp he's ever run. But will it be enough? You look at their starting five – which apparently will include second-year point guard Luke Ridnour – and wonder how they'll ever score in the paint or stop anyone from scoring. Given the right team, McMillan could have been a huge success. The one he has right now just isn't it.

Max deals at a minimum: Pau Gasol became just the second player this summer to garner a max contract (Kobe was the first) when the Grizzlies gave him a six-year, $86 million deal last week. It's the first time since the advent of the "max contract" idea that only two players have pulled down the dough, and they might be the only ones. Players like Tony Parker and Andrei Kirilenko also appear close to lucrative long-term extensions, but not at that rate.

No guarantees for White: How far has Rodney White's stock fallen? As he signed his rookie contract after being drafted in the lottery by the Pistons three seasons ago, White boldly told Pistons GM Joe Dumars that his next contract would be for the max. It was the first sign of trouble. Two days ago, White, now with the Nuggets, finally got his second contract. However, it wasn't quite the max. According to a source with knowledge of the deal, the contract is only partially guaranteed for the next two seasons, meaning White can be cut and walk away with nothing. If that, and a little stint in the county jail don't keep it real, nothing will. (White spent 10 days in jail this summer after being arrested for randomly shooting a gun in the air in Washington, D.C., and still faces a felony charge of unlawful discharge of a gun.)

[Crazy8]

nice info there long. it would help me on my free fantasy nba picks easier.

on the pippen issue, i think pippen was the best sidekick ever, even better then robin from batman. i think the entire bulls starting lineup of the 96-97 should get some recognition too, i mean they are the best team in the nba. i think they can swap the pistons in 6.

[duguxiaojing]

thx spooks is that the espn insider?

Yo man plz keep posting those we appreciate them i dont wanna pay the fee or is it just a sign up thing?


I heard KB pushing 230 now he's heavier then vince. Proboally hoping 2 play a little post . I like watchin Kb when he's heavier anyways he had the best dunks ever 2 years ago when he was 220-225. Whats scary is that LB reports to camp at 240 outta highschool that guy's a freak of nature.

Watched KB on espn felt a little bad for him. One reporter was like do u think your other teammates dont trust you because you broke a locker room code(snitchin out shaq). And he looked like he was about to cry.. then he forced a laugh and was like i dunno u have to ask them.


I know every1's raggin on KB regardless if shaq did or did not rape some girl...that is a b!tch move to pull something like that, kinda makes u wonder what's going on inside KB's head especailly if his accusation was false.

But whatever now<then 1month till season start and im pumped LA's going to the playoffs and miami is going to takeout those punk nAss pistions. I dont care how deep they are

[spooks]

Originally Posted by duguxiaojing

thx spooks is that the espn insider?

Yo man plz keep posting those we appreciate them i dont wanna pay the fee or is it just a sign up thing?

Ya that's the insider. I'll post the ones I find interesting

They have media day pictures floating around you can see Kobe's rippped, but I dont think he's pushing 230 yet.

J O'Neal has supposedly bulked up to 260, adding 15 pounds of muscle. Pacers planning to play him at C.

[Crazy8]

guys gimme some pointers on who not to pick on the top 50 player of this year. just whoever u have in mind as the top 50 players.

[spooks]

Originally Posted by Crazy8

guys gimme some pointers on who not to pick on the top 50 player of this year. just whoever u have in mind as the top 50 players.

Talking about fantasy basketball?

Some guys I'm avoiding this year in early rounds.

Kidd- injuried for 1st half of season, dont know how effective he'll be when he comes back BUT if he's on waivers pick him up and stick him on IR.

Peja- Webber is back and healthy.

Cassell- Contract problems, injuries.

Donyell Marshall- late round pick at best. Won't be seeing as many mins this year coming off the bench for the Raps.

Here are a few guys you should keep your eye on for mid-round picks.

Samuel Dalembert - put up something like 12/12 with 3 blocks last few weeks of the season. Plays FC which is big.

Gerald Wallace- main guy on the Bobcats.

Richard Jefferson- big numbers without Kidd last year, only weapon on NJ now.

Payton- 15 and 6 in a system that didn't suit his game isn't bad. Expect some good numbers from him this year.

Antoine Walker- he's a good player, should put up nice fantasy numbers playing in Atl.

[- L1n -]

Originally Posted by duguxiaojing

thx spooks is that the espn insider?

Yo man plz keep posting those we appreciate them i dont wanna pay the fee or is it just a sign up thing?


I heard KB pushing 230 now he's heavier then vince. Proboally hoping 2 play a little post . I like watchin Kb when he's heavier anyways he had the best dunks ever 2 years ago when he was 220-225. Whats scary is that LB reports to camp at 240 outta highschool that guy's a freak of nature.

Watched KB on espn felt a little bad for him. One reporter was like do u think your other teammates dont trust you because you broke a locker room code(snitchin out shaq). And he looked like he was about to cry.. then he forced a laugh and was like i dunno u have to ask them.


I know every1's raggin on KB regardless if shaq did or did not rape some girl...that is a b!tch move to pull something like that, kinda makes u wonder what's going on inside KB's head especailly if his accusation was false.

But whatever now<then 1month till season start and im pumped LA's going to the playoffs and miami is going to takeout those punk nAss pistions. I dont care how deep they are

no way jopse, piston is still better than miami, i don't care hjow good shaq is, detroit si stillt he team to beat. But don't mistake me i don't like pistons but u have to admit they skills.

lakers top the finals, plz get pass Great Wall of Houston first.lol

[spooks]

Originally Posted by - L1n -

no way jopse, piston is still better than miami, i don't care hjow good shaq is, detroit si stillt he team to beat. But don't mistake me i don't like pistons but u have to admit they skills.

lakers top the finals, plz get pass Great Wall of Houston first.lol

Rockets are a low seed in the West, Lakers will be a low seed. No difference, neither of them are getting anywhere near the finals.

[Crazy8]

nice info there again.
yea i think webber will cus more trouble this year to the kings with which he already did. theres always a chance that peja will shine or not shine. it all depends on webbers position, if he stays at king or not, or the other way around with peja. i hope which ever play the kings might drop go to chi-town, hehe.

what about ur guy okafor? i think he might be putting some big numbers but he will not be an explosive player like tmac but its nice to have him in a fanatasy team. this year i'm going for a what you call it a "import team", i think you know what i mean.

[spooks]

Originally Posted by Crazy8

what about ur guy okafor? i think he might be putting some big numbers but he will not be an explosive player like tmac but its nice to have him in a fanatasy team. this year i'm going for a what you call it a "import team", i think you know what i mean.

I compare him to Elton Brand. Both weren't refined offesively but are good/great defender. Brand was on a crappy team where he got alot of PT to put up numbers. Same deal for Okafor this year playing for the Bobcats.

Brand put up 20/10 with 1.5 bpg I dont see Emeka putting up numbers like that. 14/9 with 2+ blocks which is still pretty good for a mid-round pick if you're in a big pool.

[- L1n -]

Originally Posted by spooks

Rockets are a low seed in the West, Lakers will be a low seed. No difference, neither of them are getting anywhere near the finals.

is a pt saying miami is gonna beat piston cos my arguament was piston beating miami, u seemed to skip it.

[spooks]

Originally Posted by - L1n -

is a pt saying miami is gonna beat piston cos my arguament was piston beating miami, u seemed to skip it.

Find where I said the Heat were gonna beat the Pistons. It was duguxiaojing. I share your sentiment, Heat aren't deep enough to beat the Spurs, Minny and the Pistons.

My point was you saying the Lakers have to get past Houston. How's that gonna be possible when they're both gonna be booted out of the first round.
'Great Wall'? Houston has one of the softest front courts in the league.

[duguxiaojing]

Na man i do have respect for the detroit team in terms of their depth i still hate them. I mean they added mcdyss to team thats already stacked in every position. If he's healthy and half the player he was it will be scary. But i think Miami has a chance who knows what will happen if they keep throwing it to shaq. I mean no one thought detroit had a chance against LA in the finals until they played. As far as LA goes they are still my team but i have my doubts that they will make it as far as Miami in the playoffs.

That is unless u going with odds in vegas where LA is still a favorite.

Las Vegas oddsmakers must like the Lakers' Kobe Bryant. The opening odds for NBA champion are: San Antonio 7-2, followed by the Lakers and Pistons at 9-2, Sacramento at 5-1, Minnesota at 11-2, Indiana at 6-1 and Miami at 13-2.

[Ghaleon]

You NBA fans should check out the Dynasty Series on DVD .... It's probably the best Sports DVD released thus far. There's the Chicago Bulls Dynasty DVD which includes a documentary on each of the 6 championship seasons and also a FULL game broadcast of games of one game from the championship series.

Anyways, just wanted to say that Houston Rockets are giong to kick butt.... McGrady and Yao Ming = deadly combo

[Brian0032]

Originally Posted by Ganryu

Anyways, just wanted to say that Houston Rockets are giong to kick butt.... McGrady and Yao Ming = deadly combo

Deadly combo? There are much better in the west than that. Webber and Stojakovich, Nowitzki and Finley are the deadliest combos in the west. In the east has to be Shaq and Dwayne Wade. When I'm talking about combos I also mean offense only. Don't be suprised of Pistons repeat again. I wish that Bulls could just get out of that hole that they've been in for the past 4-5 years.

[Crazy8]

the deadliest combos got to be the entire detriot team... even darkko. for two i would say the wallaces.

[spooks]

Originally Posted by Brian0032

Deadly combo? There are much better in the west than that. Webber and Stojakovich, Nowitzki and Finley are the deadliest combos in the west. In the east has to be Shaq and Dwayne Wade. When I'm talking about combos I also mean offense only. Don't be suprised of Pistons repeat again. I wish that Bulls could just get out of that hole that they've been in for the past 4-5 years.

Kings duo: Webber is injury prone and on a quick decline, Peja chokes during the most important time (playoffs)

Mavs: Dirk is probably the most unstoppable guy offensively in the league, too bad he's allergic to playing defense. Finley's 31 and ain't that great to begin with.

If you're talking strictly offense, Yao and T-Mac blows them away anyways.

[Brian0032]

Originally Posted by spooks

Kings duo: Webber is injury prone and on a quick decline, Peja chokes during the most important time (playoffs)

Mavs: Dirk is probably the most unstoppable guy offensively in the league, too bad he's allergic to playing defense. Finley's 31 and ain't that great to begin with.

If you're talking strictly offense, Yao and T-Mac blows them away anyways.

Yeah okay, I guess I do agree with you. The Rockets will be a good team this year, but I don't think they have much depth and I think that's gonna' keep them away from being a great team. The T'Wolves, Spurs, Mavs, Kings, and Nuggets are better teams than the Rockets. I also think in the east, Magic will be a much better team without McGrady. Francis is a much better passer than McGrady and is a much better team player also. And for my hometown Bobcats, I hope they get atleast 20 wins this year.