[shen long]

if Huang Zhong is 20-30 years younger he would prob beat either Guan Yu or Zhang fei since even at old age Guan Yu still cant beat him.

[zhaozilong44]

I think they would be evenly matched in fighting skills, but Zhang Fei would have better endurance and gradually wear GY down.

I tend to agree with you. Although I see Zhang Fei as the better fighter, I don't mean that he's so much better that he can thump the next level fighters in my list... unlike Lu Bu. The fight with Ma Chao and Zhang Fei is evident that Zhang's endurance and fighting spirit would eventually overcome Ma.

Originally Posted by shen long

if Huang Zhong is 20-30 years younger he would prob beat either Guan Yu or Zhang fei since even at old age Guan Yu still cant beat him.

I doubt it. His fighting skills wouldn't be as good (if you believe that he did not start out at his peak 20 or 30 years ago), but his stamina would endure. He'll have less fighting experience 20/30 years ago, but more endurance.

[CC]

Originally Posted by zhaozilong44

I tend to agree with you. Although I see Zhang Fei as the better fighter, I don't mean that he's so much better that he can thump the next level fighters in my list... unlike Lu Bu. The fight with Ma Chao and Zhang Fei is evident that Zhang's endurance and fighting spirit would eventually overcome Ma.

Thing is that Lu Bu had 100 strokes with Zhang Fei, but was not getting any hint of an edge over ZF.

That part never made sense to me. ZF + GY should have thumped Lu Bu if ZF alone was already not losing. But until Liu Bei joined in, there was no hint that Lu Bu was losing or tiring.

Kinda inconsistent. The writer should have made ZF losing to Lu Bu, then have GY joining in to even things up. And finally LB to tip the balance.

[zhaozilong44]

Originally Posted by CC

Thing is that Lu Bu had 100 strokes with Zhang Fei, but was not getting any hint of an edge over ZF.

That part never made sense to me. ZF + GY should have thumped Lu Bu if ZF alone was already not losing. But until Liu Bei joined in, there was no hint that Lu Bu was losing or tiring.

Kinda inconsistent. The writer should have made ZF losing to Lu Bu, then have GY joining in to even things up. And finally LB to tip the balance.

Well... One of the novel readers at the Threekingdoms forum mentioned something about certain warriors being better defensive fighters. The thing is, although Lu Bu did not thumped Zhang Fei, he did match 50 stances (I guess it's 50 according to Threekingdoms site and not 100 like I originally remembered). I think Lu Bu would eventually thumped Zhange Fei given a hundred or 2 hundred more stances. The thing is, when both brothers ganged up on Lu Bu, he might lose eventually or just tie with the 2, but Lu Bu was solely concentrating on defense and that alone is enough to tie with the 2 brothers. With Lui Bei to the addition, he would eventually lose due to fatigue (remember, he was fighting all day before taking on the 3).

It's the same deal with Cao Hong. Cao Hong was able to match 50 stances with Ma Chao, but not overcome him and neither could Ma Chao overcome Cao Hong. But the thing is, we all knew that Ma Chao would eventually come out the victor had the fight gone on any longer.

There's also a part in the novel that I barely remember. It's the part where Xu Huang took on both Dian Wei and Xu Zhu. I mean, I think one of the two alone is capable of defeating Xu Huang, but they both combined couldn't beat him cause the fight wasn't that long and Xu Huang was concentrating on defense. It's kind of like when GJ took on Kau Cheen Yan, Au Yeung Fung, and Chow Bak Tong. GJ didn't lose the fight to their combined powers and actually tied them for that brief fight. One of the three, alone, is more than capable of killing GJ, but combined, they couldn't cause GJ concentrated solely on defense (no chance of ever attacking) and the fight was brief.

[Dennis Chen]

Originally Posted by CC

Thing is that Lu Bu had 100 strokes with Zhang Fei, but was not getting any hint of an edge over ZF.

That part never made sense to me. ZF + GY should have thumped Lu Bu if ZF alone was already not losing. But until Liu Bei joined in, there was no hint that Lu Bu was losing or tiring.

Kinda inconsistent. The writer should have made ZF losing to Lu Bu, then have GY joining in to even things up. And finally LB to tip the balance.

Lu Bu went into Xiao Feng mode (or rather, vice versa). :P

[Ren Wo Xing]

Couldn't have. No booze!

[TrieuTuLong]

Originally Posted by CC

Thing is that Lu Bu had 100 strokes with Zhang Fei, but was not getting any hint of an edge over ZF.

That part never made sense to me. ZF + GY should have thumped Lu Bu if ZF alone was already not losing. But until Liu Bei joined in, there was no hint that Lu Bu was losing or tiring.

Kinda inconsistent. The writer should have made ZF losing to Lu Bu, then have GY joining in to even things up. And finally LB to tip the balance.

Because, Romance of three Kingdom book is a biased novel which heavily is on Shu's side. About Ma Chao and Zhang Fei's fight, I think Ma Chao could have defeated Zhang Fei if Liu Bei didn't decide to call a stop on the fight, even though, the novel said that's Zhang Fei's fighting spirit was up which I found that it is kinda BS. Obviously, Liu Bei must have seen some thing about the fight that he didn't like, thus, he had no choice to call a break to stop the fight. I fought Zhang Fei is the most overrated warrior in the story, most of people he had killed were no names generals and none of them really had accomplished anything in their lives. Ironically, major of them were killed because they were afraid of Zhang Fei's voice which put a lot of fear in other people. I wonder how good Zhange Fei really was without his thunderous voice.
I agree with some one said that Yan Liang is one helluva fighter. I wonder what happened if Guan Yu didn't kill him with a surprise, he could have accomplished a lot more. Again, Xu Huang lost to the guy.

[Divine Condor]

Originally Posted by TrieuTuLong

Because, Romance of three Kingdom book is a biased novel which heavily is on Shu's side. About Ma Chao and Zhang Fei's fight, I think Ma Chao could have defeated Zhang Fei if Liu Bei didn't decide to call a stop on the fight, even though, the novel said that's Zhang Fei's fighting spirit was up which I found that it is kinda BS.

What makes you think Ma Chao could have won?

[TrieuTuLong]

Originally Posted by Divine Condor

What makes you think Ma Chao could have won?

This is paragraph I've found on the threekingdom.com about the fight between Zhang Fei and MaChao:

'"But Liu Bei felt that Zhang Fei was running a risk, wherefore he sounded the gong as a signal to cease the fight. And each drew off to his own side. Zhang Fei rested his steed for a time, then, leaving his helmet, he wound a turban about his head, mounted, and rode out to renew the fight. Ma Chao also came out, and the duel continued."

Liu Bei must have seen something that he didn't like that why he stopped the fight. Don't forget this is very high motivated Zhang Fei whom Zhuge liang angered to motivate him. I wonder if same Ma Chao who displayed his poweress on the battle against Cao Cao with a vegeance, I'm sure Zhang Fei would be in a lot of trouble.

[Divine Condor]

Zhang Fei defeated Zhang He and lasted 100 bouts against Lu Bu.

[Zhuge Liang]

I can't remember exactly but did Zhang Fei battle Zhang He one on one?

[Omniflame]

Originally Posted by Zhuge Liang

I can't remember exactly but did Zhang Fei battle Zhang He one on one?

Didn't they fight for a bit, then Zhang He felt Zhang Fei was too powerful so he ran away or something.. (it's been a while)

Didn't Zhang Fei also fight Xu Chu at some point too?

[zhaozilong44]

Didn't they fight for a bit, then Zhang He felt Zhang Fei was too powerful so he ran away or something.. (it's been a while)

Didn't Zhang Fei also fight Xu Chu at some point too?

Not exactly. These two fought for about 13 bouts, but Zhang He had to run not because he was fearful of Zhang Fei. He had to run because his ally's army was being ambushed (or maybe it was his army). What's the point of fighting one-one-one when you're losing the war. I think the only person to ever truly defeat Zhang He was Zhao Yun! Zhang He is capable of taking on any warrior just like Zhang Fei is.

Originally Posted by TrieuTuLong

This is paragraph I've found on the threekingdom.com about the fight between Zhang Fei and MaChao:

'"But Liu Bei felt that Zhang Fei was running a risk, wherefore he sounded the gong as a signal to cease the fight. And each drew off to his own side. Zhang Fei rested his steed for a time, then, leaving his helmet, he wound a turban about his head, mounted, and rode out to renew the fight. Ma Chao also came out, and the duel continued."

Liu Bei must have seen something that he didn't like that why he stopped the fight. Don't forget this is very high motivated Zhang Fei whom Zhuge liang angered to motivate him. I wonder if same Ma Chao who displayed his poweress on the battle against Cao Cao with a vegeance, I'm sure Zhang Fei would be in a lot of trouble.

Although I totally agree with your point that the novel is completely biased towards Shu, I find you comment about Lui Bei's thoughts just plain wrong. You have to remember that Lui Bei is a 3rd party and not the actual two combatants! It doesn't matter how you and I feel about how Mike Tyson would fare against Buster Douglas, it only matters to those two. What Lui Bei said or saw can't be taken litterally. Lui Bei felt Zhang Fei was running a risk, but does that mean Lui Bei doesn't think Ma Chao is not???

The thoughts coming from an observer of a battle and not the actual combatants themselves seriously decreases the hindsight of who, amongst the combating warriors, will come out victor.

If you use that quote from the novel, I can use a better quote.

"The fact was that Ma Chao had begun to see he could not win in direct and simple combat, so he thought to try a ruse."

Even Ma Chao could see that he could not win just by plain fighting with Zhang Fei and this is coming from the guy who's battling Zhang Fei. Granted, Ma Chao might not lose either, but he knew for sure he would not win. Add to that, Zhang Fei's fighting spirit just kept on rising and he wanted to fight so this is why I conclude, that in the long run and in fighting without tricks, ZF would come out the victor.

[TrieuTuLong]

Originally Posted by zhaozilong44

Although I totally agree with your point that the novel is completely biased towards Shu, I find you comment about Lui Bei's thoughts just plain wrong. You have to remember that Lui Bei is a 3rd party and not the actual two combatants! It doesn't matter how you and I feel about how Mike Tyson would fare against Buster Douglas, it only matters to those two. What Lui Bei said or saw can't be taken litterally. Lui Bei felt Zhang Fei was running a risk, but does that mean Lui Bei doesn't think Ma Chao is not???

The thoughts coming from an observer of a battle and not the actual combatants themselves seriously decreases the hindsight of who, amongst the combating warriors, will come out victor.

I always thought it's easy for an outsider with a little knowledge on the subject to observe whom the winner of the battle between to very equally fighters. That's why there are judges for boxing matches, so they could decide which one will be the winner if the game happens to be a tie at the end. It's hard for either Zhang Fei or Ma Chao who were so busy going at each other during that time seeing any mistake which they could have been easily exposed to others during the fight. For this reason, I think Liu Bei had probably seen some things from Fei, that's why he called a break. Surely, we don't know what exactly is going through Liu Bei mind when he called a break, but there must be a reason for this. Zhang Fei had fought many duel fights with others generals before, but never once I recall in the novel that Liu Bei had called a break for Zhang Fei ever. Now, Liu Bei was Zhang Fei's sworn brother, so he wasn't just an innocent observator at all, obvioulsy and logically, he had to care for Zhang Fei more than Ma Chao at that time.

Originally Posted by zhaozilong44

If you use that quote from the novel, I can use a better quote.

"The fact was that Ma Chao had begun to see he could not win in direct and simple combat, so he thought to try a ruse."

Even Ma Chao could see that he could not win just by plain fighting with Zhang Fei and this is coming from the guy who's battling Zhang Fei. Granted, Ma Chao might not lose either, but he knew for sure he would not win. Add to that, Zhang Fei's fighting spirit just kept on rising and he wanted to fight so this is why I conclude, that in the long run and in fighting without tricks, ZF would come out the victor.

If you agreed with me one thing about ROTK book, it is biased. So, how do you know that's exactly Ma Chao thinking at that time? Don't you find many huge BS in the book when you read it? It could have Ma Chao was afraid of that if he came out as a vitor in this fighting, he might still get killed by Liu Bei's army, and his thought at time was longer fighting might actually does more harm to his army than good. That's a normal feeling when you were surrounded by a large amount number of enemies.
Let talk about Lu Bu's fight with the three brothers. If Zhang Fei was really even with Lu Bu, then why the hell did both Guan Yu and Zhang Fei fight equally with LuBu? If you think from a different view, you would see that Zhang Fei was losing and Guan Yu just came out to help out his younger brother that all.
Now, come back, to Zhang Fei and Ma Chao fight for a second, like you said this was a very motivated Zhang Fei, but how motivated was Ma Chao at that time? I'm sure he wasn't motivated as Zhang Fei was since Ma Chao just followed the order from some guy. I'd like to see the same pissed off Ma Chao, the one almost kill Cao Cao if it was for Xu Zhu, and if the best ZF was only even with a not very motivated Ma Chao, then I guess Zhang Fei wasn't the same level with Ma Chao. Remember, the motivated Pang De gave Guan Yu helluva hard time, before Guan Yu could killed him. When people were motivated, they tended to be do better than they normally do.
The another reason why I think Ma Chao is better than Zhang Fei, because, after Ma Chao joined Liu Bei, Guan Yu immidiately sent a letter to Liu Bei for a duel with Ma Chao to see who is better. Normally, the egonistic Guan Yu always think of himself as the best general in this Earth, so Ma Chao must have been one hell of a fighter that made Guan Yu having a doubt about himself.

[zhaozilong44]

Originally Posted by TrieuTuLong

I always thought it's easy for an outsider with a little knowledge on the subject to observe whom the winner of the battle between to very equally fighters. That's why there are judges for boxing matches, so they could decide which one will be the winner if the game happens to be a tie at the end. It's hard for either Zhang Fei or Ma Chao who were so busy going at each other during that time seeing any mistake which they could have been easily exposed to others during the fight. For this reason, I think Liu Bei had probably seen some things from Fei, that's why he called a break. Surely, we don't know what exactly is going through Liu Bei mind when he called a break, but there must be a reason for this. Zhang Fei had fought many duel fights with others generals before, but never once I recall in the novel that Liu Bei had called a break for Zhang Fei ever. Now, Liu Bei was Zhang Fei's sworn brother, so he wasn't just an innocent observator at all, obvioulsy and logically, he had to care for Zhang Fei more than Ma Chao at that time.

You're comparing apples and oranges with boxing judges. Boxing judges don't predict who's going to win. They count how many hits boxers land on each other and announce at the end of the match that the boxer with the most hits wins. Unless of course, one of the boxers is KOed, then the victor becomes even more obvious. Lui Bei was predicting, but then again, he might not be cause there was never a quote from him that he didn't think Ma Chao would come away from the fight unscathed either. Lui Bei was foreshadowing the outcome of the fight, which he feared for his brother. And like you said, that is his brother so why would he not fear for him? Would he fear for Ma Chao's safety at the time? I think not since he's the enemy and has no bonds with LB. There's no indication from Lui Bei who's going to lose cause he only feared for his brother's saftey. And outsiders can't be counted on to predict match outcomes. Cao Cao feared for Xu Zhu when he was fighting with Ma Chao, but does that mean that Ma Chao is the better fighter just cause Cao Cao feared for Xu Zhu? Again, I think not. There are also numerous occassions where both sides feared for their combating warriors and occassions where one side feared for his (but usually it's cause no one from the other side made a remark or thought).

If you agreed with me one thing about ROTK book, it is biased. So, how do you know that's exactly Ma Chao thinking at that time? Don't you find many huge BS in the book when you read it? It could have Ma Chao was afraid of that if he came out as a vitor in this fighting, he might still get killed by Liu Bei's army, and his thought at time was longer fighting might actually does more harm to his army than good. That's a normal feeling when you were surrounded by a large amount number of enemies.

Being biased in the book has nothing to do with our little fighting debate. Yes, LGZ (the author) is completely biased towards Shu and turns everyone of their generals and the somewhat ordinary Zhuge Liang into "gods", but any novel reader with half a brain can figure that out. What we're discussing isn't about the book being biased towards any kingdom here, it's about who the author wanted or hinted to being the better fighter. And to me, it points to Zhang Fei.

Look, Zhuge Liang can't compare with Cao Cao in terms of intelligence, yet LGZ made him to be 10x more smarter than Cao in his book. So what I'm saying is, if you're judging from the book and not actual history, Zhuge Liang is smarter than Cao Cao. This is only true in the book, but not in history. Since we're talking about 2 fighters in the book and a fight that never historically took place, all clues points towards ZF being the better fighter.



And Ma Chao was never afraid of becoming victor. You're interpreting the book wrong. Ma Chao knew for a fact that he could never win in just simple and direct fighting (and this was quoted from him) so how can you say he was afraid of being victorious??? Ma Chao, if you read the entire passage of that fight, did not for one second ever think of being capable of beating Zhang Fei. I would much rather trust the source from the fight himself than from an observer.

As for your argument of him not wanting to win cause of the army, that is just untrue or else he wouldn't try to trick Zhang Fei into pursing him by pretending to lose. When Ma Chao fled (cause he knew he couldn't beat Zhang Fei in direct combat), ZF pursued and then and there, MC shot an arrow at ZF. This tells me (and it should tell all novel readers) that Ma Chao wanted to win the fight, albeit in an unfair manner.

Let talk about Lu Bu's fight with the three brothers. If Zhang Fei was really even with Lu Bu, then why the hell did both Guan Yu and Zhang Fei fight equally with LuBu? If you think from a different view, you would see that Zhang Fei was losing and Guan Yu just came out to help out his younger brother that all.
Now, come back, to Zhang Fei and Ma Chao fight for a second, like you said this was a very motivated Zhang Fei, but how motivated was Ma Chao at that time? I'm sure he wasn't motivated as Zhang Fei was since Ma Chao just followed the order from some guy. I'd like to see the same pissed off Ma Chao, the one almost kill Cao Cao if it was for Xu Zhu, and if the best ZF was only even with a not very motivated Ma Chao, then I guess Zhang Fei wasn't the same level with Ma Chao. Remember, the motivated Pang De gave Guan Yu helluva hard time, before Guan Yu could killed him. When people were motivated, they tended to be do better than they normally do.
The another reason why I think Ma Chao is better than Zhang Fei, because, after Ma Chao joined Liu Bei, Guan Yu immidiately sent a letter to Liu Bei for a duel with Ma Chao to see who is better. Normally, the egonistic Guan Yu always think of himself as the best general in this Earth, so Ma Chao must have been one hell of a fighter that made Guan Yu having a doubt about himself.

Acutally, that whole fight makes sense to me. Many fights in wuxia novels are the same way and even in the real world, it still holds true. ZF wasn't losing, but he would've eventually. I mean, you can take on one person for 5 moves without either one having any advantage. But since you know you're the better fighter and would eventually beat him in 20 moves, a helper of his comes in. Now, you're better than both of these 2 fighters individually, but combined, you're on equal footing with them. You can KO either fighter, individually, in no less than 20 moves, but since their combining their abilities against yours, you can't take out either one and nor can they. The thing is, you also can't beat the individual fighter in less than 20 moves cause they're not that bad enough or you're not that good enough.

ZF was able to last 50 moves with Lu Bu, but beyond the 50 or maybe 100, ZF would've been toast. GY is in the same league with ZF, but combines, LB is still their equal or perhaps below them and he only needs to concentrate on the defensive and forget about attacking. It all makes sense if you really think about it.