[Mojo Jojo]

To me, it's more realistic that his belief's are slightly messed up. When you live isolated away from civilization, you're not exposed to certain 'reality checks' that you would face if you lived with actual people and an actual culture around you. Someone living with people and culture would tend to discard any impractical beliefs that wouldn't make sense in the 'real world' whereas someone isolated has time for any beliefs, no matter how impractical, to become codified in his mind, especially if he were a rigid thinker to begin with.

Does this make Guo Jing imperfect? Perhaps. Unrealistic? No.



Disclaimer. The only things I know about Guo Jing are from the translations of the excellent translators on this site and the Brave Archer series from Shaw Brothers. I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination.

[Laviathan]

Oh that's alright. Your comments and views do make a lot of sense. But I wonder how you would feel about Guo Jing if you read the Chinese novel. You might see things more from my perspective... or not of course.

[Dennis Chen]

Maybe Guo Jing acquired his aggressive nature because he grew up with Mongolians.

[dbx]

Originally Posted by Candide

Yeah, so what? There are 10000000001 other pairs who do the same thing. Boring. I'm not saying what YG did was wrong, but it wasn't anything special either. Certainly doesn't warrant all the worshipping I witness. YG (esp when he was younger) seems to think that the sun shines out of his arse, or at least his fans give me that impression, just because he's fighting the injustices of society to be with his love. Pffft. He's far from unique. I've seen many people like him in real life and in fiction. Haven't see/met anyone like GJ though.

I don't think there is any worshipping here.
Yang Guo didn't think that much of himself, he was proud but he just considered himself a orphan. He did like to one-up people but that nothing to do with what he thought of himself and more to do with being mischevious and untaught in the norms of the world.

From what I have read about Jin Yong's life, he was in a "inapproiate relationship" when he was writing ROCH and put a lot of his experiences into it.

[Dennis Chen]

Maybe Qiao Feng acquired a compassionate and peaceful nature because he was raised by the Han Chinese.

Hm. Interesting dichotomy here. I wonder if Jin Yong is trying to say something.

[Han Solo]

Originally Posted by Laviathan

With such an attitude, we might as well flush all literary works down the toilet.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't analyze, but to be wary of over-analyzing.

More to follow, once i got some sleep.

[Laviathan]

I have been on the forum for years, and this is the first time in which people say that I over-analyze stuff... twice in the same thread. I'm sorry, but that's just because the object of analysis is Guo Jing, IMO. If I was writing stuff about, for example, Golden Lion Lord Xie Xun, nobody would have complained.

[PJ]

It's refreshing for me to see a character like GJ. He's unique

Really, a hero who does the right thing? Wait, where else have I seen this? Oh that's right, in every hollywood movie.

It's very easy to like GJ of course, the heroic model worshipped by readers for milleniums. If there were more ppl like him in real life, we think the world might be a better place; since people like him hardly exist, we like reading about him. But for these reasons, he's an escapist character to me. How much easier do you think it is to write about a likable protagonist than one that doesn't necessarily sacrifice himself, one that doesn't put others above him? I don't believe for a second any human being is unselfish, and it's about time artists started modeling their protagonists based on the real world, damn it.

[Dennis Chen]

It's easier to deconstruct a hero to make him interesting, but it's far more difficult to make a perfect, righteous hero interesting. I think Guo Jing is the latter.

[Han Solo]

Originally Posted by Laviathan

I have been on the forum for years, and this is the first time in which people say that I over-analyze stuff... twice in the same thread. I'm sorry, but that's just because the object of analysis is Guo Jing, IMO. If I was writing stuff about, for example, Golden Lion Lord Xie Xun, nobody would have complained.

I'm sorry if i offended you.
I wrote that after not sleeping for more than 24 hours. Still not having enough sleep yet. I will try to post up later on.

Again, i apologize.

[CC]

Originally Posted by Laviathan

I have been on the forum for years, and this is the first time in which people say that I over-analyze stuff... twice in the same thread. I'm sorry, but that's just because the object of analysis is Guo Jing, IMO. If I was writing stuff about, for example, Golden Lion Lord Xie Xun, nobody would have complained.

I didnt say anything yet. But I am about 75% in agreement with you original post.

I think its possible for a 6yr kid to be brainwashed by the mom though.

The main thing which I find illogical/can't sympathise with GJ is how quickly he ignores his mongolian upbringing. Except for that part where he lets the veteran mogol soldier back to his lines, I would think that a person brought up by mongols would have a bit more references to the dilemma of fighting them. But JY did let in some mitigating factors like making him see how the Khan caused his mom to suicide. Maybe JY saw this flaw too, and came up with Xiao Feng's story after that.

The part about him wanting to cut GF's arm is wierd too.

[Laviathan]

Originally Posted by Han Solo

I'm sorry if i offended you.
I wrote that after not sleeping for more than 24 hours. Still not having enough sleep yet. I will try to post up later on.

Again, i apologize.

No, it's OK. I don't have any problem with that.

I am dissapointed because, well you guys are all educated, intelligent people, but instead of seeing my original point and message, and trying to ponder about it, you guys all go Gung-Ho on me like I was guilty of blasphemy.

I mean, it's fine that you disagree with me, as long as you understand what I'm getting at.

I was merely pointing out that Guo jing was not well-written, that his character development is not smooth and not consistent. In other words, I was blaming Jin Yong as a writer, not the Demi-God Guo Jing as a person. But instead of just trying to consider the possibility of Guo jing being a weak novel character, you people use "indoctrination", "recent neuro-psychology research results", "INTP rationals", "Guardians", "Freudian theories", "Jungian analysis", "Socionics" etc as excuses for his behaviour... And you guys say I am over-analyzing?

This is not about hypotheses or theories. If Guo Jing needs so many far-fetched theories and hypotheses to back up his actions, than he is not a well-written character. This is not about personal taste or whatever. You either like Guo jing or you don't. That's not the point. The point is: what did Jin Yong intend with the character of Guo Jing? Did he succeed? Did he create the personality of Guo Jing and then have him react to different situations? Or did Jin Yong create different situations and let Guo Jing's personality adapt to it? The latter is true IMO, that's why I say Guo Jing is like a robot, Jin Yong's robot.

This is not intended to be a Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor flame war thread. Candide in his posts is basically saying: "I am not listening! I like Guo Jing! I can't hear you!!!" I mean, what good does that do?

People, all I ask from you is, if you have the time, to pull LOCH off the book shelves, either the 2nd edition or the 3rd edition, and preferably the original Chinese text instead of a translation... and read with an open mind.

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by Laviathan

I was merely pointing out that Guo jing was not well-written, that his character development is not smooth and not consistent. In other words, I was blaming Jin Yong as a writer, not the Demi-God Guo Jing as a person. But instead of just trying to consider the possibility of Guo jing being a weak novel character, you people use "indoctrination", "recent neuro-psychology research results", "INTP rationals", "Guardians", "Freudian theories", "Jungian analysis", "Socionics" etc as excuses for his behaviour... And you guys say I am over-analyzing? .

I can't really keep silent for this.

How are theories that describe human behavior remarkably well despite the simplification considered to be "excuses" for his behavior?


You first present your thesis and gave examples to show your point. That's perfectly acceptable (and in fact I was in agreement with some of your points).

Then others read your comments and gave reasons why that's not really true and then cited sources that show how it actually makes sense based on GJ's background (and although it doesn't address everything, it did make sense as well).



Just because there's an isolated cases where someone thought maybe you're overanalysing and you've gone out and plainly accused the forum of being overly biased towards GJ.


Now, it's plainly obviously that the members of this forum are very staunchly supportive of their favorite characters. However, does that really matter that much when the rebuttals given are in fact well reasoned?

This is not about hypotheses or theories. If Guo Jing needs so many far-fetched theories and hypotheses to back up his actions, than he is not a well-written character. This is not about personal taste or whatever. You either like Guo jing or you don't. That's not the point. The point is: what did Jin Yong intend with the character of Guo Jing? Did he succeed? Did he create the personality of Guo Jing and then have him react to different situations? Or did Jin Yong create different situations and let Guo Jing's personality adapt to it? The latter is true IMO, that's why I say Guo Jing is like a robot, Jin Yong's robot.

First of all, I'm fairly sure JY didn't give so much thought to the point of using psychoanalysis to justify GJ's character.

However, the fact that most people don't feel there's any serious problem with GJ's character at first reading indicates that GJ's personality is at least written enough to not trigger the "hunch" alarms. Keep in mind that humans are extremely sensitive demonstrably to things that seem human but are subtly not.

Then at closer look, some of GJ's traits and reactions seem a bit odd. That's fine. GJ's then not a perfectly written character.

Then some additional analysis later, GJ's actions are understandable considering context. I personally feel this step is the overanalysis state.



I digress. Despite GJ's character being odd at the first closer look, that doesn't make him a poorly written character. When you take a close look at other characters, you'll find inconsistencies as well. What is clear though is that JY didn't create GJ to be a simple as people first think.

[Candide]

Now now Lav, don't get all sensitive. I have been following your points, unlike what you thought "I am not listening! I like Guo Jing! I can't hear you!!!", I just disagree with them. I didn't even quote any BS psychological theory as I don't know about them

OK here we go again. Let's start from the beginning. Your main claim: Guo Jing is a very weak novel character. This claim, no matter how well you are backing it up, is false for a simple reason: he's among the most popular characters in wuxia novels. Stats don't lie, Lav. JY must have done something right when he created him, eh? As for him not being realistic enough, well, we're reading a fantasy, not real life, mate.

[Moinllieon]

Heh, apparently this thread is about Guo Jing turning out to be quirkier than everyone thought he was while some people are making Yang Guo out to be the stereotype. That's a new one.

[Evil East]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

First of all, I'm fairly sure JY didn't give so much thought to the point of using psychoanalysis to justify GJ's character.

true, being a student in literature, i have been told by my professors that most of the time, the authors are not even aware that what they are writing fits with some psychoanalis theories, it is their artistic inspiration, human sensitivity at the moment or knowledge of the world that lead them to write what they write.

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

I digress. Despite GJ's character being odd at the first closer look, that doesn't make him a poorly written character. When you take a close look at other characters, you'll find inconsistencies as well. What is clear though is that JY didn't create GJ to be a simple as people first think.

Though i agree with Lav that there is something weird about GJ as a novel character, but i would not say that he is poorly written. And to the question what did JY intend with this character, i think no1 can give a satisfactory answer to this, taking into account what i have said earlier, that is sometimes the author, himself, is not aware about what he is writing; because if one suggests that from the beginning a writer has set himself a certain boundary that he has to follow in his work, that would mean he restrains himself in a certain field, then his work will become less artistic, one has to keep in mind that literature is an art, and arts has to be limitless, just like our human thinking.

[Laviathan]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

I can't really keep silent for this.

How are theories that describe human behavior remarkably well despite the simplification considered to be "excuses" for his behavior?

OK, excuses was a bad choice of words from my part.

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

You first present your thesis and gave examples to show your point. That's perfectly acceptable (and in fact I was in agreement with some of your points).

Then others read your comments and gave reasons why that's not really true and then cited sources that show how it actually makes sense based on GJ's background (and although it doesn't address everything, it did make sense as well)..

I was annoyed because I felt that the posts were not directed at my original point of Guo Jing as a novel character, but are defenses for the actions of the hero Guo Jing. Even if the actions of the person Guo Jing can be explained, it does not make the novel character Guo Jing OK. Like I said, the difference in character between old Hu Fei and young Hu Fei can be explained with logic, but it is still true that old Hu Fei is not as well-writtten as young Hu Fei.

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

Just because there's an isolated cases where someone thought maybe you're overanalysing and you've gone out and plainly accused the forum of being overly biased towards GJ.

Now, it's plainly obviously that the members of this forum are very staunchly supportive of their favorite characters. However, does that really matter that much when the rebuttals given are in fact well reasoned?

Hey, that's how I felt, if the initial feeling was wrong, then I apologise. I blame it on Candide, after all these years, he can still piss me off sometimes.

And basically, I present my case with quotes from the novel, I compare certain facts and reach certain conclusions. The rebuttals from others were often filled with psychological theories which were just way beyond my comprehension... Maybe my accusation was based on a sense of helplessness: "You bunch of Guo Jing defenders, using your Freud and Yung mumbojumbo knowledge against a poor, uneducated guy like me!". I know it's not true, but it certainly felt that way. Why don't we just go by the book, pray? With all due respect to Mojo Jojo and others, but if you haven't read the book, then how can you defend Guo Jing with psychological theories? Yes, the rebuttals made sense, but that's more because the posters here are very knowledgeable and intelligent when it comes to the field of psychology, not because Guo Jing is really well-written, in my humble opinion.

Don't know if this makes sense...

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

First of all, I'm fairly sure JY didn't give so much thought to the point of using psychoanalysis to justify GJ's character.

However, the fact that most people don't feel there's any serious problem with GJ's character at first reading indicates that GJ's personality is at least written enough to not trigger the "hunch" alarms. Keep in mind that humans are extremely sensitive demonstrably to things that seem human but are subtly not.

Then at closer look, some of GJ's traits and reactions seem a bit odd. That's fine. GJ's then not a perfectly written character.

Then some additional analysis later, GJ's actions are understandable considering context. I personally feel this step is the overanalysis state..

Hey, maybe I am over-analyzing... But then again, all my previous posts were.

I

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

digress. Despite GJ's character being odd at the first closer look, that doesn't make him a poorly written character. When you take a close look at other characters, you'll find inconsistencies as well. What is clear though is that JY didn't create GJ to be a simple as people first think.

That's fair, I can live with that. Yet I personally feel that Guo Jing is the most inconsistent of them all, that's all.

Originally Posted by Candide

Now now Lav, don't get all sensitive. I have been following your points, unlike what you thought "I am not listening! I like Guo Jing! I can't hear you!!!", I just disagree with them. I didn't even quote any BS psychological theory as I don't know about them

Yep, you're one of the few he didn't do so, yet you were the one who pissed me off the most. It's part of your charm I guess... Candide, I hate you with love.

Originally Posted by Candide

OK here we go again. Let's start from the beginning. Your main claim: Guo Jing is a very weak novel character. This claim, no matter how well you are backing it up, is false for a simple reason: he's among the most popular characters in wuxia novels. Stats don't lie, Lav. JY must have done something right when he created him, eh? As for him not being realistic enough, well, we're reading a fantasy, not real life, mate.

Nope, I disagree. The first two editions of LOCH had many flaws, like the inconsistency with Huang Rong being older than Guo Jing. HSDS contains a lot of illogical stuff, like the thing about Xie Xun knowing about Zhou Zhiruo's betrayal on the island etc... Most readers never noticed these flaws, LOCH and HSDS are among the most popular stories of wuxia literature, and the flaws have not been corrected until recently, yet they are flaws nonetheless. Just because Jin Yong's great writing style can cover the flaws very well to a point in which the majority of the readers do not detect any inconsistency at all, does not change the fact that flaws were made. LOCH is still a great novel, yet Guo Jing is indeed a flawed novel character, in my opinion. He's still a great guy and a great hero, but he's not well-written. In the same way that Captain Janeway of Voyager is a good person, but she is not a well-written character.

[ChronoReverse]

Nope, I disagree. The first two editions of LOCH had many flaws, like the inconsistency with Huang Rong being older than Guo Jing. HSDS contains a lot of illogical stuff, like the thing about Xie Xun knowing about Zhou Zhiruo's betrayal on the island etc... Most readers never noticed these flaws, LOCH and HSDS are among the most popular stories of wuxia literature, and the flaws have not been corrected until recently, yet they are flaws nonetheless. Just because Jin Yong's great writing style can cover the flaws very well to a point in which the majority of the readers do not detect any inconsistency at all, does not change the fact that flaws were made.

I agree, there are certainly flaws in terms of internal consistency. JY's a great writer so they're not immediately obvious (and they're mostly oversights he made) but nonetheless, they exist.

However, that doesn't change the fact that his novels have succeeded at their primary goal of being entertainment and secondary goal of presenting some of JY's views.

LOCH is still a great novel, yet Guo Jing is indeed a flawed novel character, in my opinion. He's still a great guy and a great hero, but he's not well-written. In the same way that Captain Janeway of Voyager is a good person, but she is not a well-written character.

Although GJ's character is somewhat contradictary in some circumstances, I don't feel it's fair to compare him to Janeway. Janeway is even flatter than GJ, extremely stubborn that she's right and ultimately (unlike GJ) proved that even she didn't believe in her own morals as strongly (I didn't like Endgames in case you're wondering. They could've at least kept Janeway's character consistent instead of giving that half-*** attempt to "flesh out" her character at last minute).

Now, I agree that GJ isn't well-written as in that not every single one of his actions are completely described by a set of pre-conditions. However, his character is likeable and has an element of "randomness" that does give him some appeal. That said, some of his actions are still rather odd making GJ a mediocre character if analysed in terms of internal consistency. Nonetheless, because of the way his character is portrayed, GJ is a good character in that the reader feels an attachment to him.

[Evil East]

Originally Posted by Candide

he's among the most popular characters in wuxia novels.[/b] Stats don't lie, Lav.

popularity is not necessarily a good criteria to determine if a novel is well written or not, right now the example that comes into my mind is, The Great Gatsby, which is S.Fitzgerald's most popular novel, but his best novel is, Tender is the Night but this novel didn't have the same success as, The Great Gatsby just because the readers did not understand the artistic inspiration of the author who used the textual structure itself to epitomize the downfall movement of a man.

[Anonymous]

Lav: 1. The first time we encounter Guo Jing as an active personage in the novel was when he, at the age of 6, saw the troops of Temujin's Borjigin tribe engage in combat with the Taichiut tribe. His initial reaction was fear: understandable, for he was just a 6 year old boy who had never seen a battle before. But when the fighting really began, young Guo Jing wasn't afraid anymore, on the contrary, the longer he watched the more happy he became. After returning home, he told his mother Li Ping the entire story, and he was extremely excited. Li Ping was happy to see that Guo Jing had inherited the martial attitude of his father. This clearly shows Guo Jing nature: he's not violent, but he does enjoy fighting. He finds it fascinating and thrilling. This was also apparent in later chapters like Chapter 17, when Zhou Botong taught Guo Jing the Left-Right Technique.

Observations:
1. But when the fighting really began, young Guo Jing wasn't afraid anymore, on the contrary, the longer he watched the more happy he became. After returning home, he told his mother Li Ping the entire story, and he was extremely excited. Li Ping was happy to see that Guo Jing had inherited the martial attitude of his father. This clearly shows Guo Jing nature: he's not violent, but he does enjoy fighting.
------ Note: His happiness of the fight doesnt 100% equate "enjoy fighting." Could be just fascinated by this "fresh experience." However, lets assume youre correct.]
.
.

Lav: After befriending Tulei, the two of them got into a fight with Dusi and his lackeys. Being outnumbered, Guo Jing pull out his dagger to protect himself and his friend. Because of the dagger, the Seven Freaks figured out he is the child they were looking for. The Freaks offered to teach the two boys martial arts, and Tulei happily accepted the offer. But Guo Jing gave a very strange answer: "Mother said that I may not fight with other people. If I learn skills to beat others, Mother will get angry with me." Now, we know that Guo Jing is a very brave boy who actually enjoys fighting, and if necessary he is not afraid to pull a dagger to protect himself. But when the Freaks offered to teach him fighting skills, he says that fighting is not correct… i.e. denying his own nature. For a 6-year-old boy who was almost beaten up by bullies, if offered the chance to become strong, he would most probably not decline… unless he is craven. And we know that Guo Jing is a brave lad. So his reaction is very unnatural.

2. In Chapter 3, it is stated: "Guo Jing has often heard his mother's stories about the brutal Jins… In his little mind is a deeply rooted hatred against the Jins." Please note that Guo Jing was still 6 years old. He has never saw any Jins before, so could he have produced such genuine feelings of hatred? It seems awfully strange to me.

3. In Chapter 4, when Ke Zhen'E asked who killed his father, his reaction was: Guo Jing grinded his teeth and said: "His name is… Duan Tiande!"… Ke Zhen'E deepened his voice and asked: "What would you do if you see Duan Tiande?" In Guo Jing's little eyes sparkled a flame of wrath, and he replied: "I will avenge my father and kill him."

Now, he has never met his father and he never saw Duan Tande killing his father. He only heard stories from his mom. So even though on a rational level he knows he should consider Duan Tiande as an enemy, it is almost impossible for a 6-year-old to have nurtured true emotions of hatred,

Observation:
1. [In Chapter2?] Because of the dagger, the Seven Freaks figured out he is the child they were looking for. The Freaks offered to teach the two boys martial arts, and Tulei happily accepted the offer. But Guo Jing gave a very strange answer: "Mother said that I may not fight with other people. If I learn skills to beat others, Mother will get angry with me." [...] denying his own nature. [...] In Chapter 4, when Ke Zhen' asked who killed his father, his reaction was: Guo Jing grinded his teeth and said: "His name is… Duan Tiande!"… Ke Zhen'E deepened his voice and asked: "What would you do if you see Duan Tiande?" In Guo Jing's little eyes sparkled a flame of wrath, and he replied: "I will avenge my father and kill him."
----- Note: There's an interplay with the 7Freaks "actions" and GuoJings "response." It isnt JUST about Guo Jing but the Freaks + GuoJing [a conversation is a "duality" betw two people: the other could be one-self as in a monologue.] Let's ask ALSO: are there other ways to look at this? Yes. Guo Jings denial to learn from the 7Freaks could also be something from the 7Freaks. What? 7Freaks represent "Han"/(advanced society)/(advanced ego building) vs. the current Mongolian environment. It's one thing to "say" he's willing to kill his imaginary opponent than "actually" killing him and going that distance to do it. GJ had/must goto the "Han" region (high culture: high ego) to kill his foe and in the end of LOCH, he left to BlossomIsland (low culture: low/no ego). [Note: this is just an outline, I'm just doing one "sketch"/idea not "detailing" other facets.]
.
2. In psychology, there's just a tendency/probability/etc that person will act that way BUT not 100%. We as people are not "always" consistent in "our" behaviors. GJ may be in his "good" [angelic/heroic/saint] mood when he refused the 7Freaks. The Mongolian chapters are kinda like a list of tendencies that Guo Jing goes through so we can see their interaction/dynamism when he interacts with the "Han" people later on. Think about it: Baby GJ resides with his mother (genes dominant) and in "border" of a weak society (Mongols), then teen GJ goes to more civilized/culture/ (society-based) Mongol, then to young adult GJ goto the "Han"/(advanced society)-region. It's all part of his ego development, which explains this:

Lav: Another thing I feel many people fail to notice is that Guo Jing, compared to Xiao Feng, is a very "strange character". He grew up in Mongolia, but he did not adapt himself to Mongolian culture. Of course, his mother and teachers taught him about the Han ways, but it was still seven Han persons compared to thousands of Mongolians... [...]

Yet, when Yang Guo introduced Dragon Girl to Khubilai Khan as his teacher and wife, the latter did not mind at all. It was explicitely stated by Jin Yong that Mongol society did not have any notion of considering teacher-student marriage as incestuous. And please note that, unlike Guo Jing (who enjoyed only minimal training in the civil arts) Khubilai was raised among and tutored by Confucanist scholars!

.
.

We all tend to see Guo Jing as a very nice person, a compassionate hero with great virtue. [...] Is this really our hero Guo Jing? Many Jin Yong heroes had to avenge their fathers' deaths. But Guo Jing differs from from other male protagonists in that his vengeance was purely a product of indoctrination.

----- Agreed. The ego is made by indoctrination [ie. Western science/materialism vs. Eastern mysticism/intuition/transcendence]. The biggest indoctrination is the brain [fight/flight] ... survival. And GJ's a hero becuz he overcame this in the end.
.
.

After awhile, Guo Jing prepared an altar for his father.
It scared the living daylights out of Duan Tiande… and he wetted his own pants. Guo Jing then asked: "Do you want to die a quick death, or would you like to be tortured first?"
... Is this really our hero Guo Jing? [...]
But instead of just trying to consider the possibility of Guo jing being a weak novel character, you people use "indoctrination", "recent neuro-psychology research results", "INTP rationals", "Guardians", "Freudian theories", "Jungian analysis", "Socionics" etc as excuses for his behaviour...

----- Nice comment. Guo Jing = "Guo's Peace." You dont just go to peace without "upheaval" [duality: without upheaval/havoc, a word such as "peace" doesnt exist]. The weak government of "Han" [aka scenery] tells the story...
.
.

Lav: Compared to Guo Jing, Xiao Feng is much more real. Xiao Feng, Yang Guo and Chen Jialuo are all real human persons, while Guo Jing is in essence more like a robot who does things because he was programmed to do so.

----- Only cuz XF/YG's ego has fewer flaws: more continuous like memory [ie. If memory doesnt exist, "I" [personal pronoun] doesnt exist: psychology. Think: who are you (subjectively to yourself) if your memories are wiped clean.]
.
.

Lav: During that point of the story, Guo Jing had to face great psychological dilemmas: the slaughter of Samarqand, death of his mother, "loss" of Huang Rong... He eventually blamed everything on martial arts, and I as a reader was hoping that he could ponder about life and in the end grow spiritually. But it were the reunion with Huang Rong and the words of Hong Qigong "Yes, I killed a lot of people but they all deserved to die" that made his mind come at ease... and also stopped any hope of spiritual development. Guo Jing's character development was:

1. Have to use martial arts for good, fight evil
2. Is good really good? Is evil really evil? Martial arts are evil
3. Have to use martial arts for good, fight evil

It is so overly simplistic and cliché that it makes my stomach hurt... In the end of LOCH, Guo Jing could have become a great novel personage with a great character developnment, but in the end Jin Yong blew it (IMO). And ROCH did not help either...

----- GJ near end of LOCH was searching for peace/enlightenment becuz he knows the hopeless of "action"/(martial arts). He understand an interconnectedness of life. He's in the practice of "negation" [Tao]. Your passage means that GJ at this point in time is a "warrior" [nurtured into martial arts] and he's questioning why do it becuz from martial arts comes both good and evil [duality]. What H7G told him and GJ realize is that: be a warrior, but use this function for the good of all (use martial arts for good) [but not just the good of "Han": aka be XENA the warrior princess. haha]. [Da*n, I finally found when GJ became realized. Thx Lav. ] It's the same passage of Arjuna and Krishna. Now in ROCH, GJ did betray Mongolians in a sense, but if we look closely, he only protected the "Hans." He could've used the war manual and 9Yin and heroes to invade the Mongols, and would've won [I'm sure of it]. Same with YG, he could've initiated a massacre on all the Mongols after killing their king and HSDS's prologue ["Han" invaded] wouldnt happen. BUTTTT, both advertised "peace." Here's Arjuna and Krishna thing:
[Reclaiming the Self ch2]
http://www.brysons.net/academic/chap2.html
Of course, a better translation of the Arjuna and Krishna encounter is here:

[Course in Consciousness chap17]
Chapter II, Verse 47 of the Bhagavad Gita in which Lord Krishna (a manifestation of God) describes to Arjuna the essence of karma yoga, the yoga of action (as translated from Sanskrit by Ramesh, in The Bhagavad Gita: A Selection (no date)):

"All you can do is to work for the sake of the work. You have no right to the fruits of the work (the consequences of your actions are not in your control). But do not let this fact make you lean towards inaction."

Ramesh explains that the proper interpretation of this verse is that nobody has the freedom to choose whether or not to work. There is no free will, and work merely happens spontaneously. Any fear that acceptance of this verse will lead to fatalistic inaction is unfounded because whether action is to occur or not is not up to the individual.

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Lav: I was merely pointing out that Guo jing was not well-written, that his character development is not smooth and not consistent. In other words, I was blaming Jin Yong as a writer, not the Demi-God Guo Jing as a person.

----- No comments, cuz I havent read LOCH. But agree that JY may be inconsistent [some parts of too cheesy] but also that we as readers may not understand the author's masterplan.
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Lav: Did he succeed? Did he create the personality of Guo Jing and then have him react to different situations? Or did Jin Yong create different situations and let Guo Jing's personality adapt to it? The latter is true IMO, that's why I say Guo Jing is like a robot, Jin Yong's robot.

----- The matrix: the matrix machine (brain). At least a robot is "consistent." [Architect: What do you think I am? A human?] haha.
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Lav: However, the fact that most people don't feel there's any serious problem with GJ's character at first reading indicates that GJ's personality is at least written enough to not trigger the "hunch" alarms. [...]
Then at closer look, some of GJ's traits and reactions seem a bit odd. That's fine. GJ's then not a perfectly written character.

----- Agreed.
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Lav: I was annoyed because I felt that the posts were not directed at my original point of Guo Jing as a novel character, but are defenses for the actions of the hero Guo Jing. Even if the actions of the person Guo Jing can be explained, it does not make the novel character Guo Jing OK. Like I said, the difference in character between old Hu Fei and young Hu Fei can be explained with logic, but it is still true that old Hu Fei is not as well-writtten as young Hu Fei.

----- Da*n, youre using Tolkien's "internal logical consistency." OK, maybe readers have different sensitivity threshold to what is "inconsistent." Or that GJ interact with environment has an error: you have to be very specific in this case [aka where is the trigger for u?].
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CReverse: Janeway is even flatter than GJ, extremely stubborn that she's right and ultimately (unlike GJ) proved that even she didn't believe in her own morals as strongly (I didn't like Endgames in case you're wondering. They could've at least kept Janeway's character consistent instead of giving that half-*** attempt to "flesh out" her character at last minute).

----- Not watching as much "Voyager", but curious, why is Janeway's character flat?