The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[ChronoReverse]

HYS also casually negated YG's palm power. Neither was really going all out so we pretty much only have HYS's judgement. If I wanted to be callous I could even say that it's rather sad that a mighty blow from YG's Sad Palms could be completely dissipated by a flick of HYS' finger

Nonetheless, power delivered isn't really the important part since any solid blow from a Great to another Great is a trump. A direct clash always ends up an internal energy struggle and we simply have no data on what was up with GJ at this point (beside conjectures based on 9 Yin).

[Ken Tran]

we simply have no data on what was up with GJ at this point (beside conjectures based on 9 Yin).

GJ internal power was on par with OYF when they clashed at the beginning of ROCH, yet several years of training 9 Yin later, GJ internal power was stated to be lesser than GWM.

9 Yin is overated.

Book it!

[PJ]

We have to be careful about using the term "power" here. The greatest asset of Sad Palms isn't how much damage it can deliver but its unpredictability.

Well according to the description of Sad Palm, while the palm style is indeed strange and unpredictable, what makes it especially competent is the internal foundation: 他由此深思，创出了一套完整的掌法，出手与寻常武功大异，厉害之处，全在内力，一共是一十七招 。

Yang Guo has created a comprehensive palm style that differs greatly from ordinary martial arts. The strong point of its 17 stances stems entirely from the internal aspect.

Well, I believe the "unpredictability" of Sad Palm lies in how much damage an ordinary blow can deliver For example, even though Yang Guo's blow looks ordinary to begin with, it contains a lot more power than meets the eye, which is what seemed to send Goldie to his doom.

[Ken Cheng]

GJ internal power was on par with OYF when they clashed at the beginning of ROCH

Yes, and isn't it something that the 9 Yum Jen Ging can elevate a 33-year old's inner power to the level of a 60-something Great's?

[ChronoReverse]

Well, I believe the "unpredictability" of Sad Palm lies in how much damage an ordinary blow can deliver For example, even though Yang Guo's blow looks ordinary to begin with, it contains a lot more power than meets the eye, which is what seemed to send Goldie to his doom.

Well, that's also the same way some of HL18P stances can be described. Of course HL18P is no ordinary martial art.

Nonetheless, the descriptions of how Sad Palms came out clearly show that the prime unpredictabilty GWM had trouble with was the external portion since YG actually landed blows. At the Great-level, a landed blow from a signature technique is a trump anyways.

GJ internal power was on par with OYF when they clashed at the beginning of ROCH, yet several years of training 9 Yin later, GJ internal power was stated to be lesser than GWM.

We have absolutely no information about the level GJ achieved by the end of ROCH. Stated to be weaker than GWM? I'd like to know where.

[Ken Cheng]

We have absolutely no information about the level GJ achieved by the end of ROCH. Stated to be weaker than GWM? I'd like to know where.

During the palm clash at Luk Family Manor. Gwok Jing had the edge in techniques while the Golden Wheel Monk had the edge in raw inner power. I believe the discrepancy was a small one, however.

[Ken Tran]

Yes, and isn't it something that the 9 Yum Jen Ging can elevate a 33-year old's inner power to the level of a 60-something Great's?

YG can do the same feat to the level of a 90-something Great's without the help of 9 Yin. I would take whatever he was practicing over 9 Yin in a heart beat.

[ChronoReverse]

During the palm clash at Luk Family Manor. Gwok Jing had the edge in techniques while the Golden Wheel Monk had the edge in raw inner power. I believe the discrepancy was a small one, however.

And that still tells us nothing about what GJ was capable of at the end of ROCH


Too bad about that. GJ always gets to show off when he fights. I mean, this guy fights off almost a hundred decent fighters who were using an extremely powerful formation even while he was distracted by thoughts of what was happening and YG being missing (sorry, couldn't help myself throwing that one in) and doing his best not to injure anyone.

Frankly, for someone facing up a threat like that, GJ sure was playing around. I mean, he actually had time to think (paraphrased), "Damn! Looks like I'm not badassed enough to shatter all these guys' swords at once"

YG can do the same feat to the level of a 90-something Great's without the help of 9 Yin. I would take what he was practicing over 9 Yin in a heart beat.

He also ate a lifetime's supply's worth of Snake Bladders. These snake bladders also boosted the Divine Condor to a level where only a Great could beat it.

And frankly, while his power was extremely fierce, a 9 Yin fighter who had equal internal energy would last longer simply because energy is redirected and retracted more cleanly due to 9 Yin's orthodox methods yielding purer internal energy.

[Ken Cheng]

YG can do the same feat to the level of a 90-something Great's without the help of 9 Yin.

But, with the help of:

1. Ha Mo Gung

2. Icy Bed in Ancient Tomb

3. Jade Maiden Manual

4. Cheun Jen Sect inner power methodologies

5. *some* limited 9 Yum Jen Ging

6. direct inner power boost from East Heretic Wong Yerk See

7. snake organs courtesy of the Divine Condor

8. training with the Heavy Iron Sword

An odds and ends package whose aggregate effect is about the same as training with the full 9 Yum Jen Ging.

[Ken Cheng]

Hey, I just realized that we've gotten off the topic of rescuing Gwok Seung from the tower.

Let me branch some of these off to the Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor megathread.

[Ken Tran]

We have absolutely no information about the level GJ achieved by the end of ROCH. Stated to be weaker than GWM? I'd like to know where.

GJ internal power was equal to OYF whose internal power was equal to the Greats and GWM. Half a decade later, GJ intenal power was lesser than GWM. So instead of progressing, GJ internal power regressed. Furthermore, 9 Yin is overated so please book it. If it wasn't, then half a decade later GJ's internal power shouldn't have been lesser than GWM.

Now, GWM power doubled while GJ probable increase at the rate aforementioned; therefore, GJ was weaker than GWM at the end of ROCH.

[PJ]

GJ internal power was on par with OYF when they clashed at the beginning of ROCH, yet several years of training 9 Yin later, GJ internal power was stated to be lesser than GWM.

9 Yin is overated.

Book it!

If 9 Yin seems overrated in ROCH, it is because Jin Yong downplayed this art in order to make his new protagonist more powerful (or should I say equally powerful compared to the previous 9 Yin-practicing protagonist). A reader, Temujin I think, has previously made a comment about this and I fully agree with his view.

Now, regarding GWM vs Guo Jing pre-16 years, I have come to the conclusion that Golden Wheel Monk's internal energy is not necessarily greater than Guo Jing's. According to the text, it only says that GWM's physical strength is higher, and that his internal energy is very good. But how good in this case? Better than Guo Jing's? I don't think so, because it was explicitly stated that Golden Wheel Monk's internal energy is NOT better than that of Hong Qigong or Ouyang Feng:

洪七公、欧阳锋二人的内力均不在金轮法王之下，二人合力，自是胜了他师父一倍。

And we have all the reasons in the world to believe that Guo Jing cannot be weaker than Hong Qigong, only better:

中原群雄大半知道郭靖武功惊人，又当盛年，只怕已算得当世第一，此时纵然是洪七公也未必能强过 他去

Most people in the central plains know that Guo Jing's martial arts, coupled with his prime age, most likely establish him as the BEST MARTIAL ARTIST IN THE WORLD AT THAT TIME. Even his master Hong Qigong would unlikely be able to beat him.

Which effectively means that Guo Jing's internal foundation is at least comparable to that of Golden Wheel Monk at that time.

Now, in my opinion, judging from Guo Jing's previous rapid increase of power from LOCH to ROCH, I do think he should have surpassed the other Greats by now. Some time later, he did demonstrate that he is capable of taking on Golden Wheel Monk + 3 warriors, albeit with great difficulty.

Conclusion: firstly, Guo Jing's internal energy is NOT less than that of Golden Wheel Monk when they first met. secondly, when Guo Jing fought the Golden Wheel Monk + 3 warriors, Guo Jing was the superior fighter.

[ChronoReverse]

That's it, discussion with this one (Ken Tran) is an exercise in futility.

[Ken Cheng]

Half a decade later, GJ intenal power was lesser than GWM. So instead of progressing, GJ internal power regressed.

Inner power doesn't work that way. It's not like musculature, where if you don't use it you lose it. The only way to lose inner power is to get it extracted via a martial art such as Bak Ming Sun Gung or to destroy it deliberately or through fire deviations. There's no record of Gwok Jing having any of these experiences during ROCH, so how he'd "lose" inner power is beyond me.

[PJ]

Nonetheless, the descriptions of how Sad Palms came out clearly show that the prime unpredictabilty GWM had trouble with was the external portion since YG actually landed blows.

I think it's more complicated than that. For Sad Palm, the intention makes the arm work, and the arm makes the palm work. The power stems from the intention, which is controlled by the mood. So, if Yang Guo is in the right mood, he will unleash awesome unexpected power. Otherwise, he will unleash normal expected power.

[Ken Tran]

That's it, discussion with this one (Ken Tran) is an exercise in futility.

Actually I am doing this to force myself to write and hopefully by doing so, I can improve my English. I aint a YG's homer. The reason I dislike GJ is because a lot of people here like him. No sh*t GJ is greater than YG.

[Ken Cheng]

Actually I am doing this to force myself to write and hopefully by doing so, I can improve my English. I aint a YG's homer.

Well, you can start by not writing "ain't" anymore. That's definitely not standard grammar.

[ChronoReverse]

I think it's more complicated than that. For Sad Palm, the intention makes the arm work, and the arm makes the palm work. The power stems from the intention, which is controlled by the mood. So, if Yang Guo is in the right mood, he will unleash awesome unexpected power. Otherwise, he will unleash normal expected power.

Any blow from any Great to another Great is a severe injury if it's a direct hit.


But YG was unable to land such a blow on GWM before his mood took a downturn. Then his Sad Palm's true potential was unleashed and he landed a blow on GWM.

It doesn't take away from Sad Palm that it has equivalent striking power to HL18P AND has unpredictability. Nonetheless, it was the unpredictability portion the truly confounded GWM.

It also appears that the mood of the practicioner increases the unpredictability of Sad Palm with greater sadness.



BTW. I like GJ. I openly admit it. But I also like YG. I have no real problems with his character and even admire some of his traits.

This does not bear on my arguments.

[Ken Tran]

Well, you can start by not writing "ain't" anymore. That's definitely not standard grammar.

Thanks for tearing up my grammatical mistake.

[Ken Cheng]

Just so we don't derail this classic thread for really off-topic discussion, any further questions regarding writing/grammar can be asked at our Academia Forum.