Flicking stones or 1YZ

[linghuchong]

We cant say that how XZ threw some stones under TSLYZ is the "same" as flicking stones.

As superboy said, anyone with high enough internal energy can probably flick stones, but *not* as effective, fast and unique as the still flicking stones.

[Xiao Feng]

Originally posted by superboy
NO NO NO.....
I must being you back too the right path.

There are no right or wrong paths, only the dark side of the force

[Ren Wo Xing]

HYS did -not- beat the 'power' of the Sad Palms; he broke the palm, which is different.

[Noodles]

I think neutralizing the power of the sad palms is a better way to describe what HYS did; broke the palms sounds like as if he defeated it.

As to whether Yang Guo was trying or not; he was. He was thinking if he doesn't use his full power, he won't be able to lure Huang Yao Shi into using the palm skill that the Divine Nun of the Southern Sea taught him.

[CC]

Originally posted by linghuchong
We cant say that how XX threw some stones under TSLYZ is the "same" as flicking stones.

As superboy said, anyone with high enough internal energy can probably flick stones, but *not* as effective, fast and unique as the still flicking stones.

Quite true. Maybe Tan Zhi Shen Tong converts like 99% of the energy used into kinetic power and just throwing out stones with high internal power wastes 50% energy of something like that.

However, in DGSD, Elder Xuan Du (which is nowhere near the top rank or 2nd rank of fighters) with his Nian Hua Zhi (Petal Massage Finger) was able to flick pure chi out in rapid succession too. Not to mention Xu Zhu and Jiu Mo Zhi.

[minutemanwayne]

Eh I thought Xu Zhu threw acorns and killed people with it. He threw rocks in the adaptations.

[Whsie]

I personally choose 1 Yang Zhi. 1 Yang Zhi is probably more stronger but also more tiring than DZST. In ROCH when Cho Chu Zi said that the world's strongest zhi li is 1 Deng who uses 1 Yang Zhi. So technically, 1 Yang Zhi>DZST. But then again, Yi Deng concentrates on 1 Yang Zhi, while HYS has a ton of martial arts to pratice like Falling Sword Palm.

[Black Night Sea]

Eh I thought Xu Zhu threw acorns and killed people with it. He threw rocks in the adaptations.

Throwing acorns and killing people is probably a feat that mediocre fighters in wuxia can do. Throwing pine-cones (do you know how soft these things are?) and killing 4 in 1 throw as well as creating cavities the size of hen's eggs on their foreheads is another feat itself. Not to mention Xuzhu's stage at utilising internal energy then is like a baby learning how to walk.

[kyss of the sword]

this are points from the translations, yiyang zhi is the no.1 finger technique. DZST is on par with it in force. and DZST is also a sealing technique. YG used it to attack GSZ's accupoints. YYZ is deep and solem and mysterious in it's movements. it can make long distance attacks just as well as DZST, DZST can flick chi even without stones, but it can send stones out futher the the three(five) zhang limit of LDA. HYS's DZST and jade flute swordplay complement each other to increase their force, both attack the accupoints.

at the beginning of HSDS, one of the three monks from west shaolin used a flicking skill to break guo xiang's sword. guo xiang thought, even through it was not as refined as her grandfather's skill(HYS's DZST), it was powerful and impressive.

[duguxiaojing]

I personally choose 1 Yang Zhi. 1 Yang Zhi is probably more stronger but also more tiring than DZST. In ROCH when Cho Chu Zi said that the world's strongest zhi li is 1 Deng who uses 1 Yang Zhi. So technically, 1 Yang Zhi>DZST. But then again, Yi Deng concentrates on 1 Yang Zhi, while HYS has a ton of martial arts to pratice like Falling Sword Palm.

Although its true that QCZ agreed when Gj answered that 1deng's 1YZ is supreme in terms of finger martial arts i think you have to look at the context of the situation. Gj was impressed with the writing that LCY left in the stone. Gj did not think it was possible for a human to leave writing into stone with a finger skill . QCZ asked him who possed the most powerful finger martial arts and Gj replied of course it is 1deng's 1YZ. I dont think he would have said HYS because DZST regquires the person to flick their finger to release chi. So of course HYS would not be able to write on anything using that technique.

A couple of other situations I can think of that show DZST=1YZ roughly is when Yg used it against WST. When Yg used DZST against his 1YZ it was stated that Yg could not compare because 1. either his inner power was not as strong as WST or 2. WST had years of practice while Yg just recently required his skill. The word used was Gong Lik IIRC, im not sure if thats overall practice or inner power. Either way
it was not stated that DZST was inferior, it was Yg who was inferior to WST (at the time in terms of finger skills and proboally overall martial arts). Also in the same paragraph it was stated that both 1YZ and DZST were famed through out the martial world and that both had their good points.

Also IIRC when 1deng poked Yg's sword away with his finger it reminded Yg of island master wong's DZST, and it was stated that no third person in the present world could compare.

Plus throw in the fact that HYS's DZST could take on Yg's overbearing Sad Palms and shock GWM with it's power, I doubt that its any weaker then 1YZ.

[Whsie]

Technique wise, DZST, but the way the practiners use it, Yi Deng is no doubt the best though. Probably because HYS has so many other kung fu to practice.

[heats]

i tink tt shaolin has another set of zhi fa ( 指法 ) that is comparable with yi yang zhi. This set of zhi fa only appeared in lu ding zi. It is called yi zhi tan 一指禅 . It was when WXB was in shaolin. The monk cheng guan ( 澄观 ) mastered it. However, its very difficult to learn and it takes like close to 30 yrs to master cause u need to learn yijinjing ( 易筋 ) to a high level as well.

Below would be cheng guan executing the move
[澄观屈指弹出，嗤的一声，一股劲气激射出去，地下一张落叶飘了起来]

[PJ]

To resurrect an old but interesting post:

i tink tt shaolin has another set of zhi fa ( 指法 ) that is comparable with yi yang zhi. This set of zhi fa only appeared in lu ding zi. It is called yi zhi tan 一指禅 . It was when WXB was in shaolin. The monk cheng guan ( 澄观 ) mastered it. However, its very difficult to learn and it takes like close to 30 yrs to master cause u need to learn yijinjing ( 易筋 ) to a high level as well.

Below would be cheng guan executing the move
[澄观屈指弹出，嗤的一声，一股劲气激射出去，地下一张落叶飘了起来]

It's interesting that Zen Master Chengguan/Dengguan (there are two ways to pronounce his name) could be the 3rd fastest learner of Solitary Zen Finger (Yizhi Chan), even though his internal cultivation level is pathetic (he estimated himself to be around the 70th highest internal cultivator in Shaolin history). It seems like a lot of Shaolin techniques can be mastered independent of internal energy, that's why a sub-Great monk like Kongwen can master 11 or 12 Supreme Arts of Shaolin, while his internal energy level was not great. Whereas, supreme techniques like XL18Z and 6MSJ cannot be mastered without supreme internal energy. I think that suggests 72 Supreme Arts of Shaolin, individually, are not as advanced as XL18Z or 6MSJ.

[CC]

To resurrect an old but interesting post:



It's interesting that Zen Master Chengguan/Dengguan (there are two ways to pronounce his name) could be the 3rd fastest learner of Solitary Zen Finger (Yizhi Chan), even though his internal cultivation level is pathetic (he estimated himself to be around the 70th highest internal cultivator in Shaolin history). It seems like a lot of Shaolin techniques can be mastered independent of internal energy, that's why a sub-Great monk like Kongwen can master 11 or 12 Supreme Arts of Shaolin, while his internal energy level was not great. Whereas, supreme techniques like XL18Z and 6MSJ cannot be mastered without supreme internal energy. I think that suggests 72 Supreme Arts of Shaolin, individually, are not as advanced as XL18Z or 6MSJ.

I suppose that is a case to be made that the 72 Arts or at least the Shaolin Monks understanding of the 72 arts degraded with time.

From Song to Qing, the 72 arts existed but even in the Song period, the 72 arts were elite enough that Supreme exponents like old Xiao and Murong actively seeked them out. For them to have retained all that power from Song to Qing, that means that either they were leagues ahead of other Qing Era arts or that martial arts in general did not degrade much from the Song to Qing timeline.

And then of course there is the famous narrator quotes from DGSD that the 72 arts are _limitless_ and from HSDS that top Shaolin and 9 Yang cultivation are equal.

Possibly, Kongwen did not master those arts to the extreme levels (like that pre-DGSD monk who crippled himself).

[resident:alien]

I would choose 1YZ just for the healing aspects and as a stepping stone to 6MSJ. . .

[PJ]

I suppose that is a case to be made that the 72 Arts or at least the Shaolin Monks understanding of the 72 arts degraded with time.

From Song to Qing, the 72 arts existed but even in the Song period, the 72 arts were elite enough that Supreme exponents like old Xiao and Murong actively seeked them out. For them to have retained all that power from Song to Qing, that means that either they were leagues ahead of other Qing Era arts or that martial arts in general did not degrade much from the Song to Qing timeline.

In Early to Mid Qing dynasty, the martial arts still seemed formidable, with Chengguan almost breaking the all-time record for fast learning, Chen Jinnan being able to freeze blood, and people in A Deadly Secret being able to launch LDAs and resurrect the dead! In late Qing, I guess the martial arts quality tumbled, with greatly reduced display of great feats.

It's reasonable to assume that Shaolin MA deteriorate somewhat between Song to early Qing. But it's unmistakable that Shaolin MA seem to have less barrier for learning than XL18Z, 6MSJ, Xiaoyao Pai arts, and other advanced arts. A monk like Xuandu can be known as a master of an art (Flower Massaging Finger) even when he pretty much sucks at it (compared to a Great-level fighter). If somebody with his qualification (like Shi Huolong) tried to learn XL18Z, I doubt they would be so well-known for the art (especially after being paralyzed due to insufficient internal energy!).

And then of course there is the famous narrator quotes from DGSD that the 72 arts are _limitless_ and from HSDS that top Shaolin and 9 Yang cultivation are equal.

True that Prajna Palm can be amazing when a high level has been reached, but it implies that it can be mastered to just a very low level as well, kinda like a "one size fits all" martial art. This means the requirements for learning Prajna Palm is smaller than the (internal energy) requirements for XL18Z. Kinda like the minimal requirements for learning Dugu 9 Swords, vs the more advanced requirements for picking up Heavy Iron Sword.

Possibly, Kongwen did not master those arts to the extreme levels (like that pre-DGSD monk who crippled himself).

Personally, I think that Kongwen and Fangzheng and Xuanci and all the others who mastered multiple instances of Shaolin Supreme Arts --> they mastered the essence of the technique, but they cannot execute Great feats because their internal energy have not reached Great-level yet.

After some more thinking, I retract my statement about Shaolin MA being inferior to XL18Z et al based on the minimum requirements factor. But it is true that Shaolin MA can be executed at very low levels, whereas something fancy like 6MSJ or Shengsi Fu can only be unleashed at very powerful levels.

[CC]

I have always been bugged and rather annoyed by this Shi Huolong getting crippled due to learning 12/18 of XL18Z.

In isolation, there is nothing wrong. You bite more than you can chew, you fire deviate. Standard wuxia rules.

But if it was solely lack of inner energy which caused him to fire deviate, then :

1. Young teenage GJ with only 2 years of QZ training had more inner energy than SHL. SHL was about equal to a XM elder. So he wasn't that crappy.

2. Wang Jiantong pre-DGSD already had more energy then SHL. Pre-DGSD Wang should be no stronger then those entire bunch of Xuan monks. So Xuandu, Xuannan, Xuanku, Xuanwatizname should be able to learn the full set of XLZ as well. Which makes the barrier for XLZ not _that_ high.

3. Why is learning 12 palms different from 1*? You don't execute 12 at the same time? If you switch on 12 bulbs simultaneously, you blow the fuse, but if you can turn on one safely, then you should be able to turn on any of the 12. The beggar elder from LOCH learnt part of XL18Z from H7G without problems.

*Compare it to those advanced Xiao Yao arts. You couldn't even learn 1 stance without dying if you did not have the required base.

[PJ]

Ah yes, CRIPPLED BEGGAR's UNION CHIEF Shi Huolong always makes a fascinating discussion.

Apparently, Shi Huolong FORCED himself to learn the full set of XL18Z, that's why he got paralyzed. If he would have just stopped learning at the 12th palm, perhaps he would have been fine. He could still continue to refine his current learnings, but not press for more advancement.

[CFT]

GJ learnt with guidance, we don't know about the quality of transmission to SHL.

[jin_yong_fan]

i think the 1yz is more unique. but i would prefer the flicking stones. b/c it is mentioned that w/ 1yz if u use it 4 2 long u need a long period of time 2 accumulate ur internal energy bak. but u dont need to accumulate ur energy again w/ the flicking stones.