Deun Jing Tsun's four guardsmen.

[Ken Cheng]

Among the more interesting non-focal characters in DGSD were Deun Jing Tsun's four guardsmen. These four fellows had quite a bit of face time in DGSD, and were fairly good non-elite martial artists as well as likable gentlemen overall (somewhat reminiscent of the Mo Dong 7 Heroes in HSDS).

But several things:

What were their full names?

I can only identify them as:

1. "Chu," armed with a brush pen. Likely ancestor of Chu Tze Lau (LOCH, ROCH) and Chu Chang Ling (HSDS).

2. Another "Chu," armed with a sword. Killed by Deun Yin Hing.

3. Koo, armed with a hatchet. A woodsman?

4. Fu, armed with a hoe. Previously employed in a field that required expert skill in digging tunnels.

Were these four men bodyguards of Deun Jing Tsun only, with King Deun Jing Ming having a separate set of four bodyguards/advisors?

How did the four of them rank compared to each other, in terms of martial arts skill and seniority/age?

What was their actual martial arts level? My impression is that none of them was capable of defeating the weaker three Great Evils one-on-one, but two of them could overwhelm any Great Evil other than Deun Yin Hing. I guess that would put them slightly behind not only the junior Evils, but also Mo Yung F'uk's men and the Beggar's Union Elders?

[Ren Wo Xing]

1) Chu Wanli - Iron staff.
2) Gu Ducheng- Broad axe
3) Fu Sigui - Copper cudgel.
4) Zhu Danchen - Twin judge pens.

They are usually called out by Jinyong in the following order, and it seems their relative positions/martial arts abilities are also ranked in this order.

Gu Ducheng+Zhu Danchen were inferior to Ye Erniang by herself; Fu Sigui+Chu Wanli were roughly on par with the Divine Crocodile by himself, although Ye Erniang felt that Chu Wanli's martial arts abilities was only a notch beneath her own (an overestimation, or a decently sized notch); however, she wasn't afraid of him 1v1 at all. Zhu Danchen by himself was unable to handle Yun Zhonghe, who supposedly had much stronger internal energy. However, Chu Wanli+Gu Ducheng was enough to send Yun Zhonghe running.

So all in all, even combined, they are at best on par with the two tougher evils (#2 and #3); the two strongest guardians could send Yun Zhonghe fleeing, but due to his superior qinggong abilities, couldn't actually subdue/capture him.

[Ken Cheng]

1) Chu Wanli - Iron staff.
2) Gu Ducheng- Broad axe
3) Fu Sigui - Copper cudgel.
4) Zhu Danchen - Twin judge pens.

They are usually called out by Jinyong in the following order, and it seems their relative positions/martial arts abilities are also ranked in this order.

Gu Ducheng+Zhu Danchen were inferior to Ye Erniang by herself; Fu Sigui+Chu Wanli were roughly on par with the Divine Crocodile by himself, although Ye Erniang felt that Chu Wanli's martial arts abilities was only a notch beneath her own (an overestimation, or a decently sized notch); however, she wasn't afraid of him 1v1 at all. Zhu Danchen by himself was unable to handle Yun Zhonghe, who supposedly had much stronger internal energy. However, Chu Wanli+Gu Ducheng was enough to send Yun Zhonghe running.

Seems a little all-over-the-place, but generally, none of them was capable of soloing a junior Great Evil, although any two of them could give an Evil at least a run for his/her money.

"Chu" and "Zhu" - in Cantonese pronunciation, it all sounds the same, and in the old Wade-Giles Romanization, it'd likely all come out as "Chu" too. How are their surnames distinguished?

[Ren Wo Xing]

Seems a little all-over-the-place, but generally, none of them was capable of soloing a junior Great Evil, although any two of them could give an Evil at least a run for his/her money.

"Chu" and "Zhu" - in Cantonese pronunciation, it all sounds the same, and in the old Wide-Giles Romanization, it'd likely all come out as "Chu" too. How are their surnames distinguished?

褚万里 - Chu Wanli
朱丹臣- Zhu Danchen

'Chu', third tone.
'Zhu', first tone, as in 'vermillion.'

And yes, that's essentially right. Although of course, the top evil, Duan Yanqing, would wtfpwn their asses.

[Ken Cheng]

褚万里 - Chu Wanli
朱丹臣- Zhu Danchen

'Chu', third tone.
'Zhu', first tone, as in 'vermillion.'

I'm surprised that neither of them was "Chu" as in "pearl." I thought at least one of them would be.

Chu Dan San was the ancestor of Chu Tze Lau and Chu Chang Ling, no? He used the same weapon that Chu Tze Lau did in LOCH and ROCH.

And yes, that's essentially right. Although of course, the top evil, Duan Yanqing, would wtfpwn their asses.

And yet, six Deun Yin Hings would be needed to match one Kiu Fung.

And who knows how many Kiu Fungs (at least three) would be needed to match Hui Juk?

Then there's the Janitor Monk...

The distances in levels among DGSD martial artists is staggering. Even a guy like Wan Chung Hok was much better than most of wulin, but look at how far below the Elites he is.

[tape]

I think that is the case in a lot of his novels.

Even in LOCH, the 7 Freaks who were very respectable martial artists who could be described as strong and able fighters took all seven of them to be less than equal to Qiu Chuji in terms of pure martial artists. Then it takes all seven Quan Zhen people using a highly specialized formation to be equal to a great. The seven of them not in formation would be brutalized, and it seems upwards of 10-12+ minimum would be needed to give any Great a fight without the Big Dipper Formation. And these are Quan Zhen people who are pretty much directly under the Greats minus Guo Jing. (I consider Zhao and Qiu to be Greats pretty much)

Same as in ROCH. The Mongol mercenaries are all individually stronger than the Quan Zhen people, which puts them right under the Greats, and they get toyed around with also. The level gap is huge between the real elites and the sub elites.

[yittz]

Can we add DZM's 4 advisors into this discussion?

Gao Sheng Tai was the one wielding the iron flute (that he can heat up). He was mildly better than 2nd/3rd.

Ba Tian Shi? was better than 4th, he was also famous for his lightness kungfu and is often used as a messenger in the novel.

The other 2 were Hua Che Gen, famous for his tunnel digging (rescued DY and XF separate occasions); and Fan Hua? who's an strategic advisor. Both their kungfu are similar to Ba Tian Shi I think.

It really surprised me how those 4 + DZC and his 4 henchman are no match for the 4 evil. Guess, DYQ is just that much above the rest. Meaning DYQ>DZC+1 advisor+4henchmen (3 evil+1 evil+2 evil, ie > 6 evils). DYQ can take out the rest of the evils even if they cloned themselves.

[Ken Cheng]

Can we add DZM's 4 advisors into this discussion?

Gao Sheng Tai was the one wielding the iron flute (that he can heat up). He was mildly better than 2nd/3rd.

Ba Tian Shi? was better than 4th, he was also famous for his lightness kungfu and is often used as a messenger in the novel.

The other 2 were Hua Che Gen, famous for his tunnel digging (rescued DY and XF separate occasions); and Fan Hua? who's an strategic advisor. Both their kungfu are similar to Ba Tian Shi I think.

Another one of the limitations (probably for budgeting reasons) of DGSD '81 is that the four Imperial Guardsmen of King Deun Jing Ming and the four personal guardsmen of Prince Deun Jing Ming were basically collapsed from eight separate individuals into just four. They were basically Deun Jing Tsun's men, but with a few aspects (such as Hua's digging skill being transferred to Fu's character) of the king's four Imperial Guardsmen mixed in.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Keep in mind that Duan Yanqing knocked down the Croc with three punches and two kicks. He is definitely far, far above them.

Btw, Ken, the four yittz mentioned were not mere imperial guardsmen; Gao Shengtai was a marquis, and Ba Tianshi, Hua Hegen, and Fan Hua were the three dukes of Dali who served as prime ministers.

[yittz]

Another one of the limitations (probably for budgeting reasons) of DGSD '81 is that the four Imperial Guardsmen of King Deun Jing Ming and the four personal guardsmen of Prince Deun Jing Ming were basically collapsed from eight separate individuals into just four. They were basically Deun Jing Tsun's men, but with a few aspects (such as Hua's digging skill being transferred to Fu's character) of the king's four Imperial Guardsmen mixed in.

Yep I really hope one day they include them all in a series (although Gao Sheng Tai is in some series). Other ones they always miss are MRF's stronger 2 henchmen. Sure Feng and Bao get the most screen time, but the other two do show that not all MRF's henchmen are fools.

Keep in mind that Duan Yanqing knocked down the Croc with three punches and two kicks. He is definitely far, far above them.

Btw, Ken, the four yittz mentioned were not mere imperial guardsmen; Gao Shengtai was a marquis, and Ba Tianshi, Hua Hegen, and Fan Hua were the three dukes of Dali who served as prime ministers.

Thanks. So it's he not che. It's pretty impressive that Dali has a tradition of important staff also being well trained in martial arts. I'd imagine Gao Shengtai not being that much weaker than DZC.

[shadow8899]

I'm surprised that neither of them was "Chu" as in "pearl." I thought at least one of them would be.

Chu Dan San was the ancestor of Chu Tze Lau and Chu Chang Ling, no? He used the same weapon that Chu Tze Lau did in LOCH and ROCH.

Chu 珠 as in pearl is not a last name. It sounds the same as 朱 which is also the last name of Zhu Yuan Zhang, the founder of the Ming Dynasty.

[Ken Cheng]

Yep I really hope one day they include them all in a series (although Gao Sheng Tai is in some series). Other ones they always miss are MRF's stronger 2 henchmen. Sure Feng and Bao get the most screen time, but the other two do show that not all MRF's henchmen are fools.

The other two Mo Yung Family henchmen showed up in DGSD '81, but were not shown to be any stronger than Fung and Pau.