大唐双龙传 [Da Tang Shuang Long Zhuan] by Huang Yi

[Patudo]

You're jesting with your commissar speech ?

I believe it deplorable rhetoric to generalise, summarily including everyone… And I find that in "foxs translation makes the reader feels like they witnessing the battle with their own eyes."

I'm certain not all witnesses would concur.

I remember :


Are you not putting too much pressure on foxs with your enthusiasm ? How will anyone other than sagely akolaw dare to give constructive feedback ?

Incidentally, speaking of battle, does Red Cliff gild the lily ?

I haven't commented in literally years - but the post above has compelled me to suggest to the poster-surnamed-Xu...

...some might find labelling a well meaning post "commissar speech", with all its related unpleasant overtones - especially given that the Chinese expression cited is a well known and oft heard phrase - pretty deplorable in its own right. It may be that "not all witnesses would concur" that Huang Yi, or any other writer for that matter, has the power to adequately describe hand to hand battle of that nature. But I'm damn sure that a whopping majority of readers of this thread would be very glad if you could devote your energies to "helping" entertainment-industry types you "esteem" (your post #5695 earlier in this thread) and let the rest of us enjoy this most entertaining translation in peace.

Rant over. I apologise to other readers if this has been too direct. I'd like to place on record my thanks to foxs for delivering what is in my opinion the most interesting translation on this forum - I am sufficiently invested to have resisted the temptation to Wikiread more about the era for fear of spooling the suspense - and for all his previous efforts.

[徐中銳]

I'll let readers digest your so-called "rant" for a bit—before I really reply.

I haven't commented in literally years - but the post above has compelled me to suggest to the poster-surnamed-Xu...


...some might find labelling a well meaning post "commissar speech", with all its related unpleasant overtones - especially given that the Chinese expression cited is a well known and oft heard phrase - pretty deplorable in its own right. It may be that "not all witnesses would concur" that Huang Yi, or any other writer for that matter, has the power to adequately describe hand to hand battle of that nature. But I'm damn sure that a whopping majority of readers of this thread would be very glad if you could devote your energies to "helping" entertainment-industry types you "esteem" (your post #5695 earlier in this thread) and let the rest of us enjoy this most entertaining translation in peace.


Rant over. I apologise to other readers if this has been too direct. I'd like to place on record my thanks to foxs for delivering what is in my opinion the most interesting translation on this forum - I am sufficiently invested to have resisted the temptation to Wikiread more about the era for fear of spooling the suspense - and for all his previous efforts.

And, recently, I happen upon hearing a singer named 方皓玟 :


It'd be good if listeners could pay her some attention. Yes, she's one of the "entertainment-industry types" I esteem (especially due to her lyric writing proficiency).

[wangxiaohu]

You're jesting with your commissar speech ?

I believe it deplorable rhetoric to generalise, summarily including everyone… And I find that in "foxs translation makes the reader feels like they witnessing the battle with their own eyes."

I'm certain not all witnesses would concur.

I remember :


Are you not putting too much pressure on foxs with your enthusiasm ? How will anyone other than sagely akolaw dare to give constructive feedback ?

Well, I don't really understand what you're talking about, but I'm sure the we, the reader, are entitled to our own opinion.
And of course, we can choose to being enthusiast, or not. If being enthusiast is wrong in your opinion, is being apathetic right?
Foxs has stated that he's going to ignore the fact that I'm waiting, and I'm fine with it.

[HPC7595]

Thanks foxs

[徐中銳]

Is writing ultimately about precision ?

I'm sure the we, the reader, are entitled to our own opinion.

Your above sentence and the one I had previously quoted are misleading. You are trying to say "I, as all readers, am entitled to my own opinion" ? And "foxs translation makes [me feel] like [I'm] witnessing the battle with [my] own eyes" ?

If you don't understand the difference, I won't make you.

Well, I don't really understand what you're talking about…

I talked about your enthusiasm, I didn't call you an enthusiast.

And of course, we can choose to being enthusiast, or not. If being enthusiast is wrong in your opinion, is being apathetic right?

Whether your "being apathetic" would be "right" or better, I can be sure if you give it a try.

[wangxiaohu]

Suddenly remember BaoButong, don't know why...

[徐中銳]

If you're dreaming yourself as 慕容復, I'm the 段延慶……

Suddenly remember BaoButong, don't know why...

[foxs]

Ysabel, Jaya, HPC, you are welcome. Xiaohu, thanks Paona, thanks and you are welcome. Xu Xiong, whoa … I agree with Patudo in this regard: why be so negative? I understand that you disagree with Xiaohu, and trust me, I won’t take personal offense on that, but why can’t you let it go and enjoy the story like the rest of us? Akolaw, agree (you see, sometimes I disagree with even ‘sagely’ Akolaw, yet I don’t fight with him … )

---

The moment his murderous intent was flaring, the bitter battle, where he had to defend Jingling in the past, reappeared in his mind. The difference was that this time, attacking and defending roles had been easily reversed.

His troops responded in thunderous roar.

When darkness fell, Xu Ziling put the pomegranate wooden stick on his horseback. Standing in the dense forest, he and Xuan Yong kept a close watch over each and every move that the enemy made.

On the opposite bank, the Cao Army lighted more than a hundred torches in tight battle formation, while covertly building the pontoon bridges.

A bit worried, Xuan Yong said, “If Cao Yinglong relies on this confusion to have his men crossing the river and setup formation on this side of the river, based on our current military strength, I am afraid we are helpless to do anything to him.”

By this time, five out of eight pontoon bridges have already been completed, the cavalry was the first to take their horses crossing the river. The situation was more urgent.

Xu Ziling smiled and said, “Under normal circumstances, we are indeed helpless to do anything to him. But look closely at them; they all show hungry, exhausted and beleaguered look on their faces. As long as your eight trebuchets are doing their job to create confusion, for instance, destroying one of the pontoons, I guarantee that the enemy will break down and lose their will to fight, any formation they are creating will be useless.”

His confidence restored, Xuan Yong nodded and said, “I was indeed a bit worried about personal gains and losses. We are honing our strength for the big push, as well as trying to catch the enemy off guard with a surprise attack [idiom, from Sun Tzu’s ‘The Art of War’]. I know that the other side does not know about us, so we are really in an invincible position. Hey! How could Xu Ye, in such an urgent situation where war could happen any moment, still look so calm and composed?”

Xu Ziling replied indifferently, “As long as you are able to put life and death, success and failure, completely out of your mind, and able to have free spirit and comfortable thought, you will be able to completely bring out your full potential.”

Revealing a deference expression on his face, Xuan Yong spoke in low voice, “Xuan Yong receives benefit from your advice.”

Finally the eight pontoon bridges were completed, from beginning to end it took less than half a sichen. The number of men crossing the river increased dramatically; waves after waves of men were heading to the grassland on the western bank of River Zhang. Most men and horses were at the end of the limit of their strength; as soon as they crossed the river, they sat on the ground, no need to mention any will to fight.

“When should we attack?” Xuan Yong asked.

Xu Ziling’s pair of tiger-eyes suddenly lit up; he said, Cao Yinglong and Fang Jianding already crossed the river! Xiang Baxian [sic. It was Xiang Batian in Book 9 Chapter 7] will make Kou Zhong’s job a bit easier!”

And then he turned his head and shouted, “Light the torches!”

Behind him, the sound of battle drums and bugle horns immediately shook the heavens. From the eastern bank, loud battle cry and the whooshing noise of big rocks splitting the air also shook the heavens.

From the Ranch warriors’ point of view, everywhere on the mountaintops on the opposite bank were bright with several thousand torches, painting the riverbank, as well as the sky, blood red, so that the pontoon bridges, which were originally hidden in the dark, were completely exposed. The torchlight also revealed what seemed to be the flickering shadows of ten thousand horses and thousands of men.

Shang Xiuxun was greatly surprised, “How come there are so many men?”

Laughing involuntarily, Kou Zhong said, “Good kid! Unexpectedly he knew how to bluff; even I am intimidated by him.”

‘Boom!’

One big rock accurately hit a pontoon bridge, the more than a hundred men and horses on it were immediately overturned and fell into the water in such a sorry state.

At the same time, from both upstream and downstream, not far from the crossing, several hundred archers appeared, and mercilessly shot those who were falling to the water and were trying to swim to their direction.

The thieves on both sides of the river, as well as those who were still on the pontoon bridges, were thrown into confusion, and were trying to flee for their lives, yet they were trapped into a completely desperate strait.

‘Bang!’

The fireworks released from the opposite bank burst into greenish-white sparks high in the sky.

“Charge!” Kou Zhong shouted.

The Ranch Cavalry of five thousand men were divided into five units of one thousand men each, like five tornadoes sweeping through the enemy lines.

From about a dozen or so mountaintop jungles torchlight lighted the sky, raging flames spread wildly, so that the moon and the stars in the sky lost their splendor.

In the river and on the shores, dead bodies were everywhere.

Out of eight pontoon bridges, five have been destroyed. The killing was just the beginning.

All Shaoshuai Army and Ranch warriors wore yellow headbands; those without the yellow band were killed without mercy.

Xu Ziling and Xuan Yong, each leading five hundred men, rushed out of their respective hiding place and charged toward the enemy. The remaining several hundred men were spread out with the straw dummies, increasing the momentum of their attack. They also released powerful arrows to intercept any thief who happened to flee in their direction.

The thieves abandoned their horses and fled on foot to be able to run more easily.

Xu Ziling fought at the head of his troops. His state of mind has entered the out-of-the-ordinary ‘non-self’ boundary. His zhang-and-a-half long pomegranate stick displayed its matchless swift-and-fierce killing power to the fullest extent. It poked, swept, hacked, or struck, ao that the enemy, along with his weapon, would be thrown out and died on the spot, no one was able to prolong his remaining breath.

The thieves have turned into a sheet of loose sand; those who were able to run have run, those who were unable to escape could not even form any battle array; only small groups of three or four men were fighting desperately with their backs against each other for support.

It’s just that the thieves were indeed too numerous; over the years, they were accustomed to pass their days licking the blood from their blade, accustomed to see the wind and the waves, so that although they were hungry and trapped in difficulties, in this life-and-death crisis, they were still unyieldingly brave and were fighting desperately with everything they had.

At first Xu Ziling was able to identify Cao Yinglong and Fang Jianding, and was rushing over to kill them, who would have thought that thousands of enemies swarmed toward him from the shore? Before his eyes were dense shadows of people with flickering blades, naturally he could not see Cao Yinglong and Fang Jianding’s whereabouts.

‘Crack!’

A thief with exceptionally outstanding martial art skill met his stick with a spear. But after three exchanges, Xu Ziling flicked his wrist, the pomegranate stick pushed and pulled to create a gap, which he immediately exploited. With a thrust the thief’s chest shattered and he died.

However, with this slight delay, the soldiers to his left and right immediately bore the brunt of the enemy’s desperate offensive. Immediately seven or eight Shaoshuai soldiers fell to the ground. Clearly the battle was very intense.

Xu Ziling had no time to grieve for the dead and the wounded, all he knew was that he must vent his resentment to the enemies on four sides, eight directions. Once again the pomegranate stick flaunted its prowess; it rolled toward the enemy like the waves of the great river Yangtze, killing the enemy that they scattered in all directions.

As soon as anybody was within his pomegranate stick range, blood splashed and body flew, not a single one narrowly and luckily escaped.

Depending entirely on this powerful master’s leadership, the remaining four hundred or so Shaoshuai Army soldiers were able to break the enemy line into two sections, creating the most favorable situation for the other Shaoshuai Army unit under Xuan Yong’s leadership.

Arrows were still shot constantly from Shaoshuai Army’s entrenchment position toward the fleeing bandits, so that dead bodies continued to accumulate along the shore in total disorder.

One side was focused, while the other was in disunity.

Although the Cao Army was numerous, because the troops’ heart was in disorder, they quickly lost their number advantage. Cao Yinglong was unable to pull the wildly swelling water into a stream.

The thieves successfully crossed the river numbered approximately ten thousand men. When the ambush began, close to a thousand men plunged into the river, attempting to escape, but the Shaoshuai Army ambushing on both upstream and downstream mercilessly shot them with arrows.

It felt like the fierce fighting would never end.

Wherever they went, Xu Ziling and his men were like breaking dried twigs and pulling rotten weeds, so that the enemy left behind a mess dead bodies, everywhere they touched, it was frighteningly severed limb and blood; yet there were still countless enemies all around, so that Xu Ziling felt as if he was in an endless killing spree, as if he had fallen into an ant hole. As soon as his hand slowed down slightly, an enemy appeared in front of him, going all out, disregarding his own life, to counterattack. It was a fierce battle where either you die or I perish.

Suddenly the pressure was lightening up; turned out he had reached the riverbank. He saw the raging battle on the opposite bank was not less intense from the battle on this side.

Xu Ziling saw the enemy fleeing everywhere like a tide. His heart moved, he stuck the pomegranate stick into the ground, and then borrowing the power from the stick, he flew midair, while his tiger-eyes scanned the crowd.

He saw that the Shaoshuai Army under his leadership only had more than three hundred men left, while on the other side, Xuan Yong’s team was not much better. But they succeeded in defeating the opponent, so that no one dared to fight with them, and all he saw was fleeing enemies scattering in all directions.

A group of about a hundred enemies was running away, the leaders happened to be Cao Yinglong and Fang Jianding. Letting out a wild roar, Xu Ziling landed back to the ground, and led his men in full speed pursuit.

[徐中銳]

Well, with Xiaohu's frequent public displays of affection towards you, I'm testing whether it evolves to something more helpful for you. Usually, his form of flattering attention make you blush, pressured ?

Xu Xiong, whoa … I agree with Patudo in this regard: why be so negative? I understand that you disagree with Xiaohu, and trust me, I won’t take personal offense on that, but why can’t you let it go and enjoy the story like the rest of us?

Interestly, there's a line from John Keats, in his Isabella; or, The Pot of Basil, "Alas ! when passion is both meek and wild !"

I'm just Wil…

[Ysabelkid]

Thanks foxs

[wangxiaohu]

Thank you foxs.

'Frequent public display of affection' is superfluous, it seems that some degrees of jealousy is involved, perhaps?

[徐中銳]

Conversely, I'm happy to be the 陰 to your 陽 (or vice versa), i.e. disaffection is vital.

Your idolatry may effect others into non-questioning…

Shoot, I'll make time to say a little more. foxs himself declared many times that his translations are passion-projects done in his leisure time. And the first approximation is his use of a online translator site. Thus, these instalments we read are in fact second approximations ‽

Indeed, room should be left for either foxs (when he retires and have time) or someone else (with time) to fix a final approximation to what 黃易 literally wrote and meant.

There are better ways from you (other than your automatic platitudinal praise) to help foxs in completing this and other projects.

'Frequent public display of affection' is superfluous, it seems that some degrees of jealousy is involved, perhaps?

Really, you're not such a foil as to think this is absolutely about you and your love for foxs ?

It's all public feedback.

[HPC7595]

Thanks foxs

[Jayariyin]

Thanks, foxs.

[LuDongBin]

"Akolaw, I still don’t understand this ‘sai-ching’ business, since the definition you provided seems vague to me. But as you said, we’ll just enjoy it. I don’t care whatever you call it."

Foxs, in case you have the time, this link gives an early study of the genre - novel of manners:
https://archive.org/details/riseofnovelofman00morgrich

(But I have slight misgivings to place Golden Lotus on the same footing as A Dream of the Red Chamber aka Story of the Stone ...)

Slowly catching up. Thks foxs.

[akolaw]

"Akolaw, I still don’t understand this ‘sai-ching’ business, since the definition you provided seems vague to me. But as you said, we’ll just enjoy it. I don’t care whatever you call it."

Foxs, in case you have the time, this link gives an early study of the genre - novel of manners:
https://archive.org/details/riseofnovelofman00morgrich

(But I have slight misgivings to place Golden Lotus on the same footing as A Dream of the Red Chamber aka Story of the Stone ...)

Slowly catching up. Thks foxs.

Both Golden Lotus and Story of the Stone are great, I love them all.

[wangxiaohu]

Both Golden Lotus and Story of the Stone are great, I love them all.

I know the reason you love Golden Lotus...

[徐中銳]

I haven't commented in literally years - but the post above has compelled me to suggest to the poster-surnamed-Xu...

...some might find labelling a well meaning post "commissar speech", with all its related unpleasant overtones - especially given that the Chinese expression cited is a well known and oft heard phrase - pretty deplorable in its own right. It may be that "not all witnesses would concur" that Huang Yi, or any other writer for that matter, has the power to adequately describe hand to hand battle of that nature. But I'm damn sure that a whopping majority of readers of this thread would be very glad if you could devote your energies to "helping" entertainment-industry types you "esteem" (your post #5695 earlier in this thread) and let the rest of us enjoy this most entertaining translation in peace.

Rant over. I apologise to other readers if this has been too direct. I'd like to place on record my thanks to foxs for delivering what is in my opinion the most interesting translation on this forum - I am sufficiently invested to have resisted the temptation to Wikiread more about the era for fear of spooling the suspense - and for all his previous efforts.

I won't shred all of your "rant" this time, only the last paragraph.

Why figuratively "apologise" when you felt you needed to be "direct" ? Either say something or don't.

Why not thank foxs, in an inventive way, more often ? For example, something from an instalment you especially enjoyed.

Do you think giving in to suspension is a virtue—by subjugating one's own ability to map out the road ahead ? Well, best wishes to the dividends when your investment matures.

[paonakata]

Paona, thanks and you are welcome. Xu Xiong, whoa … I agree with Patudo in this regard: why be so negative? I understand that you disagree with Xiaohu, and trust me, I won’t take personal offense on that, but why can’t you let it go and enjoy the story like the rest of us? Akolaw, agree (you see, sometimes I disagree with even ‘sagely’ Akolaw, yet I don’t fight with him … )

Foxs I love your coolheadedness, as Rudyard Kipling said in his poem If—

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;

My personal opinion is that there is some good to our community if Xu Xiong's provocative posts are able to galvanize our dormant members like Patudo into posting, as I haven't seen our thread this lively in a looong time.

For what it's worth, I also remember Xu Xiong mentioning some time ago in an earlier post in this thread that he is a senior in terms of age, and at least where I'm from, our seniors get a bit of special treatment, benefits, and forbearance.

I also remember Xu Xiong posting a long time ago encouraging our more passive readers to do more than just saying thank you and by participating more, so maybe all this is really just his albeit polarizing way of trying to get a reaction and a post out of more readers

[徐中銳]

I prefer Vladimir Nabokov, in his Lectures on Literature :
« In Search of Lost Time is an evocation, not a description of the past, as Arnaud Dandieu, a French critic, has remarked. This evocation of the past he continues, is made possible by bringing to light a number of exquisitely chosen moments which are a sequence of illustrations or images. Indeed, the whole enormous work, he concludes, is but an extended comparison revolving on the words as if—. »

Foxs I love your coolheadedness, as Rudyard Kipling said in his poem If—

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;

My personal opinion is that there is some good to our community if Xu Xiong's provocative posts are able to galvanize our dormant members like Patudo into posting, as I haven't seen our thread this lively in a looong time.

For what it's worth, I also remember Xu Xiong mentioning some time ago in an earlier post in this thread that he is a senior in terms of age, and at least where I'm from, our seniors are given special treatment, benefits, forbearance.

By the way, Proust's À la recherche du temps perdu « gained fame in English in translations by C. K. Scott Moncrieff and Terence Kilmartin as Remembrance of Things Past, but the title In Search of Lost Time, a literal rendering of the French, has gained usage since D. J. Enright adopted it for his revised translation published in 1992. »