Is there any other Jin Yong fan here (or anywhere) who also doesn't like SPW?

[Ken Cheng]

Jin Yong remains the world's most popular wuxia writer, and SMILING PROUD WANDERER is one of his favorite works among fans. So far, I haven't encountered another Jin Yong/wuxia fan who doesn't like SPW, and my dad has long said that it's his favorite wuxia story ever.

I, personally, have never liked SPW.

Maybe I'm just an odd duck. I've liked all of the other Jin Yong works to which I've been exposed (yes, even ROCH, even if I can't stand the protagonists), but I just can't seem to get into SPW. SPW is just...different, somehow, from DGSD and the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY stories that I enjoy. DUKE OF MT. DEER is different too, but the differences of DOMD *work* for me. The differences of SPW just don't, for whatever reason.

Some might argue that it's because I've only been exposed to bad adaptations of the story (TVB's 1984 adaptation with Chow Yun Fat, and that Sam Hui movie from the early 1990s)...that if I were to watch a better adaptation (TVB's 1997 remake with Jackie Lui) or read the novel (yeah, right), I'd like it better. They could argue that, but even with a better adaptation or the original novel itself, there are still a few hurdles I can't overcome with SPW:

1. Castration martial arts - I just find the whole idea disgusting, ridiculous, and repulsive.

2. Androgynous villains - They creep me out. Granted, we see androgynous villains in some Gu Long works that I like too, but those villains seldom dominate the story. They usually appear and briefly threaten the hero before being killed off. In SPW, the androgynous guys tend to be THE MAIN VILLAINS, which means you need to put up with them (one after the other) for episode after episode (or chapter after chapter).

3. DGSD, THE CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY, and even DOMD (remotely) fit in together as part of a greater Jin Yong mega-saga. SPW, though ostensibly in the same continuity with these other stories, just seems...an odd fit with the others, somehow. SPW sort of works with DGSD, but doesn't work well with THE CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY at all.

4. This is a minor complaint, but Ling Wu Chung spends too much of the story injured for my taste. I prefer my wuxia heroes to be up and fighting *most* of the time, not dying of one injury or another for most of the story.

All of these factors have turned me off to SPW, but I don't know if there's a single other wuxia or Jin Yong fan out there who shares these opinions.

[tape]

The castration thing is not really that played up in the novel; Dongfong Bubai appears for like half of a chapter, and neither Lin Pingzhi or Yue Buqun really act effeminate at all; if anything they just become emotionless murderers. It really is based on the readers mind -- the concept of sacrificing your manhood for powerful martial arts just sticks to our heads even though there are probably only a handful of sentences that mention anything about it.

I do agree that SPW feels a lot different from the other stories though since it actually explores wulin politics. LOCH/ROCH was more protagonist specific with wulin sprinkled in, and DGSD/HSDS was just a bunch of "good guys" banding up against any evil threat. SPW made wulin much more complicated and realistic. Some of the good sects from the start were clearly terrible people, while other good sects were actually decent, and there really are just a bunch of chaotic neutral people that wander around. I find that super realistic -- give a bunch of wandering vagrants the power to terrorize people (martial arts) and they are likely to be of the chaotic neutral type.

Linghu Chong being injured was okay because the scenes were at least interesting despite the hair pulling that occurs when he defeats expert after expert and you are sitting there screaming "THAT CAN'T HAPPEN!!". I think the rest of the novel was pretty boring after Yue Buqun wins the 5 Mountain leadership.

[Ken Cheng]

The castration thing is not really that played up in the novel; Dongfong Bubai appears for like half of a chapter, and neither Lin Pingzhi or Yue Buqun really act effeminate at all; if anything they just become emotionless murderers. It really is based on the readers mind -- the concept of sacrificing your manhood for powerful martial arts just sticks to our heads even though there are probably only a handful of sentences that mention anything about it.

Glad to hear it doesn't dominate the story, but the idea is so repulsive to me in of itself that I'm seriously inhibited from wanting to explore more.

I do agree that SPW feels a lot different from the other stories though since it actually explores wulin politics. LOCH/ROCH was more protagonist specific with wulin sprinkled in, and DGSD/HSDS was just a bunch of "good guys" banding up against any evil threat. SPW made wulin much more complicated and realistic. Some of the good sects from the start were clearly terrible people, while other good sects were actually decent, and there really are just a bunch of chaotic neutral people that wander around. I find that super realistic -- give a bunch of wandering vagrants the power to terrorize people (martial arts) and they are likely to be of the chaotic neutral type.

Usually, I'm quite interested in that stuff, but in SPW, it just didn't click for me...maybe because I was too distracted by the castration stuff.

Linghu Chong being injured was okay because the scenes were at least interesting despite the hair pulling that occurs when he defeats expert after expert and you are sitting there screaming "THAT CAN'T HAPPEN!!".

Heh. Yeah, as I've said before, the whole Dook Goo 9 Swords thing sounded lame to me.

[wkeej]

Compared to HSDS, LOCH and DGSD, my exposure to SPW is through the "Hui" movie and Singapore Mediacorp adaptation. SPW is rather interesting. It does talk about human nature and greed. People are willing to sacrifice himself/hersellf/others to reach the highest potential.

OT: If you ask "Is there any other Jin Yong fan here (or anywhere) who also doesn't like ROCH?", I will be one of them.

[Trien Chieu]

Jin Yong remains the world's most popular wuxia writer, and SMILING PROUD WANDERER is one of his favorite works among fans. So far, I haven't encountered another Jin Yong/wuxia fan who doesn't like SPW, and my dad has long said that it's his favorite wuxia story ever.

I, personally, have never liked SPW.

Count me in as one of them. I hate SPW. It's not what I am looking for in wuxia.

1. Castration martial arts - I just find the whole idea disgusting, ridiculous, and repulsive.

Yeah, I hate this. It's hard to believe that there are so many guys who are willing to cut off his dong. ****, what is great with being number one if you no longer have your dong.

2. Androgynous villains - They creep me out. Granted, we see androgynous villains in some Gu Long works that I like too, but those villains seldom dominate the story. They usually appear and briefly threaten the hero before being killed off. In SPW, the androgynous guys tend to be THE MAIN VILLAINS, which means you need to put up with them (one after the other) for episode after episode (or chapter after chapter).

It's disgusting. I rather have villain like OYF and GWM than someone like DFBB.

3. DGSD, THE CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY, and even DOMD (remotely) fit in together as part of a greater Jin Yong mega-saga. SPW, though ostensibly in the same continuity with these other stories, just seems...an odd fit with the others, somehow. SPW sort of works with DGSD, but doesn't work well with THE CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY at all.

This story focus on politic in wulin where as other stories focus on the hero and his enemy.

4. This is a minor complaint, but Ling Wu Chung spends too much of the story injured for my taste. I prefer my wuxia heroes to be up and fighting *most* of the time, not dying of one injury or another for most of the story.

It's hard to believe that LWC can survive from injury after injury and remain strong. I personally don't see anyone in real life that lucky.

All of these factors have turned me off to SPW, but I don't know if there's a single other wuxia or Jin Yong fan out there who shares these opinions.

Well, it's another type of wuxia. This is the type that I found disgusting.

[Ken Cheng]

Compared to HSDS, LOCH and DGSD, my exposure to SPW is through the "Hui" movie and Singapore Mediacorp adaptation. SPW is rather interesting. It does talk about human nature and greed. People are willing to sacrifice himself/hersellf/others to reach the highest potential.

That's actually a great idea, but those problems that I mentioned were so distracting (and disturbing) to me that I can't set them aside adequately to actually appreciate these finer points.

OT: If you ask "Is there any other Jin Yong fan here (or anywhere) who also doesn't like ROCH?", I will be one of them.

I have a love-hate relationship with ROCH: I hate, hate, hate the two protagonists, but like the overall *story*...at least insofar as it moves the ball forward for plot points from their inception in LOCH towards their completion in HSDS.

Count me in as one of them. I hate SPW. It's not what I am looking for in wuxia.

Me neither, and a few bad adaptations didn't help matters.

Yeah, I hate this. It's hard to believe that there are so many guys who are willing to cut off his dong. ****, what is great with being number one if you no longer have your dong.

As far back as when I first learned about this, I've thought it was one of the stupidest ideas ever. Many people see great tides of significance and meaning in this act, but all I see is utter stupidity.

It's disgusting. I rather have villain like OYF and GWM than someone like DFBB.

At least with Au Yeung Fung and the Golden Wheel Monk, I have no overwhelming urge to avert my eyes in disgust.

This story focus on politic in wulin where as other stories focus on the hero and his enemy.

...which is fine, but those distractions...feh....

It's hard to believe that LWC can survive from injury after injury and remain strong. I personally don't see anyone in real life that lucky.

I like Ling Wu Chung as a character, but I wish he could have been at his best health for more of the story. The frequency of his injuries was seriously annoying: you began to wonder if the guy was made of tissue paper.

[PJ]

1. Castration martial arts - I just find the whole idea disgusting, ridiculous, and repulsive.

2. Androgynous villains - They creep me out.

I think that's the point - you are supposed to feel disgusted by the castration and its impact. Jin Yong did that on purpose with the political reference. For me those are reasons to like the novel.

[Ken Cheng]

I think that's the point - you are supposed to feel disgusted by the castration and its impact.

I think he succeeded a little *too* well in this goal; for me, the disgust was so overwhelming that I couldn't enjoy the story.

[tape]

I agree with PJ. It was a really powerful way to send a really simple message.

[Ken Cheng]

I agree with PJ. It was a really powerful way to send a really simple message.

To me, though, it was completely unappealing and off-putting. It worked for many people, I suppose, but it's never worked for me.

[ChronoReverse]

It's kinda interesting how you're so focused on a plot point that doesn't even come into relevance for half the novel.

It's a sad situation that so many TV adaptations is flanderized with excess focus on this bit.

[Ken Cheng]

It's kinda interesting how you're so focused on a plot point that doesn't even come into relevance for half the novel.

It's a sad situation that so many TV adaptations is flanderized with excess focus on this bit.

The 1984 TVB version didn't have anything resembling a coherent plot. It seemed to be half told in flashback, with very odd pacing and an increasingly desultory storyline. The Sam Hui movie was even less coherent and seemed to be about how many times Tsor Lang Sim could spin in the air in the dark.

[Trien Chieu]

To me, though, it was completely unappealing and off-putting. It worked for many people, I suppose, but it's never worked for me.

I agree. The castration is just purely disgusting. I would totally ok with if the big sacrifice of learning the QFBD/PXJF is something else instead. If the consequences of learning QFBD/PXJF is shorten his/her life. Let say people who learn QFBD/PXJF only live for another 10, 5 or even 3 years then die.

[BlackRaven]

There are very powerful martial arts in SPW that do not require castration, so perhaps watching/reading about these might interest you. The castration martial arts are extremely powerful in SPW, but they are not the end-all be-all. There are great alternatives, namely the most holy and orthodox skill, Tendon Altering Sutra.

I think KHBD and Pixie swordplay adds a special flavor to this story, and puts many characters in an interesting moral dilemma, but to each their own.

Why not watch State of Divinity with Jackie Lui? It's a GREAT TV series in its own right. And LHC harshly condemns KHBD in it. So does Ren Woxing. You might wanna enjoy those old time gems, because the new adaptations are more akin to Journey to the West style Fantasy with an abundance of special effects than good old wuxia.

Edit: The cast of villains is quite diverse, none of which are painted with a broad black stroke. Most of them are depicted in a shade of grey. Someone like Tian Boguang comes to mind, although he too becomes half a man at the end

I like Ren Woxing and Zuo Lengchan as villains as well as Yue Buqun. Some characters that appear as villains at first, such as Feng Buping, when you look back and reflect on the story, they don't appear to be evil, just people dedicated to the way of the sword and honoring their teachers. With a sprinkle of ambition yes, but not sheer malice.

[smurf120]

The most well loved onscreen portrayals tend to be LOCH and ROCH, however after reading most of the translations, I find that I liked the written versions of LOCH and ROCH the least or maybe I was overly familiar with the story - either way, it seems too sanitized and fairly black and white characterizations.

I thoroughly enjoyed SPW translation, which I did not like as much onscreen as LOCH/ROCH - I did watch parts of '80s Chow Yun Fat version, the whole, 90s Jackie Lui version, Taiwan Richie Ren version, just missing recent China version.

The castration martial arts seemed to be mentioned but does not cast a shadow on the rest of the book the way it plays out onscreen. I did not find myself thinking about it over and over again - actually I though more about "Kap Sing Dai Fat" - where one can suck out the martial arts of another. You can be all powerful with limitless energy, but this feels like cheating.

[shortsight]

As much as most of us hate the castration part, many more had 'cut it' not to become the best in wulin, but simply to be a servant at the imperial court. It is not too difficult to understand that there would be at least a handful of people willing to do that out of desperation.

[Trien Chieu]

As much as most of us hate the castration part, many more had 'cut it' not to become the best in wulin, but simply to be a servant at the imperial court.

Yeah, people back then were stupid huh. Honestly, what is so great about working in the imperial court. There are full of traps waiting for you. You are alone fighting for your life. Your best friends could be your worst enemies. You don't know who will back stab you. I would rather live a normal life outside and stay away from power.

It is not too difficult to understand that there would be at least a handful of people willing to do that out of desperation.

None of them were desperate. LYT, DFBB and YBQ were not desparate. All of them were in the very good position before they castrate themselves. Even LPZ wasn't that desperate. Too bad that he didn't have the patience to wait.

[Ace High]

Yeah, people back then were stupid huh. Honestly, what is so great about working in the imperial court. There are full of traps waiting for you. You are alone fighting for your life. Your best friends could be your worst enemies. You don't know who will back stab you. I would rather live a normal life outside and stay away from power. .

Families often encouraged their sons to become eunuchs as a means of pulling the family out of poverty and gaining admittance into the imperial court. Many parents even organized their sons' castration at an early age in hopes that they would become imperial eunuchs.

Many eunuchs were orphans or sons of prisoners. In her book on the famous eunuch Zheng He, Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne, Louise Levathes wrote: “As was the custom, young sons of prisoners were castrated. Thousands of young boys—some no more than 9 or 10 years of age—were stripped naked, subjected to one brutal stroke of a curved knife... Hundreds never recovered, dying of infection and exposure. Those who did were taken to the capital to serve as court eunuchs.”

[Ken Cheng]

Even setting aside the castration issue, it seems to me that the narrative of SPW was disorderly. I never could follow it (through two entirely different adaptations), and I felt that the story took huge breaks from discussing the adventures of Ling Wu Chung to discuss random minor characters.

Maybe it's a great wuxia story that's just damn near unadaptable.

[pannonian]

Even setting aside the castration issue, it seems to me that the narrative of SPW was disorderly. I never could follow it (through two entirely different adaptations), and I felt that the story took huge breaks from discussing the adventures of Ling Wu Chung to discuss random minor characters.

Maybe it's a great wuxia story that's just damn near unadaptable.

The novel was pretty focused throughout, IMHO the JY novel with the least "fat" out of those I've read. Once Linghu Chong was introduced as the story's main character, the focus remains on him for the rest of the novel.