South Emperor Deun Chi Hing/1 Deng: an afterthought in both LOCH and ROCH?

[Ken Cheng]

Do you feel that the character of South Emperor Deun Chi Hing/1 Deng the Monk was sort of an afterthought by Jin Yong in both LOCH and ROCH?

In both stories, 1 Deng didn't show up until the stories were more than two-thirds over (in ROCH's case, it might have been three-fourths over), long after each of the other Greats had been introduced and given ample character development. I sometimes get the feeling that with 1 Deng in both LOCH and ROCH, Jin Yong seemed to say to himself, "OK...I *must* have four/five Greats for geographical/symbolic balance, but South Emperor isn't that important compared to the others and I'll just introduce/reintroduce him briefly near the end just so that he can be there."

Does anyone else get this feeling about how Jin Yong presented 1 Deng in both LOCH and ROCH?

[tape]

None of the Greats were particularly important in ROCH, especially HYS and YD. OYF and H7G had more screentime but still not that important overall imo.

Yideng was pretty important in LOCH considering the whole arc of Huang Rong getting injured, the introduction and ending of QQR, and the whole Yinggu thing. His appearance was foreshadowed since Hong Qigong was injured.

[Ken Cheng]

None of the Greats were particularly important in ROCH, especially HYS and YD. OYF and H7G had more screentime but still not that important overall imo.

Yideng was pretty important in LOCH considering the whole arc of Huang Rong getting injured, the introduction and ending of QQR, and the whole Yinggu thing. His appearance was foreshadowed since Hong Qigong was injured.

I feel that with Central Divinity, East Heretic, North Beggar, West Poison, and Old Mischief, they were always placed right at the *center* of the protagonists' (e.g. Gwok Jing/Wong Yung and Yeung Gor/Little Dragon Girl) stories. 1 Deng's presence in the stories of the protagonists, however, seems more "slotted in." His connections to the Gwok/Yeung protagonists don't feel as organic and deep as those of the other Greats. The connections are there, but feel much more of an afterthought than those of the others.

[PJ]

None of the Greats were particularly important in ROCH, especially HYS and YD. OYF and H7G had more screentime but still not that important overall imo.

HYS definitely had more screen time than H7Q in ROCH.

[Banh Mi]

All the Greats were elusive figures in their own way. Yideng was hard to approach in the way a monk ought to be. Not traveling around all that much. They had to generate some pretty far fetched reasons for him to go places.

[Ken Cheng]

It's not so much a matter of the quantity of facetime 1 Deng gets relative to the other Greats as *how* his facetime in LOCH/ROCH is managed. In both stories, he's the last Great to appear (and he appears *much* later than any of the others in both cases). When he does appear, he does much less and is less involved in general than the other Greats (it took until nearly the end of ROCH before we actually saw 1 Deng fight). Moreover, among all the Greats, only 1 Deng did not impart a skill to either or both Gwok Jing or Yeung Gor (his translating the Sanskrit portion of the 9 Yum Jen Ging for Gwok Jing in LOCH doesn't count, because he didn't actually teach Gwok Jing how to use the skill). All of this combined causes 1 Deng to appear to be an afterthought compared to the other Greats.

[pannonian]

It's not so much a matter of the quantity of facetime 1 Deng gets relative to the other Greats as *how* his facetime in LOCH/ROCH is managed. In both stories, he's the last Great to appear (and he appears *much* later than any of the others in both cases). When he does appear, he does much less and is less involved in general than the other Greats (it took until nearly the end of ROCH before we actually saw 1 Deng fight). Moreover, among all the Greats, only 1 Deng did not impart a skill to either or both Gwok Jing or Yeung Gor (his translating the Sanskrit portion of the 9 Yum Jen Ging for Gwok Jing in LOCH doesn't count, because he didn't actually teach Gwok Jing how to use the skill). All of this combined causes 1 Deng to appear to be an afterthought compared to the other Greats.

I suspect it's the opposite. I've heard people complain before about Jinyong's preachiness when Buddhism is involved, notably in DGSD, but it's evident in LOCH and ROCH too whenever Yideng appears. The action slows right down, the philosophy level goes right up, and the amount of action that would have taken half a chapter with other characters is stretched out to several chapters. Kind of like the first Passionless Valley episode in ROCH, but even slower. Yideng, moreso than the other Greats, seems to be a vehicle for Jinyong's authorial voice.

[Ian Liew]

I think we, as the audience (or readers), tend to compartmentalise characters in the stories we read or watch. It's like when there are four greats, we expect all four to run parallel roles within the story. It's also like when I see a show, and there are any "sets", like 4 guards, or 2 maids, or something, when one dies I fully expect the entire set to die in the same fight (and more often than not, they do). It's not really realistic, but just part of the story tropes which we have taken for granted. I, for one, like how the 4 greats do not get equal treatment in the story - it's 5 greats, of course, but due to tropes Central Divinity never really felt like part of the greats, so we usually refer to them as 4. He was also Central, the absence of which doesn't really matter when you're talking about North, South, East and West, and we would probably have felt it more if he was North or South and the story left one main direction empty or something!

[Dirt]

I suspect it's the opposite. I've heard people complain before about Jinyong's preachiness when Buddhism is involved, notably in DGSD, but it's evident in LOCH and ROCH too whenever Yideng appears. The action slows right down, the philosophy level goes right up, and the amount of action that would have taken half a chapter with other characters is stretched out to several chapters. Kind of like the first Passionless Valley episode in ROCH, but even slower. Yideng, moreso than the other Greats, seems to be a vehicle for Jinyong's authorial voice.

So whenever he appears, the action goes south. *nyuk nyuk nyuk*

[东邪黄药师]

I get what Ken means...and I agree.

Northen Beggar and OYF were constantly sparring with each other. HYS was constantly in conflict with QZ and the 7 freaks.

1Deng seemingly appears just as a solution to HR's injury...

[Ken Cheng]

I get what Ken means...and I agree.

Northen Beggar and OYF were constantly sparring with each other. HYS was constantly in conflict with QZ and the 7 freaks.

1Deng seemingly appears just as a solution to HR's injury...

...and the nature and depth of their relationships with the protagonists:

East Heretic: Gwok Jing (father-in-law)/Yeung Gor (unofficial teacher/friend)

West Poison: Gwok Jing (mortal enemy)/Yeung Gor (adopted father)

North Beggar: Gwok Jing (official teacher)/Yeung Gor (unofficial teacher)

South Emperor: Gwok Jing (incidental acquaintance)/Yeung Gor (incidental acquaintance)

Although Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor were friendly with 1 Deng, and he did help both of them in various ways, 1 Deng did not establish close personal ties with either of them the way the other Greats did.

[Dirt]

It also didn't make sense that Yideng didn't stick around at the 2nd Hua Shan tournament. WCY taught him Xian Tian Gong so that he could counter Ouyang Feng. If OYF did turn out to have become uber-powerful, wouldn't the 2nd Hua Shan tournament be the perfect time and place to deprive him of his martial arts again?