View Poll Results: Who would you want to support in your imagination?

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  • Xiao Yuanshan's nameless Han teacher

    10 76.92%
  • Qiu Qianren's teacher, 13th leader of Iron Palm Clan, CHINESE PATRIOT Shangguan Jiannan

    3 23.08%
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Thread: Teacher War: Xiao Yuanshan's teacher -vs- Qiu Qianren's teacher

  1. #1
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Default Teacher War: Xiao Yuanshan's teacher -vs- Qiu Qianren's teacher

    Xiao Yuanshan's teacher is a Han Chinese. I think that's the ONLY thing we know about that guy. No mention of his martial arts level.

    Qiu Qianren's teacher is ELOC contestant Shangguan Jiannan. He was a major Han patriot. Furthermore, I heard that his martial arts was much weaker than Qiu Qianren.

    If Shangguan Jiannan and Xiao Yuanshan's nameless teacher were to fight, who would you want to win in your imagination?
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  2. #2
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    I have a bit of starry-eyed syndrome with pre-Shaolin XYS and his feat of beating up the wulin fighters. Solely because of that I voted XYS's teacher.

  3. #3
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Xiao Yuanshan's teacher. It was specifically stated in the novel that Shangguan Jiannan's martial arts level was not high, but that people held him in high esteem because he was an extremely loyal Han patriot. Whereas Xiao Yuanshan's teacher must have been exceptionally skilled, to train Xiao Yuanshan to such an incredibly high level. Alas, we know no more about that character.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Xiao Yuanshan's teacher. It was specifically stated in the novel that Shangguan Jiannan's martial arts level was not high, but that people held him in high esteem because he was an extremely loyal Han patriot. Whereas Xiao Yuanshan's teacher must have been exceptionally skilled, to train Xiao Yuanshan to such an incredibly high level. Alas, we know no more about that character.
    If Shangguan Jiannan could train Qiu Qianren despite not being very good, couldn't the same thing happen with XYS's teacher?

    But, since XYS is likely stronger than Qiu Qianren, I would say XYS's teacher is stronger.

  5. #5
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    If Shangguan Jiannan could train Qiu Qianren despite not being very good, couldn't the same thing happen with XYS's teacher?

    But, since XYS is likely stronger than Qiu Qianren, I would say XYS's teacher is stronger.
    Well, it was stated that Qiu Qianren himself improved drastically (much more than his brother), whereas for Xiao Yuanshan, I doubt he would have had much of a chance, since I personally got the impression that he got his martial arts to such a high level in large part because of his teacher.

    Which actually begs the question...who is this teacher, who could and would train a Khitan that had the ability to wipe out an entire contingent of relatively powerful martial artists?
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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    There's a possibility that like father like son, Xiao Yuan San is just as talented as his son.

    Xiao Feng's sifus weren't that good (they were among those who would be b!tch-slapped by XYS) yet look at how XF turned out.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    There's a possibility that like father like son, Xiao Yuan San is just as talented as his son.

    Xiao Feng's sifus weren't that good (they were among those who would be b!tch-slapped by XYS) yet look at how XF turned out.
    Came in to post this.

  8. #8
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    I believe Shangguan Jiannan is the actual teacher (sifu) of QQR, but this statement by Hong Qigong is a bit confusing:

    洪七公又道:「裘千仞,你铁掌帮上代帮主上官剑南何等英雄,一生尽忠报国,死而後已。你师父又何尝不是一条 铁铮铮的好汉子?你接你师父当了帮主,却去与金人勾结,通敌卖国,死了有何面目去见上官帮主和 你师父?」

    Hong Qigong said: Qiu Qianren, your predecessor Shangguan Jiannan, leader of Iron Palm Clan, was a hero and patriot. Your teacher was also a righteous man. You inherited the leadership position from your teacher, but became friendly with the Jurchens and a traitor to your country. When you die, how can you face Leader Shangguan and your teacher?

    On one hand, the wording seems to insinuate there is the previous leader and a separate teacher. On the other hand, it could be the same person, and Hong Qigong just wants to remind Qiu that his actions disgraced Shangguan as both teacher and former leader.

    The thing supports the "same person" theory is that he says Qiu inherited the leader position from his teacher.

    Your interpretation?
    Last edited by PJ; 12-31-21 at 05:54 PM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  9. #9
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I believe Shangguan Jiannan is the actual teacher (sifu) of QQR, but this statement by Hong Qigong is a bit confusing:

    洪七公又道:「裘千仞,你铁掌帮上代帮主上官剑南何等英雄,一生尽忠报国,死而後已。你师父又何尝不是一条 铁铮铮的好汉子?你接你师父当了帮主,却去与金人勾结,通敌卖国,死了有何面目去见上官帮主和 你师父?」

    Hong Qigong said: Qiu Qianren, your predecessor Shangguan Jiannan, leader of Iron Palm Clan, was a hero and patriot. Your teacher was also a righteous man. You inherited the leadership position from your teacher, but became friendly with the Jurchens and a traitor to your country. When you die, how can you face Leader Shangguan and your teacher?

    On one hand, the wording seems to insinuate there is the previous leader and a separate teacher. On the other hand, it could be the same person, and Hong Qigong just wants to remind Qiu that his actions disgraced Shangguan as both teacher and former leader.

    The thing supports the "same person" theory is that he says Qiu inherited the leader position from his teacher.

    Your interpretation?
    Wow, good catch. Now I am confused. Grammatically, it seems clear that they are two separate people - but the text only makes sense if they are the same.

    The only way I can reconcile is that 上代 doesn’t refer to literally the previous one right before QQR, but perhaps one of the most famous previous leaders.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I believe Shangguan Jiannan is the actual teacher (sifu) of QQR, but this statement by Hong Qigong is a bit confusing:

    洪七公又道:「裘千仞,你铁掌帮上代帮主上官剑南何等英雄,一生尽忠报国,死而後已。你师父又何尝不是一条 铁铮铮的好汉子?你接你师父当了帮主,却去与金人勾结,通敌卖国,死了有何面目去见上官帮主和 你师父?」

    Hong Qigong said: Qiu Qianren, your predecessor Shangguan Jiannan, leader of Iron Palm Clan, was a hero and patriot. Your teacher was also a righteous man. You inherited the leadership position from your teacher, but became friendly with the Jurchens and a traitor to your country. When you die, how can you face Leader Shangguan and your teacher?

    On one hand, the wording seems to insinuate there is the previous leader and a separate teacher. On the other hand, it could be the same person, and Hong Qigong just wants to remind Qiu that his actions disgraced Shangguan as both teacher and former leader.

    The thing supports the "same person" theory is that he says Qiu inherited the leader position from his teacher.

    Your interpretation?
    I am going with a different person. Would be fun if Shangguan Jiannan was XYS's teacher then!
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  11. #11
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    OK, in chapter 28 (2nd ed), it seems pretty clear that Shangguan is the teacher and direct predecessor (although it is still possible that 上官帮主 is not Shangguan Jiannan):

    到十三岁上,裘千仞无意之间救了铁掌帮上官帮主的性命。那上官帮主感恩图报,将全身武功倾囊相授。裘千仞到得二十四岁时,功夫浸寻有青出于蓝之势,次年上官帮主逝世,临终时将铁掌帮帮主之位传了给他

    However, this is confirmed in the 3rd ed, with Hong Qigong's statement fixed:

    洪七公又道:“裘千仞,你师父铁掌帮上代帮主上官剑南何等英雄,一生尽忠报国,是一条铁铮铮的好汉子。你接你师父当了帮主,却去与金人勾结,通敌卖国,死了有何 面目去见你师父?
    Last edited by PJ; 01-01-22 at 12:46 PM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  12. #12
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    I am going with a different person. Would be fun if Shangguan Jiannan was XYS's teacher then!
    That would have been interesting (although impossible since it was said SGJN worked under Yue Fei during Southern Song). In that scenario, although we know SGJN is a hardcore Han patriot, maybe he was impressed by Xiao Yuanshan's talent and character, and it was an opportunity to implant some Han sympathy in the Liao kingdom - kinda like what the Hans did with XF later in reverse.

    And, it would make this poll rather single sided
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  13. #13
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    That would have been interesting (although impossible since it was said SGJN worked under Yue Fei during Southern Song). In that scenario, although we know SGJN is a hardcore Han patriot, maybe he was impressed by Xiao Yuanshan's talent and character, and it was an opportunity to implant some Han sympathy in the Liao kingdom - kinda like what the Hans did with XF later in reverse.

    And, it would make this poll rather single sided
    Could have used SGJN's grandteacher Shangguan Jianbei then. Would be fun if JY made these little ELOC links between his novels.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  14. #14
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Shangguan Jianbei
    Might as well name him Xiamin Daobei. 下民刀北
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  15. #15
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Back to the topic, I haven't checked the novel exhaustively, but I'm not seeing where it says SGJN's MA is vastly inferior to Qiu Qianren. The only reference to his MA level is that he and Qiu Qianren improved Iron Palm greatly. Given that, he shouldn't be too scrubby. Ofc it wouldn't be surprising if his MA is far below Greats, I just haven't found where it states that.

    Also, I'm reminded that Qiu Qianren had trouble handling Yinggu on the boat (after taking forever to defeat young GJ). She was going all out on him and he had no way to fight back, only to evade. This rivals GWM being hit on the head by Ma Guangzuo as the biggest embarrassment in Greats history.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  16. #16
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Back to the topic, I haven't checked the novel exhaustively, but I'm not seeing where it says SGJN's MA is vastly inferior to Qiu Qianren. The only reference to his MA level is that he and Qiu Qianren improved Iron Palm greatly. Given that, he shouldn't be too scrubby. Ofc it wouldn't be surprising if his MA is far below Greats, I just haven't found where it states that.

    Also, I'm reminded that Qiu Qianren had trouble handling Yinggu on the boat (after taking forever to defeat young GJ). She was going all out on him and he had no way to fight back, only to evade. This rivals GWM being hit on the head by Ma Guangzuo as the biggest embarrassment in Greats history.
    I guess the lesson therein is if a combatant fights fearfully with cowardice in his/her heart, then it does not matter how superior his/her martial arts are...he/she is still likely to meet defeat in spite of his/her superior prowess.

  17. #17
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    I wonder if Shangguan Jiannan is named after 劍南道 (Jiannan Circuit), where Tang Emperor Xuanzong fled to during the An Lushan rebellion.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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