Xiao Long Nu vs Linghu Chung

[tape]

The Mongolian warriors weren't exactly scrubs...I wouldn't place them too far behind XWT. If XWT could see the stances of DFBB, and the Mongolians couldn't see XLN, I'd say the delivery of her stances are faster. Body speed though, DFBB still seems faster.

[ChronoReverse]

Individually they were only a bit better than the QZ 7. This certainly qualifies them as scrubs against a Great level opponent. Would they even last 5 stances against a LOCH Great? I'd say that against a ROCH they'd be dominated with the first blow and crushed by the second if a Great was actually trying hard.


If we consider RWX to be at least LOCH Great class if not better, then RWX being able to see DFBB's stances is hardly as difficult a task as someone who can't even take a few of stances of RWX's level.


Furthermore, DFBB had the disadvantage of weaponry. XLN was swinging a sword around while DFBB had to make do with needles. It isn't terribly difficult to make a sword turn into a blur with some wrist action but the speed of a needle is as fast as your own arm can go.


And then we still have the case of GJ turning his entire body into a blur...

[Dirt]

I consider scrubs to be those that fought GJ at Chongyang Temple. The Mongolian warriors weren't scrubs at all in that context.

[ChronoReverse]

True enough but the point is low level fighters are not a measurement that's accurate (the QZ fighters were obviously far below a Great's level).

However, the difference between LHC and DFBB isn't as high as the difference between a Great and a Mongolian warrior or QZ leader. LHC can resist DFBB for a bit but the other two wouldn't be able to hold on for more than the briefest of moments.

Simply put, they're not a good enough judge of speed to use as PROOF that XLN is faster than DFBB.

[PJ]

It really depends on if we're talking about end-novel LHC ... who isn't the usual half-dead swordsman we're used to seeing in our heads. Remember, DG9J powered by Yijinjing could be a very different story.

Surely the half-dead version is better?

[PJ]

GJ moved so quickly that his entire body turned into an indistinct blur to 98 observers in the beginning of ROCH. Shall we crown him the Ultimate Speedster of Jin Yong (TM)?

I started a thread a while ago proposing that the Greats can be just as fast as DFBB when Jin Yong wanted them to be: since they have shown superhuman speed at times a la DFBB.

The difference was the Greats' superhuman speed was inconsistent; sometimes they were super fast while other times they were just normal speed. While DFBB was consistently fast (well, as consistent as he can be in the only scene he appeared in).

[CancerLuna]

The scrub taoists observed Guo Jing to be a blur.

Did the mongol warriors observe Guo Jing to be a blur when they fought?

IIRC, they did not, yet they saw XLN as a blur.

@PJ
Were there any fights where any of the Greats exhibited superhuman speed against each other. From what I remember, it was always superhuman speed versus lower tier fighter. YG at the temple, GJ against the taoists, XLN(not great) against mongols, and GWM.

So far it seems, XLN is the only one who produced superhuman speed against someone higher level than her.

[tape]

Individually they were only a bit better than the QZ 7. This certainly qualifies them as scrubs against a Great level opponent. Would they even last 5 stances against a LOCH Great? I'd say that against a ROCH they'd be dominated with the first blow and crushed by the second if a Great was actually trying hard.


If we consider RWX to be at least LOCH Great class if not better, then RWX being able to see DFBB's stances is hardly as difficult a task as someone who can't even take a few of stances of RWX's level.


Furthermore, DFBB had the disadvantage of weaponry. XLN was swinging a sword around while DFBB had to make do with needles. It isn't terribly difficult to make a sword turn into a blur with some wrist action but the speed of a needle is as fast as your own arm can go.


And then we still have the case of GJ turning his entire body into a blur...

Well, individually XWT wouldn't last more than a stance or two against DFBB either, so the gap between him and DFBB was huge also. If XWT could see him then that's the point of comparison, but I'm not sure if he could or couldn't.

[ChronoReverse]

So far it seems, XLN is the only one who produced superhuman speed against someone higher level than her.

I'm not sure why you would consider her to be lower level than the Mongolian warriors. She may have inferior internal energy, but she definitely had far superior technique (it was a Great-class technique after all) along with her blazing speed.


Besides, despite all the ballyhoo about XLN's speed, she was unable to penetrate the defenses of the Mongolian warriors when using two swords. It was only when she switched to sword juggling where she gained an even greater stated weapon advantage that she utterly defeated them.

Well, individually XWT wouldn't last more than a stance or two against DFBB either, so the gap between him and DFBB was huge also. If XWT could see him then that's the point of comparison, but I'm not sure if he could or couldn't.

Perhaps this could be true about XWT (undefined but not an unreasonable assumption) but it wasn't completely the case for LHC who did resist a number of strikes.




In any case, which is more impressive?
(1) to launch an attack your opponent can't see but they still manage to block it
(2) to launch an attack your opponent can see but they still can't block it

Remember this, Jade Maiden swordplay was explicitly stated by JY to have illusionary sword images. One of the reasons 9 Yin counters it is because 9 Yin had a method to see through this. DFBB's techniques were completely ordinary and used an inferior weapon. Thus the moves were easily seen through but it didn't matter anyway.

[PJ]

@PJ
Were there any fights where any of the Greats exhibited superhuman speed against each other?

Tianshan Tonglao and Li Qiushui were blur-like to Xuzhu. This was after Xuzhu learned from TSTL and managed to tie Li Qiushui for a short while, so their speed was quite impressive.

Other than that, I don't recall the Greats-and-above fighters being blur-like to their peers.

In HSDS, Eight-Armed Swordsman Fang Dongbai's movements were said to be blur-like to the people at Wudang, which included some Yang Xiao-level fighters.

From what I remember, it was always superhuman speed versus lower tier fighter.

Seems to be the case, which was true of DFBB as well.

[PJ]

In any case, which is more impressive?
(1) to launch an attack your opponent can't see but they still manage to block it
(2) to launch an attack your opponent can see but they still can't block it

I would say #2 is more badass. Sweeper Monk was the ultimate expression of that.

[tape]

In any case, which is more impressive?
(1) to launch an attack your opponent can't see but they still manage to block it
(2) to launch an attack your opponent can see but they still can't block it

Remember this, Jade Maiden swordplay was explicitly stated by JY to have illusionary sword images. One of the reasons 9 Yin counters it is because 9 Yin had a method to see through this. DFBB's techniques were completely ordinary and used an inferior weapon. Thus the moves were easily seen through but it didn't matter anyway.

Well of course DFBB is more impressive with (2), but that was only because of his inner strength. If XLN had the same inner strength powering her strikes, she would be unseeable AND unblockable.

Since we're comparing LHC and XLN though, it's hard to say whether her superior speed is enough to overcome LHC, who may not be fast enough to take advantage of whatever flaws he might find but good enough to blindly block.

[ChronoReverse]

But that's the thing, it really doesn't matter what DFBB's internal energy was for this because if he's faster then he's faster. It's not like DFBB is using the internal energy to smash through. It was simply sheer speed.


The real question here for XLN vs LHC is whether LHC can see through the illusionary swords to the real one. Considering the entire point of his sword art was to see the truth behind the opponent's attack and how he demonstrated seeing through illusionary flashes throughout the novel, LHC (especially with YJJ steadying his heart at the end of the novel) stands a pretty good chance against the hypnotic swordplay of Jade Maiden.



Incidentally, XLN's fight against the Mongolian warriors shows that she's very clever and was a thinking fighter. The odds really were stacked against her but she came through with quick-thinking.

[Snafu3721]

Here is something to throw into the argument which may help determine speed

GJ also has L/R technique. Do we think that GJ can replicate XLN's speed if he threw 2 palms at a time as fast as he can? Now if we we're to say no, then I ask this question--

Why is XLN's L/R Jade Maiden all of a sudden so fast? Per the novel, she traded power for speed. Every time she used more swords, the faster she got, but less power.

So, why wouldn't GJ be just as fast if he was just using his palm with less power? No weapons needed. He can technically just L/R finger snap or throw really weak punches and be faster in executing his moves. I don't believe just because XLN was using Jade Maiden, she got faster. It was because she reduced power and used more and more swords.

GWM was loosing due to serious mental handicap so I'll exclude him. But while the other mongol mercs couldn't hurt XLN, they were able to defend against her attacks to a certain degree. Meaning she wasn't so fast that they couldn't react at all; much like DFBB vs LHC & co.

Then there is GSZ who was able to fight XLN to a stalemate after few hundred stances... I really don't see GSZ being at Greats lvl... but he was actually doing ok. What happened to XLN's speed then?

[ChronoReverse]

In fact, the Mongolian warriors were able to fully defend against XLN's attacks including the sword juggling part (although they had to struggle). It was an unfortunately moment where one of them had three simultaneous swords tangle up in his whip that it fell apart.


With that said, XLN specialized in speed. It was stated that her martial arts was based on flash and speed. Combined with the hypnotic illusions of Jade Maiden, it's not surprising the observers from the side only saw blurs.

[PJ]

Here is something to throw into the argument which may help determine speed

GJ also has L/R technique. Do we think that GJ can replicate XLN's speed if he threw 2 palms at a time as fast as he can? Now if we we're to say no, then I ask this question--

Why is XLN's L/R Jade Maiden all of a sudden so fast? Per the novel, she traded power for speed. Every time she used more swords, the faster she got, but less power.

So, why wouldn't GJ be just as fast if he was just using his palm with less power? No weapons needed. He can technically just L/R finger snap or throw really weak punches and be faster in executing his moves. I don't believe just because XLN was using Jade Maiden, she got faster. It was because she reduced power and used more and more swords.

GWM was loosing due to serious mental handicap so I'll exclude him. But while the other mongol mercs couldn't hurt XLN, they were able to defend against her attacks to a certain degree. Meaning she wasn't so fast that they couldn't react at all; much like DFBB vs LHC & co.

Then there is GSZ who was able to fight XLN to a stalemate after few hundred stances... I really don't see GSZ being at Greats lvl... but he was actually doing ok. What happened to XLN's speed then?

In ROCH, Jin Yong still believed that speed was no match for raw power, hence his comment that GWM could have smashed through XLN with his raw power. Hence why all the Greats are > XLN despite her superhuman speed.

So I guess by that logic, Guo Jing using L/R with more speed and less power is not a big advantage over the normal GJ; might even be worse off.

[tape]

But that's the thing, it really doesn't matter what DFBB's internal energy was for this because if he's faster then he's faster. It's not like DFBB is using the internal energy to smash through. It was simply sheer speed.

Well having better inner power is good for many things besides just smashing through. DFBB wasn't as tired, could block with very little effort, and somewhat stun (even if only for milliseconds) due to his inner strength. It was mentioned that if XLN's inner strength was even roughly on the same level as the Mongolians, then she would kill them easily. She wouldn't be smashing through, but her stronger sword strikes might knock away their sword by a millimeter or stun them for half a millisecond, enough for her to stab in with her blazing speed. Or she could outlast them since she was attacking and they were just defending and bound to make a mistake eventually.

OA random not, one small advantage XLN had over other opponents LHC faced was that she was not really afraid of death. His mutual destruction strategy wouldn't work on her as well as most people he fought!

[ChronoReverse]

Sure, and that wasn't disputed at all since the question was simply comparing DFBB and XLN's speed.

Even ignoring how DFBB was mind-numbingly fast, the fact he also had massive internal energy makes him a tougher opponent than XLN.

OA random not, one small advantage XLN had over other opponents LHC faced was that she was not really afraid of death. His mutual destruction strategy wouldn't work on her as well as most people he fought!

That's an amusing conclusion for this fight: double KO.

[CancerLuna]

The mongols saw XLN, but not GJ as a blur, the same GJ who was a blur to the 90+ Taoists.
Taoists > GJ = Mongols > XLN

That should prove that XLN is at least as fast as GJ

We've seen feats where the higher level fighter is just a blur, yet equally tiered fighters fight in seemingly "slower" fashion. This seems to happen because there are different tiers of speed in JY novels. The same mongols who could see GJ could not see XLN correctly. Now I'm not saying LHC, RWX, and XWT are on the same tier as DFBB, but maybe they are in the same plane of speed, where they can see his attacks.

Now this doesn't prove who's faster, just that it fuels my assumption that XLN would be much faster than LHC could handle, since GJ is definitely no slouch in the speed department either.

In any case, which is more impressive?
(1) to launch an attack your opponent can't see but they still manage to block it
(2) to launch an attack your opponent can see but they still can't block it

#1 is more impressive in speed, #2 is more impressive in strength

XLN demonstrated #1, DFBB demonstrated #2

A 3rd option, can't see, can't block would be more impressive than both of those of course, which is what XLN could have done if she had even the same level of internal as the mongol mercs.

IMO, DFBB's feat was less impressive, because he had the advantage in both internal and speed versus the 3 he was soloing against, whereas XLN soloed against 3 people she was faster than, but not necessarily more powerful than(internal-wise).

[ChronoReverse]

Actually it was the QZ taoists (the strongest of which is still somewhat weaker than the Mongolian warriors) who saw XLN as a blur. And they only said they couldn't see the stances not XLN herself.

Furthermore, GWM himself wasn't that much slower than XLN even though speed wasn't his forte at all. He competed for a while before he finally took three light hits.

I wouldn't be surprised if XLN was quicker than GJ. GJ's forte isn't speed after all and XLN's martial arts focus solely on that. However, the point is that lower level fighters seeing a blur is not a useful comparing tool.



As for impressiveness, #2 has nothing to do with strength. They aren't having the moves blowing through their defense. It was simply so fast that they couldn't move to do anything about it. The Mongolian warriors were quite capable of fully defending against XLN's attack.

DFBB actually took it up another notch. DFBB moved after LHC initiated an attack, reached just close enough to prick him with just enough time to fully retreat faster than the sword stab and block it. Think about the monstrous speed this implies. DFBB moves faster than LHC can stab his sword.

Fast as XLN was, she still wasn't quick enough to penetrate the Mongolian warriors' guards meaning she was faster than them but not their weapons.

IMO, DFBB's feat was less impressive, because he had the advantage in both internal and speed versus the 3 he was soloing against, whereas XLN soloed against 3 people she was faster than, but not necessarily more powerful than(internal-wise).

So you're pretty much saying that DFBB is less impressive because he's more impressive in the first place.

Can't it just as easily be said that XLN's feat isn't that impressive since her lightness kungfu technique was so much better than the Mongolian warriors? Why, if they had the same technique, she wouldn't be able to beat them in speed at all!