HUANG RONG vs. XIAO LONG NU DEBATE

[ToastedRossi]

@Toasted

A couple of points

Why do we assume that XLN is much faster than LMC? They came from the same school and LMC has better internal training. Their striking speed should be similar, like how YG is supposedly "swift and fast". The only difference for XLN is that she has L/R technique which allows her to quickly coordinate 2 complimentary arts-- thus shortening her mental processing time. It means that she can execute Jade Maiden faster by herself than with YG. L/R in and of itself doesn't grant extra speed to the user.

We don't have to assume anything; the text tells us exactly why she's so much faster:

Xiao Longnü was taught how to separate her mind for two uses by Zhou Botong, the Left/Right Mutual Combat Technique; between her innate abilities and his teaching, her martial arts had multiplied. With Yang Guo forming the Dueling Sword Combination and using the ‘Pure Heart of the Jade Maiden Sword Technique’, few have matched it under the heavens. Now, as one person, she can use two swords simultaneously, with outstanding power. Regardless of how two people’s intentions are interlinked with each other, it’s still inferior to one person’s lightning-like alertness during battle. At this moment, although her sword method’s energy and strength weren’t as good as two people teaming up, her moves are faster in comparison by many times.

So how fast is that? The text tells us that as well:

Yin Kexi was deeply surprised, he thought, “This sword may not have hit me, but I was powerless to guard Zhao Zhijing, that is also a disgrace”. His opponent’s move was very fast, he just couldn’t follow her twin sword’s route and oncoming force; if he continued to fight her in this way he will definitely lose. The more he thought of this, the more cowardly he became; with a swing of the Golden Dragon Whip, he bellowed: “Miss Dragon Girl, please be merciful!” Xiao Longnü didn’t care since she didn’t regard him as an enemy, or a friend; without slowing her pace, she stepped twice to the left. Yin Kexi followed with one turn, still wanting to protect Zhao Zhijing, but suddenly heard moaning behind him. Slowly turning his head around, he saw Zhao Zhijing’s robe sleeves had been neatly split into two parts by the point of her sword and blood came running from the wounds. How Xiao Longnü had pierced him, the other people were still completely baffled by it. Her rapid and skilful sword methods had reached a point where not only do her routes leave no trace, it’s as if she can block one person and still injure her foe at will.

Yeah, opponents as skillful as Yin Kexi can't even see her attack.

I have debated this before, if that's the case, then GJ should get a speed boost. because GJ using XL18P + Vacant fist would be much "faster" than the coordinated effort of H7G and ZBT. I agree that while H7G and ZBT's fighting isn't as complimentary, but none the less, it would mean that GJ executing 2 Greats lvl techniques would be GREATER in speed and potency than if 2 Actual Greats teamed up. And if we believe that L/R grants XLN godspeed, then GJ should be a blur too when he fights GWM. GJ would just constantly be a hurricane of fists and palms going by that logic.

There's no one in the Mongol trilogy who fights as fast as Xiaolongnu does: not Guo Jing, and not Zhou Botong. In fact, the only characters in Jin Yong's writings with comparable speed are Dongfang Bubai and Ah Qing.

In this case, we're left with the result that the speed of a + b is much slower than x + y. The conclusion shouldn't be that this is impossible, but that there's something special about x and y that make them so much faster.

The other thing is that unless XLN is so fast that HR can't even react, then her L/R + Jade Maiden wouldn't as useful against HR as it would be against GSZ. Because HR's 9-yin can actually defeat Jade Maiden whereas GSZ's sword/saber technique can't. If we assume that HR can't react at all, then I agree that HR would lose. But I personally don't think XLN is THAT fast.

9-Yin doesn't defeat the Jade Maiden martial arts. What happened was that Wang Chongyang took some ideas from it and used them as a counter to the Jade Maiden Heart Sutra. There's two problems here: the first is that even if you're as smart as Wang Chongyang, he had to spend some time figuring out the counter. The second is that Jade Maiden Swordplay is a totally different animal, and there's no way to know if there even is a counter for it.

In addition, using GSZ as a benchmark isn't that much more accurate for measuring HR or XLN. As they both exchanged a few stances and there was no outcome. I agree that HR did think to herself she may not win alone and that GSZ didn't want to continue fighting XLN. But many times the mental thoughts of the characters themselves don't always reveal actual combat potential. Immediate following XLN and GSZ's exchange, there were many more comments on how XLN would surely lose and that she needs help. Which is why HR and YG devised a mental strategy to distract GSZ which worked.

They were worried that she would fall off the cliff so they tried to help her out. It was obvious that she had the upper hand the whole time.

And if a skilled and experienced combatant can figure out that her opponent is stronger than she is after just a few attacks, then you'd think that she might have some idea where they stand.

[Snafu3721]

I've already argued this on a seperate thread

I don't think L/R makes XLN's speed faster. It makes her REACTION TIME faster when using Jade Maiden, and since the Jade Maiden is complimentary, it happens that there will be no conflict of moves hindering execution. But it's not like if you had L/R, then you automatically get a speed boost in your strike speed. DFBB is another matter all together, DFBB is fast overall-- striking, movement, reaction.

Xiao Longnü was taught how to separate her mind for two uses by Zhou Botong, the Left/Right Mutual Combat Technique; between her innate abilities and his teaching, her martial arts had multiplied. With Yang Guo forming the Dueling Sword Combination and using the ‘Pure Heart of the Jade Maiden Sword Technique’, few have matched it under the heavens. Now, as one person, she can use two swords simultaneously, with outstanding power. Regardless of how two people’s intentions are interlinked with each other, it’s still inferior to one person’s lightning-like alertness during battle. At this moment, although her sword method’s energy and strength weren’t as good as two people teaming up, her moves are faster in comparison by many times.

All that quote is saying is that one person using 2 techniques via L/R is faster than if 2 people were using the same techniques because no matter how interlinked, 2 people thinking and reacting is not the same as if one person own mental process. By this definition alone, GJ would be able to replicate the same reaction time.

XLN is fast, but shes not so much faster than the Mongol mercs that they can't react to her strikes before the sword juggling. I agree that part of the reason the Mercs were forced to only defend was that XLN was incredibly fast. But it was also because of the ingenuity of her Jade Maiden. Remember, this is a Greats lvl art-- as I just posted above once GJ had learned XL18P, the Jin flunkies also reacted to GJ the same way the Mongol Mercs were reacting to XLN.

Regarding your comment on Trilogy fighters, there is no proof that XLN is much faster than any of the Greats. Again covered in another thread. If that's the case, then she would be able to mow down ALL of the Greats on a one on one fight if they can't dispatch her using a roar or some kind of Area attack. XLN is fast, but not mind numbing fast like DFBB was to LHC and co.
There were times that Greats lvl fighters moved so fast that a Mongol Merc level person simply can't see or react. In fact, there were even bizarre feats of speed that even XLN perhaps could not reproduce. One example is how fast YG slapped the Mongol Mercs when drinking with HYS. Another is how fast YG is able to switch out KeZhenE with a Stone statue from a large distance when the Jin Flunkies were about to strike KeZhenE to death.

[Snafu3721]

Btw Toasted

This is the 3rd time I think we have "切磋" exchanged stances over this topic =)

[Doc Kwok]

I've already argued this on a seperate thread

I don't think L/R makes XLN's speed faster. It makes her REACTION TIME faster when using Jade Maiden, and since the Jade Maiden is complimentary, it happens that there will be no conflict of moves hindering execution. But it's not like if you had L/R, then you automatically get a speed boost in your strike speed. DFBB is another matter all together, DFBB is fast overall-- striking, movement, reaction.

All that quote is saying is that one person using 2 techniques via L/R is faster than if 2 people were using the same techniques because no matter how interlinked, 2 people thinking and reacting is not the same as if one person own mental process. By this definition alone, GJ would be able to replicate the same reaction time.

I agree that the vastly improved reaction time bit makes sense on its own... However, the novel also makes it quite clear that her attacks have become ridiculously fast compared to before - somehow 'speed of reaction' has translated over to 'speed of movement' , which makes no sense whatsoever.

XLN is fast, but shes not so much faster than the Mongol mercs that they can't react to her strikes before the sword juggling. I agree that part of the reason the Mercs were forced to only defend was that XLN was incredibly fast. But it was also because of the ingenuity of her Jade Maiden. Remember, this is a Greats lvl art-- as I just posted above once GJ had learned XL18P, the Jin flunkies also reacted to GJ the same way the Mongol Mercs were reacting to XLN.

The novel directly contradicts this - it says that her strokes were far too fast for them to make out, so that if they tried to react to her moves directly, they would be utterly defeated. They waved their weapons indiscriminately into an impenetrable wall so that they wouldn't need to react, and XLN with her weak internal power was unable to forcibly blast through that wall.

[PJ]

I also don't understand why XLN suddenly became so fast due to L/R Technique, when ZBT and GJ seem to have no such effect.

As for GWM needing 100 stances to defeat LMC, IIRC it was him operating in less than full capacity. Just remember this is the same guy who needs 30 stances to defeat Zhao Zhijing + Yin Zhiping, when operating at full capacity.

[ihavequestion]

Something must have happened when Maiden Jade Sword reaches absolute unison thanks to L/R Technique while other skills don't benefit from it that much.

[Snafu3721]

There was a thread where many of us debated XLN's speed
http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...d#.WXWhzIR96Uk

I admit that was around 10 years ago... and I wish I can change some of my arguments. They were not done very well =/

But it does cover the awkwardness of XLN's speed

[Snafu3721]

The novel directly contradicts this - it says that her strokes were far too fast for them to make out, so that if they tried to react to her moves directly, they would be utterly defeated. They waved their weapons indiscriminately into an impenetrable wall so that they wouldn't need to react, and XLN with her weak internal power was unable to forcibly blast through that wall.

This is one of the few times I can only argue on behalf of the logic, but I can't really defend the situation. Indeed XLN was ridiculously fast when compared to the Mongol Mercs. However, I think she still wasn't "DFBB" fast. Each of the Mercs can clash with her for around 20 or so stances in direct confrontation. None of them can gain an upper hand, but they can technically exchange stances. It was also mentioned part of the reason wasn't just due to her speed, but the ingenuity of Jade Maiden as a set (which XLN happens to be able to perform by herself).

Once the Mercs go into defensive move, they are able to defend against her speed, but can no longer make any offensive moves other than forcing her into a corner via their internal strength.

[PJ]

There was a thread where many of us debated XLN's speed
http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...d#.WXWhzIR96Uk

I admit that was around 10 years ago... and I wish I can change some of my arguments. They were not done very well =/

But it does cover the awkwardness of XLN's speed

Thanks for that. It was a great discussion. I thought your input was well composed

It seems what we have here is an eternal UI: Unresolved Inconsistency.

[CancerLuna]

This is one of the few times I can only argue on behalf of the logic, but I can't really defend the situation. Indeed XLN was ridiculously fast when compared to the Mongol Mercs. However, I think she still wasn't "DFBB" fast. Each of the Mercs can clash with her for around 20 or so stances in direct confrontation. None of them can gain an upper hand, but they can technically exchange stances. It was also mentioned part of the reason wasn't just due to her speed, but the ingenuity of Jade Maiden as a set (which XLN happens to be able to perform by herself).

Once the Mercs go into defensive move, they are able to defend against her speed, but can no longer make any offensive moves other than forcing her into a corner via their internal strength.

This might be one of the times where you reach the conclusion first, and then draw the dots leading up to the conclusion.

A quick rationale is without jade maiden, fighting with normal sword techniques, one can't move as fast as they'd like because they also have to cover up their weakpoints (or at the very least leave room for it). (Think madman swinging his sword wildly, full of holes but would technically be swinging at the fastest possible).

With L/R Jade Maiden, she's able to execute all stances extremely fast since there's no holes in the MA.

I'm not sure why we heavily debate this point though, XLN is depicted to be extremely fast (probably as fast as the Greats (YG examples above)) which is a huge compliment to her anyways (to be as fast as a Great).

It's like LHC's poke 15 eyes in a 'split second'. Literally impossible, but we gotta think he did it somehow.

This is an old thread, but I don't buy the 'intelligence wins' arguments. XLN is NOT a dummy when it comes to fighting. HR just isn't going to trick her way into a win.

[Snafu3721]

I fully agree that XLN chongyang palace speed feat is of those things that has to be accepted much like the LHC stab. But it's just so inconsistent relative to the rest of the martial arts, it throws off everything else in the story. As mentioned before, I am trying to examine the logic so it's more like deductive argument. Goes back to if L/R gave XLN the speed boost, then ZBT and GJ should be equally if not faster (due to higher internal).

When I argue on behalf of HR, I don't mean she'll use intelligence to outsmart XLN. It's more like tactical intelligence. Just reading how HR wins her fights versus QQC and LMC. It's not just a duel of martial arts, it's a duel of tactics. XLN is not stupid, but she's no martial prodigy in the sense of strategic fighting. And she is so emotionless and simple minded, she can't outwit an opponent like YG or HR would in battle.

People like HR, and YG to a lesser extent, know how to: use the surroundings (formations), put people into disadvantages corners, and psychologically disturb the opponent. I don't think feel XLN can do that or react to it because whenever you read any excerpt of XLN's mental process when she's fighting, it's always "XLN doesn't feel animosity/anger/etc. She's just swinging her sword"

Going back to DC comics as a reference-- Batman isn't just "smarter" than his opponents, he has this "fighting wit/tactical sense". This allows him to constantly evaluate his own weakness/strengths against his opponents and trying to figure out a way to beat the opponent. I think HR is capable of this while XLN isn't

[CancerLuna]

I fully agree that XLN chongyang palace speed feat is of those things that has to be accepted much like the LHC stab. But it's just so inconsistent relative to the rest of the martial arts, it throws off everything else in the story. As mentioned before, I am trying to examine the logic so it's more like deductive argument. Goes back to if L/R gave XLN the speed boost, then ZBT and GJ should be equally if not faster (due to higher internal).

One explanation is that they already hit a plateau in speed (just thinking about ROCH) so it's more like a multiplier with diminising returns.

And/or that GJ/ZBT MA doesn't really prioritize speed, so *speeding* up just doesn't occur to them.

Another is that the synergy between LR and Jade Maiden can produce faster speeds than LR+Random other martial arts. Afterall we do have MAs that are just randomly faster than others (like Sunflower MA).

When I argue on behalf of HR, I don't mean she'll use intelligence to outsmart XLN. It's more like tactical intelligence. Just reading how HR wins her fights versus QQC and LMC. It's not just a duel of martial arts, it's a duel of tactics. XLN is not stupid, but she's no martial prodigy in the sense of strategic fighting. And she is so emotionless and simple minded, she can't outwit an opponent like YG or HR would in battle.

People like HR, and YG to a lesser extent, know how to: use the surroundings (formations), put people into disadvantages corners, and psychologically disturb the opponent. I don't think feel XLN can do that or react to it because whenever you read any excerpt of XLN's mental process when she's fighting, it's always "XLN doesn't feel animosity/anger/etc. She's just swinging her sword"

Going back to DC comics as a reference-- Batman isn't just "smarter" than his opponents, he has this "fighting wit/tactical sense". This allows him to constantly evaluate his own weakness/strengths against his opponents and trying to figure out a way to beat the opponent. I think HR is capable of this while XLN isn't

I think that's true to an extent, but I also feel like then you'd have to reconcile GJ vs YG since arguably, the gap is even lower between the two (or even no gap at all).

I think it's fair to assume Smarts/Tactics can play a role in a 1v1 fight but it's just too variable to really assume one way or the other. I'd rather just think about MA vs MA no tricks or weird circumstances.

It's along the same lines (somewhat) as why if I were to place DY against anyone in the DGSD novel, I would just place him with fully working 6msj even though a meta-property of his character is that his 6msj only works randomly.

It might also be more interesting from a 'let them fight 100 times and which would win more of the 100 fights'. YG's Sad Palms are incredibly strange (the same way the persians were to ZWJ), and it's probably more likely YG may win initial encounters more (if comparing him cross novels/etc) but in a best of 100, would result in a different conclusion.

[tape]

I agree that using intelligence is sometimes a cop-out, but I think it should be factored into certain characters and martial arts.

Things like Dugu 9 Jian and Huang Rong's intelligence are still constant factors in my mind even though they're situational; it's actually possible that out of 100 fights they may actually adapt even better and win more fights along along with the fact that in the initial fight they may perform better with surprise tactics. I.e. they have a huge advantage in fights 1-10, may drop off a bit after, but again have a huge advantage in 90-100. (random numbers)

Other arts like Zhuo Ziruo's Bone Claws are useless once figured out, and some intelligent fighters aren't necessarily better/worse as time goes on, but there is some intent on certain arts/characters performing better solely due to intelligence.

GJ and YG as most agree are evenly matched, but I'd place my money on YG if they fought a thousand times.

[laurenhuang]

I fully agree that XLN chongyang palace speed feat is of those things that has to be accepted much like the LHC stab. But it's just so inconsistent relative to the rest of the martial arts, it throws off everything else in the story. As mentioned before, I am trying to examine the logic so it's more like deductive argument. Goes back to if L/R gave XLN the speed boost, then ZBT and GJ should be equally if not faster (due to higher internal).

When I argue on behalf of HR, I don't mean she'll use intelligence to outsmart XLN. It's more like tactical intelligence. Just reading how HR wins her fights versus QQC and LMC. It's not just a duel of martial arts, it's a duel of tactics. XLN is not stupid, but she's no martial prodigy in the sense of strategic fighting. And she is so emotionless and simple minded, she can't outwit an opponent like YG or HR would in battle.

People like HR, and YG to a lesser extent, know how to: use the surroundings (formations), put people into disadvantages corners, and psychologically disturb the opponent. I don't think feel XLN can do that or react to it because whenever you read any excerpt of XLN's mental process when she's fighting, it's always "XLN doesn't feel animosity/anger/etc. She's just swinging her sword"

Going back to DC comics as a reference-- Batman isn't just "smarter" than his opponents, he has this "fighting wit/tactical sense". This allows him to constantly evaluate his own weakness/strengths against his opponents and trying to figure out a way to beat the opponent. I think HR is capable of this while XLN isn't

I agree with you!
I would think that if HR does not use any tactics, or Wits during the fight, she might not win XLN, as i feel that with regards to skills, XLN is better.
If HR does use any psychology and formation like what you mentioned, XLN will lose hands down.
But it seems like for HR, Skills + Wits come in a package. LOL

But then When XLN do not feel any animosity/anger, perhaps Psychological disturbance from the other party might not affect her much as well?

[Doc Kwok]

I fully agree that XLN chongyang palace speed feat is of those things that has to be accepted much like the LHC stab. But it's just so inconsistent relative to the rest of the martial arts, it throws off everything else in the story. As mentioned before, I am trying to examine the logic so it's more like deductive argument. Goes back to if L/R gave XLN the speed boost, then ZBT and GJ should be equally if not faster (due to higher internal).

When I argue on behalf of HR, I don't mean she'll use intelligence to outsmart XLN. It's more like tactical intelligence. Just reading how HR wins her fights versus QQC and LMC. It's not just a duel of martial arts, it's a duel of tactics. XLN is not stupid, but she's no martial prodigy in the sense of strategic fighting. And she is so emotionless and simple minded, she can't outwit an opponent like YG or HR would in battle.

In both the battles mentioned, HR was talking a lot, and her opponents were responding to her, which was why they fell for her tricks.

XLN though... She is arguably the most focused character in JY novels, and potentially one of the most single-minded. If she thought that 'HR must die', and knew for a fact that YG is safe and sound, she would probably just go straight for the kill and ignore anything HR has to say.

[CancerLuna]

I agree that using intelligence is sometimes a cop-out, but I think it should be factored into certain characters and martial arts.

Things like Dugu 9 Jian and Huang Rong's intelligence are still constant factors in my mind even though they're situational; it's actually possible that out of 100 fights they may actually adapt even better and win more fights along along with the fact that in the initial fight they may perform better with surprise tactics. I.e. they have a huge advantage in fights 1-10, may drop off a bit after, but again have a huge advantage in 90-100. (random numbers)

I do agree though I think there's also a factor/trait for some characters where they are somewhat immune to these tactics/intelligence plays.

Kind of like the opposite side the same coin. In my head cannon, XLN (and GJ) is in that group where they are somewhat immune to the street smart plays (the same way GWM/QQR/ZWJ are NOT in that group).

Other arts like Zhuo Ziruo's Bone Claws are useless once figured out, and some intelligent fighters aren't necessarily better/worse as time goes on, but there is some intent on certain arts/characters performing better solely due to intelligence.

GJ and YG as most agree are evenly matched, but I'd place my money on YG if they fought a thousand times.

FZ vs RWX comes to mind. He did beat FZ with a 'trick' (and I'd probably put RWX in the same category as HR/YG.) but if we had a FZ vs RWX thread, I'd side strongly in favor of FZ being superior (then again, the novel explicitly mentioned his superiority).

With GJ/YG reconcillation, I think it's the fact that their MA levels (ignoring intelligence) are extremely close. If we think intelligence plays a strong role, YG should mop the floor with GJ pretty ~easily~. I don't think this is the case.

IMO, the gap between pure MA between XLN and HR is bigger than the gap between GJ/YG.

As a site note: I think it was a little strange of JY to say XLN didn't improve at all during those 16 years (and we as readers believe this).
She's a martial artist training her entire life with absolutely nothing to do.

[MilesJT]

I've already argued this on a seperate thread

I don't think L/R makes XLN's speed faster. It makes her REACTION TIME faster when using Jade Maiden, and since the Jade Maiden is complimentary, it happens that there will be no conflict of moves hindering execution. But it's not like if you had L/R, then you automatically get a speed boost in your strike speed. DFBB is another matter all together, DFBB is fast overall-- striking, movement, reaction.




All that quote is saying is that one person using 2 techniques via L/R is faster than if 2 people were using the same techniques because no matter how interlinked, 2 people thinking and reacting is not the same as if one person own mental process. By this definition alone, GJ would be able to replicate the same reaction time.

XLN is fast, but shes not so much faster than the Mongol mercs that they can't react to her strikes before the sword juggling. I agree that part of the reason the Mercs were forced to only defend was that XLN was incredibly fast. But it was also because of the ingenuity of her Jade Maiden. Remember, this is a Greats lvl art-- as I just posted above once GJ had learned XL18P, the Jin flunkies also reacted to GJ the same way the Mongol Mercs were reacting to XLN.

Regarding your comment on Trilogy fighters, there is no proof that XLN is much faster than any of the Greats. Again covered in another thread. If that's the case, then she would be able to mow down ALL of the Greats on a one on one fight if they can't dispatch her using a roar or some kind of Area attack. XLN is fast, but not mind numbing fast like DFBB was to LHC and co.
There were times that Greats lvl fighters moved so fast that a Mongol Merc level person simply can't see or react. In fact, there were even bizarre feats of speed that even XLN perhaps could not reproduce. One example is how fast YG slapped the Mongol Mercs when drinking with HYS. Another is how fast YG is able to switch out KeZhenE with a Stone statue from a large distance when the Jin Flunkies were about to strike KeZhenE to death.

1. The Novel Said that XLN is the Fastest Character.
2. XLN may not be internally strong... but she was weaken, dying... nearly till the end of novel... yet no one is able to fully got drop on her. Many characters have got a drop on HR more than I could remember.
3. JMPM is a fast martial. All skill sets of Ancient Tombs are speed based. And XLN is a fast character. L/R is the equation. This is part where 1+1 makes 2. GJ is not fast. None of skills set he owned are "fast skills". ZBT is fast character but his skills are not a fast skill set. In the end... one that can truly benefit from L/R is XLN alone.
4. HR isn't much stronger than LMC. If LMC wasn't poison. And the 2 truly fights... the outcome could be either way, cause while HR own a stronger skill set, LMC have stronger internal + experience in fighting far beyond HR. I think we all can debate here that all Ancient Tomb's member are having profound internal energy than others. Also LMC should be faster than HR... cause she was able to block all HR's moves and even strikes back relentlessly. Those who fought L/R-XLN all has been push into 100% defensive mode, purely because of XLN's speed.
5. HR is smart. But where is the part that proven her to "Super Smart"? I don't remember seeing that. Also HR has been trick by YG a couple times too. She is also been trick by YK as well as tricked by OYK And she was never outsmart any smart people. All the characters I've seen her got a drop on, are dump people or normal people.
I think the impression we all got, think that HR is super smart is because we always seeing her hanging with dump people like GJ. When GWM caught her daughter, there isn't much HR could do. And even with her intelligence, her martial, her rock formations, she was practically death if it wasn't for YK helping her out when she was dealing with GWM. XLN on the other hands, never been push to a corner by GWM, at least not completely the GWM forced HR.
6. HR is fast but she is not one of fastest characters. She was just beyond average. Her Qing Gong was no where near XLN. Her skill set wasn't fast enough to be able force LMC into retreating either. LMC was always at Offensive Mode while countered all HR moves. While she could certainly rely on her intelligence... she actually needed time to think and that is something she will never have if she was Dueling XLN.
7. XLN defeats so many people... yet there are people doubted her.... HR, who was it that she truly defeated them?
In early novel, XLN can't defeat GWM but she hold her own against him. HR can't even hold her own against him.
In the middle of the novel, XLN totally crush GWM and in dying state, she totally crushed GZJ despite her attempt trying not to hurt him, in the same time, HR wasn't able to do anything to GWM and she wasn't able to hold GZJ down.
8. At the end of the novel, XLN reverted to her old training method... she should have deserve more credit for this.
Cuz 16 years of None Stop Cultivation... that is something to consider. HR is never cultivate, or at least I never saw she did... yet everyone believe her internal energy is super strong, base on what? Because her skills set?
Her skills set are below all of XLN's skill set. Cause HR's skill set come from the 2nd greats, her father & northern beggar. XLN's skill set, come from one of the "Two most Powerful Fighters". Unlike HYS & HQG, their skills set are invented... XLN's skill set comes directly from LCY cause her student, XLN's teacher, invented nothing. I would like to think that LCY's skill sets are better than East & North Greats. Proven for the fact that JMPM is unbeatable.
9. HR doesn't have a strong foundation of internal energy, she never cultivate, yet somehow she is super strong, or so what everyone keep debating here. XLN cultivating nearly if not her whole life... and based on foundation of her martial that is immensely more powerful than others.. somehow she is weaker? Does this assumption makes sense to anyone?

[Snafu3721]

@MilesJT

Refer to my arguments for this thread and previous threads
Covers most of your points. If you want go into detail, let's discuss

regarding your points

7. XLN defeats so many people... yet there are people doubted her.... HR, who was it that she truly defeated them?

That's not very good logic to use for this argument. That's like saying
1) GJ was not defeated at all in ROCH and even fought GWM+Mongols!!. Why would anyone doubt his amazing ability to win all fights?
2) With HR, who did she lose to? She also never lost a fight in ROCH. Why would anyone doubt her?

2. XLN may not be internally strong... but she was weaken, dying... nearly till the end of novel.

When HR engaged with LMC, she was also weakened from just having a baby

If LMC wasn't poison. And the 2 truly fights... the outcome could be either way, cause while HR own a stronger skill set, LMC have stronger internal + experience in fighting far beyond HR. I think we all can debate here that all Ancient Tomb's member are having profound internal energy than others.

There was never any indication that LMC has more internal or experience beyond HR. IN fact during their fight, it was never shown that LMC was faster.

Also, AT internal has not been demonstrated to be exceptionally strong. Because XLN + YG were noted to be WEAK in internal relative to the QZ7. And if we want to compare... LMC has AT internal; HR has access to QZ, Peach Blossom, and 9-Yin (which is definitely superior to AT)

[Western Eccentric]

I would rate them..
Lv 70 Xiao Longnu (pre and post 16 years with L/R Hand Skill)
Lv 58 Huang Rong (full health pre/post 16 years)
Lv 48 Huang Rong (weakened)
Lv 48 Li Mochou
Lv 45 Xiao Longnu (pre L/R Hand Skill)
#JustIMHO
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