Ah Qing, one of the most prolific martial arts geniuses in the JY canon

[JigSta]

We only live once. The risk could pay off. Carpe Diem and all that
Although she'll definately be 'wearing the pants' of the relationship.

[sarakoth]

How can SYM not be in the JY canon if the 7th Freak was an expert at Yue Maiden Swordplay?

[PumpkinPi]

Ah Qing = DGQB? =D

[Yang Guo]

...sure
not like it ever really said DGQB was a man.... but that'd be one seriously old bird... and where did the ape go?

[sarakoth]

...sure
not like it ever really said DGQB was a man.... but that'd be one seriously old bird... and where did the ape go?

Maybe it wasn't THE BIRD, maybe the birds passed on DGQB's swordplay through the generations.

[sixdays]

Ah Qing vs Zhuo BuFan.

it had to be said.

[Yang Guo]

Maybe it wasn't THE BIRD, maybe the birds passed on DGQB's swordplay through the generations.

That would mean there were more divine condors for there to be later generations...

[jackattack]

Ah Ching, the heroine of Jin Yong's short story, Sword of the Yueh Maiden, is not that well known to mainstream Jin Yong enthusiasts. The story is set in the 5th century B.C. around the time of the Warring States period in Chinese history.

Note: The "Yueh" character is the same as the "Viet" in present day Vietnam, as the kingdom of Yueh was formed by aboriginal peoples in Southern China. Many scholars believe that the present day Vietnamese are the descendants of the kingdom of Yue. Therefore, Yueh Maiden Swordsmanship is not connected to the Yueh Maiden Heart Sutra or Yueh Maiden Swordsmanship of ROCH and XAJH. That "Yueh" character refers to "jade".

Continuing on, many dismiss the swordsmanship displayed by Ah Ching to be quite elementary, and not exceeding the level of around a 3rd generation Taoist of Quanzhen (around Wan Ziping's level). The arguments they bring forth are that there were no true martial arts displayed in that story and furthermore, she definitely had no internal energy cultivation and all her martial arts were merely external sword stances. I will proceed to argue that those points are completely incorrect and that Ah Ching was not only a prolific martial arts expert but also a martial arts prodigy in her own right.

The first point we have to take into consideration is that there was no real "wulin" or "jianghu" during the Spring and Autumn and Warring States period. The entire world was engulfed in war and kingdoms rose and fell in a matter of years. Many of the wuxia stories we are accustomed to have a "wulin" community because at the very least there was a single government which was set in place. If the entire world was engulfed in constant warfare, most likely all the adept and skilled fighters of the time would choose to side with their native kingdoms and serve in their own kingdom's armies. They didn't have the luxury of forming sword schools or sects and clans as in the later dynasties, because every day their lives were at stake. At any time, another kingdom could be knocking at their door asking for invasion. Thusly, it is very logical to conclude that there existed no real "wulin" underworld community and all the skilled fighters of the era were in the service of their kingdom's military.

In the first half of the story, eight swordsmen from the Kingdom of Wu visited the Kingdom of Yueh and thoroughly embarassed all the swordsmen there. The Wu swordsmen fought in formations which coincided with Sun Tzu's Art of War where a few would specialize in defense while the rest focused on offense to outnumber the opponents. It was said that their swordsmanship was invincible during the era.

When Ah Ching first makes her appearance, she bests all eight of them effortlessly making each one of the battle-hardened veterans lose an eye. Her movements were described as too fast for the eye to perceive and her technique was similar to the theories of Dugu Jiujian in which she used simple moves which perfectly countered her opponent's attacks. In addition, she did all this with just a bamboo stick.

The next instance that we see Ah Ching in action is when she practices with her Grandpa White. It turns out Ah Ching claims that her sword skills were not taught to her at all. She just started stick fighting with bamboo sticks against a giant white ape at the age of 13. They would try to score hits on each other and at first Grandpa White would win but after a while, Ah Ching won every contest. When Feng Li sees Ah Ching and Grandpa White spar, it was described as just a green blur and a white blur encircling each other. This type of description warrants incredible lightness skill. Similar comparisons of a person being described as a blur moving around were used for Dongfang Bubai and Little Dragon Girl, who are both considered TOP experts in speed. But that is not the extent of Ah Ching's swordsmanship. At one point, Grandpa White sped up his attacks even more but Ah Ching then slowed down her attacks by standing still. Each attack that Grandpa White made, Ah Ching was able to thrust first and force Grandpa White to retreat. Her sword technique seemed VERY similar to Dugu Jiujian in that it always attacks and perceives holes in the opponent's moves and exploits them, forcing the opponent to have no choice but to retreat or defend.

Ah Ching was next summoned to the court of the Yueh kingdom to spar against 20 of their best swordsmen, she defeated them singlehandedly. She then defeated another 30, and another 30. Those swordsmen, who were able to just merely experience her sword technique, experienced enough to slightly mimic her and teach the rest of the Yueh soldiers. With that miniscule amount of Ah Ching's swordsmanship, the Yueh soldiers were able to easily crush the Wu army, the strongest army at the time.

At the conclusion of the story, Ah Ching assaults the palace of Feng Li which was heavily guarded by 1000 armored soldiers and 1000 elite swordsmen. All Feng Li heard when Ah Ching stormed in were the sounds of weapons dropping. In a matter of moments, Ah Ching swept through all of them singlehandedly, 2000 soldiers were not enough to stop her.

This is one of the rare occasions where we actually see a single fighter take on literally thousands of troops. Although many instances, it is mentioned in novels that a person is the equivalent of several thousand troops, Ah Ching actually DOES it and takes down 2000 soldiers singlehandedly and without breaking a sweat, also in the matter of moments. It wasn't like she was just defending either, she was the one ATTACKING and sweeping through the thousands of soldiers. We can only guess as to how many thousands of soldiers it would take to even make Ah Ching flinch. All this again, with a BAMBOO STICK.

One other instance of thousands of soldiers versus martial arts experts was in the ending chapters of DGSD. A group of several hundred wulin fighters assembled to help free Xiao Feng from the Liao palace. Even in that fight, the several hundred soldiers struggled to keep back the several thousand Liao soldiers. We can use this as a point of comparison as to just how high Ah Ching's martial arts level was.

To answer the last question about Ah Ching not having internal energy, when Ah Ching finally breaks through to Feng Li's room where his beloved Si Shi was held, she points the tip of her bamboo stick towards Si Shi. Ah Ching then marveled at how beautiful Si Shi actually was and decides to leave the couple alone. Later, Si Shi reached at her chest where Ah Ching pointed, and it CLEARLY states that even though Ah Ching's bamboo stick never touched her, the pure sword chi which emanated from her bamboo stick had injured her. Ah Ching was able to generate sword chi which is an obvious sign that her internal energy cultivation was quite high. Not even many of the top tier swordsman in the other JY novels were able to generate sword chi.

Now for the most shocking part. Ah Ching was described as a young maiden. She was most likely in her late teens, early twenties. To be THAT young and have that kind of incredible martial arts skill, sword chi, speed is ridiculous. The more amazing part is that she had NO MASTER who taught her and NO MARTIAL ARTS MANUAL to learn from. All her skills were gained from playfighting with the white ape, and from that in a few years she was able to derive godly high levels of sword technique, Dongfang Bubai levels of speed and lightness skill, and even sword chi, all at such a young age. Moreover, she created these skills HERSELF. The ape and her both were not adept at the sword when they first started playfighting, so this is NOT a case similar to the Condor teaching Yang Guo. Ah Ching created her Yueh Maiden Swordsmanship herself through practice and sparring witht the ape.

What other characters were this prolific in the martial arts that, in the span of at MOST ten years, created their own sword techniques from basically nothing. Ah Ching is one of the greatest martial arts prodigies of Jin Yong's canon. She is my favorite Jin Yong heroine and I hope after reading this, you will see her in a whole different light as well. Thanks for reading!

Please don't exagerate the facts. I don't think that u are lying on purpose, but many of the statements that you have made are simply false.

I admire your passion for Ah Qing, but you have twisted some of the facts. Here's what REALLY happened.

Ah Qing DASHED THROUGH 2000 guards. DASHED THROUGH. Along the way, she pricked people on the wrists and their weapons fell. Again, she RAN THROUGH the guards.

Note: Dashing through 2000 guards and disarming the ones around her along the way is NOT the same as disarming ALL of the soldiers. Dashing through 2000 guards is also FAR FROM THE SAME as fighting all 2000 at the same time.

Example: Yang Guo has dashed through the Mongolian Cavalry before, killing people along the way. Does that mean he took on the ENTIRE MONGOLIAN CAVALRY??????????????? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It just means he rushed through them!!!!!!!!! That's wat Ah Qin did!!!!!! impressive, but not THAT impressive.

therefore, ah qin DID NOT "disarm thousands of soldiers", like u claim. maybe 30, or 40, but who cares???

Note: two thousands soldiers were not enough to STOP her. thats it. She RAN THROUGH THEM.

Ah Qin rushed through palace guards armed with swords.

Xiao Feng, Xu Zhu and Duan Yu rush through the LIAO ARMY to capture their king, Yang Guo and Guo Jing rush through the MONGOLIAN CALVALRY. ( Yang Guo killed the king with a freaking rock.) which sounds more impressive??

When the martial artists were trying to rescue Xiao Feng, they were KEEPING BACK the SEVERAL thousand LIAO soldiers. KEEPING BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY harder then just rushing through 2000 palace guards.

If Xiao Feng or Yang Guo wanted to they could rush through thousands of people as well, as I have proved and stated already.

MANY have feats that are >>> than rushing through palace guards.

SO, ur statement: " This is one of the rare occasions where we actually see a single fighter take on literally thousands of troops. " is.........

FALSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also, regarding ur statement of Ah Qin's inner power....... what u said is simply not true. the chi from her bamboo stick "hurt" a weak lady- Xi Shi. HOW IN THE WORLD IS THAT IMPRESSIVE?????????

Maybe its not even chi. maybe its just wind. compared to Xiao Feng using the Chi of his palm to kill people standing 30 feet away and Duan Yu shooting Chi with his fingers and slaughtering martial arts masters, Ah Qin is nothing.

You have SEVRELY underestimated the other fighters of Wu Lin, if u think Ah Qin has better inner power then them. And don't tell me thats not what u meant. You said:" Not even many of the top tier swordsman in the other JY novels were able to generate sword chi. "

one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard.

Ah Qin is fast, skilled, and quick. But there isn't even any indication that she has any inner power at all.

Please don't let favoritism cloud your judgement.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Ah Qin is simply not that great if u look closely.

[bliss]

Please don't exagerate the facts. I don't think that u are lying on purpose, but many of the statements that you have made are simply false.

I admire your passion for Ah Qing, but you have twisted some of the facts. Here's what REALLY happened.

Ah Qing DASHED THROUGH 2000 guards. DASHED THROUGH. Along the way, she pricked people on the wrists and their weapons fell. Again, she RAN THROUGH the guards.

Oh I'm sorry Mr. Time Traveler, is that what REALLY happened?

Actually, that just sounds like your interpretation.

If you were skilled enough to just "dash" through thousands of soldiers, why would you take the time to disarm them in such a way that the incessant sounds of weapons were unending? Why wouldn't you just, you know, DASH past them. Much quicker, much easier as well ...

I'm guessing jack is in the 2nd or 3rd level Quanzhen taoist group.

[PJ]

Easy with the exclamation marks, buddy. We can read your words just fine.

OK, so I decided to read for myself the passage where Ah Qing disarmed the soldiers. Just a few comments:

therefore, ah qin DID NOT "disarm thousands of soldiers", like u claim. maybe 30, or 40, but who cares???

From the description of the endless sound of weapons dropping, I'd say it seemed to be a lot more than 40 soldiers.

Xiao Feng, Xu Zhu and Duan Yu rush through the LIAO ARMY to capture their king

If you recall, it was Xuzhu and Duan Yu who rushed past 300 soldiers to capture Yelu Hongji. That's only 15% of the soldiers Ah Qing rushed through, and it took TWO people (Duan and Xuzhu) to do that.

[jackattack]

Oh I'm sorry Mr. Time Traveler, is that what REALLY happened?

Actually, that just sounds like your interpretation.

If you were skilled enough to just "dash" through thousands of soldiers, why would you take the time to disarm them in such a way that the incessant sounds of weapons were unending? Why wouldn't you just, you know, DASH past them. Much quicker, much easier as well ...

I'm guessing jack is in the 2nd or 3rd level Quanzhen taoist group.

Oh hahaha, you are so funny..... NOT.

When you dash through an army there will be attacks comming at you. Of course you have to disarm some people to protect yourself. Common sense.

Again, it does not mean she disarmed ALL of the soldiers, like you claim. I'm sure she disarmed quite a few people, but you claimed she disarmed ALL 2000 guards. That's just ridiculous.

There, I've just toppled your argument..... next time, use common sense when trying to convince people of something.

How about you try basing your argument on something other than fanboytism and utter favoritism.

Care to address my other claims before you start making lame jokes? I've crushed every single one of your claims with evidences.

And what did you do? You asked me a question that a 5 year old could answer, and then you called me " mr. time traveller." Nice comeback, but you lost.

[jackattack]

Easy with the exclamation marks, buddy. We can read your words just fine.

OK, so I decided to read for myself the passage where Ah Qing disarmed the soldiers. Just a few comments:



From the description of the endless sound of weapons dropping, I'd say it seemed to be a lot more than 40 soldiers.



If you recall, it was Xuzhu and Duan Yu who rushed past 300 soldiers to capture Yelu Hongji. That's only 15% of the soldiers Ah Qing rushed through, and it took TWO people (Duan and Xuzhu) to do that.

If you recall, Xuzhu and Duan Yu rushed through them effortlessly without breaking a sweat, captured the king, and rushed BACK through them again, and, Jin Yong even stated there was NO WAY IN HEAVEN those soldiers stood a chance.

Xu Zhu and Duan Yu didn't even have to lift a finger to get past those soldiers. ( they were both barehanded ). Well, ok fine, Xu Zhu simply grabbed them and tossed them around like they were babies.

AS I have explained before, ah qin does not have feats that go any where near Yang Guo, who could not be stopped by thousands of mongolian cavalry. ( he proceeded to kill the king with a rock, btw, which I HIGHLY doubt ah qin could do).

Oh and by the way, it was the mighty LIAO ARMY TRYING TO LAY DOWN THEIR LIVES TO PROTECT THEIR KING.

[PJ]

If you recall, Xuzhu and Duan Yu rushed through them effortlessly without breaking a sweat, captured the king, and rushed BACK through them again, and, Jin Yong even stated there was NO WAY IN HEAVEN those soldiers stood a chance.

Jin Yong wrote no such description as "no way in heaven" (not in the 2nd edition, anyway), so I'm not sure where you got it. As for "rushing" through the soldiers the 2nd time, Uhh, after they captured the king, do you think the soldiers would really charge at them at full force and put the king in jeopardy?

Xu Zhu and Duan Yu didn't even have to lift a finger to get past those soldiers. ( they were both barehanded ). Well, ok fine, Xu Zhu simply grabbed them and tossed them around like they were babies.

Which is nowhere near as swift as Ah Qing's disarming of soldiers in a single file.

Think about it, if you have to get past a bunch of people, which is more more impressive, dodging left and right while picking up and throwing people out of your way, or dashing through them like they don't exist? I get the impression that's what Ah Qing did, and to me that is more impressive.

Oh and by the way, it was the mighty LIAO ARMY.

Yes, but again, it's 2 people doing 15% of 1 person's job. That means Xuzhu and Duan Yu each did about 7.5% of Ah Qing's job. To make Duan/Xuzhu's feat somewhat equivalent to Ah Qing's feat, each Liao soldier would have to be about 13 times more powerful than a Yue soldier faced by Ah Qing, which I kinda doubt can be the case.

[jackattack]

Jin Yong wrote no such description as "no way in heaven" (not in the 2nd edition, anyway), so I'm not sure where you got it. As for "rushing" through the soldiers the 2nd time, Uhh, after they captured the king, do you think the soldiers would really charge at them at full force and put the king in jeopardy?



Which is nowhere near as swift as Ah Qing's disarming of soldiers in a single file.

Think about it, if you have to get past a bunch of people, which is more more impressive, dodging left and right while picking up and throwing people out of your way, or dashing through them like they don't exist? I get the impression that's what Ah Qing did, and to me that is more impressive.



Yes, but again, it's 2 people doing 15% of 1 person's job. That means Xuzhu and Duan Yu each did about 7.5% of Ah Qing's job. To make Duan/Xuzhu's feat somewhat equivalent to Ah Qing's feat, each Liao soldier would have to be about 13 times more powerful than a Yue soldier faced by Ah Qing, which I kinda doubt can be the case.

Still it was way harder for Xu Zhu and Duan Yu because the Liao Army was surrounding the king and crowded together.

there were 1000 guards guarding the palace against ah qin but the palace is huge so the guards would be separated, not crowded.

anyways I'm done with this thread.

The claim that ah qin is the most prolific martial artist ever in the JY universe is simply false, weather we like it or not. afterall, if all hope is lost, good old sweeper monk would come and use her as a broomstick.

[shortsight]

Still it was way harder for Xu Zhu and Duan Yu because the Liao Army was surrounding the king and crowded together.

there were 1000 guards guarding the palace against ah qin but the palace is huge so the guards would be separated, not crowded.

anyways I'm done with this thread.

The claim that ah qin is the most prolific martial artist ever in the JY universe is simply false, weather we like it or not. afterall, if all hope is lost, good old sweeper monk would come and use her as a broomstick.

Seriously, are you matured enough for forum discussion? Do you need to resort to self interpretation, stuffing words into Jin Yong's mouth or novels, and force your opinion as absolute truth? Is this the way you engage in forum debate?

[jackattack]

Seriously, are you matured enough for forum discussion? Do you need to resort to self interpretation, stuffing words into Jin Yong's mouth or novels, and force your opinion as absolute truth? Is this the way you engage in forum debate?

I didn't force my opinion upon anyone. I contradicted Bliss's ridiculous post with actual evidences. If you don't agree, then stop crying and start debating with me. How did I " stuff words into jinyong's mouth?" You mean, when I offered specific evidences to back myself up? I engage in forum debate by proving my statements. All i've seen YOU do on the otherhand is make bold accusations and throw insults.

[Ren Wo Xing]

The fact that it is even arguable that a teenage girl with ZERO formal training in martial arts is capable of performing feats on a similar (if not higher) level as feats which perhaps only Duan Yu and Xu Zhu, two of the strongest protagonists in Jinyong literature (especially the latter), could perform, gives a high amount of credence to bliss's assertion that Ah Qing is the most prolific martial artist in Jinyong canon.

[jackattack]

The fact that it is even arguable that a teenage girl with ZERO formal training in martial arts is capable of performing feats on a similar (if not higher) level as feats which perhaps only Duan Yu and Xu Zhu, two of the strongest protagonists in Jinyong literature (especially the latter), could perform, gives a high amount of credence to bliss's assertion that Ah Qing is the most prolific martial artist in Jinyong canon.

Duan Yu had even less training then Ah Qin. ( Ah Qin was trained by old gorrila ). Duan Yu doesn't even need a sword, where as Ah Qin needs a bamboo stick. Take away her weapon and she's nothing. And no I don't think Ah Qin's feats are higher than Duan Yu and Xu Zhu because as I have already explained, Duan Yu didn't even have to lift a finger to get past those Liao soldiers who were laying down their lives to protect their emperor.
And then, again, Ah Qin's feats don't come anywhere even near to Yang Guo, who charged through thousands of Mongolian Cavalry, taking out people along the way, and then killed the Mongolian King with a freaking rock.
And then, last but not least, Bliss's claim that Ah Qin could match the mighty Sweeper Monk is just false. simple as that.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Duan Yu had even less training then Ah Qin. ( Ah Qin was trained by old gorrila ). Duan Yu doesn't even need a sword, where as Ah Qin needs a bamboo stick. Take away her weapon and she's nothing. And no I don't think Ah Qin's feats are higher than Duan Yu and Xu Zhu because as I have already explained, Duan Yu didn't even have to lift a finger to get past those Liao soldiers who were laying down their lives to protect their emperor.
And then, again, Ah Qin's feats don't come anywhere even near to Yang Guo, who charged through thousands of Mongolian Cavalry, taking out people along the way, and then killed the Mongolian King with a freaking rock.
And then, last but not least, Bliss's claim that Ah Qin could match the mighty Sweeper Monk is just false. simple as that.

Are you serious?

1) Ah Qing was not trained by the gorilla; it was specifically stated that starting out, neither of them knew any martial arts at all. The gorilla was NOT like Yang Guo's condor; it was an ordinary gorilla.
2) Duan Yu learned Lingboweibu from the Xiaoyao scroll, learned Beiming Shengong from the Xiaoyao scroll, then drained a bunch of internal energy until he was at Xiao Feng level. Ah Qing received no instructions/freebies whatsoever; everything she had, she came up with by herself, 100%.
3) All Duan Yu did was use Lingboweibu's intricate footsteps to essentially waltz his way through the army; it was pure LBWB, without any display of real martial arts (unlike Xu Zhu, who is a freaking tank).
4) Yang Guo did NOT march his way through 'thousands of Mongolians'; he rode on horseback, along with Yelu Qi, Xiao Longnu, Guo Fu, Guo Xiang, and 100 Song soldiers, and tore through a company of 200 bodyguards, the remaining bodyguards (number not described, but couldn't be much more than a few hundred), and then chased after Mengke Khan when the latter rode away on his Flying Cloud Horse. At that point, the latter was headed towards a legion of 10,000 soldiers, and it was stated that no matter how high Yang Guo's skills were, it would be impossible for him to harm the Khan.

Compare this to Ah Qing, who was able to pass through 2000 soldiers with absolute ease, while using a bamboo sword. 10,000 might have been difficult, but I doubt Jinyong would use the phrase '本领再高，也伤不着大汗了'. Once again, Ah Qing seems more impressive.

And again, all this from a teenage girl who had NO manuals, no Condor, no gallbladders, no free energy absorption...NOTHING but herself and an ordinary ape (as stated in the book) whom she played around.

Bliss is absolutely justified in his comments here. And for the record, bliss never claimed that Ah Qing could beat Sweeper Monk. Fewer strawman arguments, please.

[bliss]

Duan Yu had even less training then Ah Qin. ( Ah Qin was trained by old gorrila ).

Untrue. They learned through play-fighting with each other. The gorilla did not teach her. Eventually, Ah Qing's swordplay was so much higher than the gorilla that she didn't have to move anymore to counter-attack.

Duan Yu doesn't even need a sword, where as Ah Qin needs a bamboo stick. Take away her weapon and she's nothing. And no I don't think Ah Qin's feats are higher than Duan Yu and Xu Zhu because as I have already explained, Duan Yu didn't even have to lift a finger to get past those Liao soldiers who were laying down their lives to protect their emperor.

This is purely because of 6MSJ using invisible sword qi as its conduit. 6MSJ itself, as in its techniques, was never described as formless. And strictly speaking, Duan Yu's 6MSJ wasn't completely reliable anyway. He got past the Liao soldiers using qinggong (LBWB), not through martial arts superiority.

And then, again, Ah Qin's feats don't come anywhere even near to Yang Guo, who charged through thousands of Mongolian Cavalry, taking out people along the way, and then killed the Mongolian King with a freaking rock.
And then, last but not least, Bliss's claim that Ah Qin could match the mighty Sweeper Monk is just false. simple as that.

Yang Guo was on horseback with a whole company of people, XLN, GX, GF, YLQ and his battalion of a 100 or so soliders, along with the Divine Condor who was constantly flapping his wings knocking soldiers and stray arrows aside. So, in my opinion, no I don't really think Yang Guo's feat was more impressive.

We can agree to disagree but unless your name is Louis Cha, don't come off as if your opinion is cold hard fact.