[Du Gu seeking a win]

Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing

Oh, and why would Zhang Cuisan, the disciple of Zhang Sanfeng, not have as good judgement of his own master than Mie Jue? The Seven Hero's of Wudang, individually, esp. the older ones, were about on par with her; at most, half a level to a level beneath her abilities.

[quote=Ren Wo Xing]
Zhang Cuishan said nearly the -exact- same thing about Xie Xun, that only Zhang Sanfeng would be a match. And we know that Zhang Sanfeng>>>>Xie Xun.
/QUOTE]

*
Your (both) statements above are contradictory! Either ZCS could assess his Sifu's martial arts correctly or not.

[dgfds01]

[quote=Du Gu seeking a win]

Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing

Zhang Cuishan said nearly the -exact- same thing about Xie Xun, that only Zhang Sanfeng would be a match. And we know that Zhang Sanfeng>>>>Xie Xun.
/QUOTE]

*
Your (both) statements above are contradictory! Either ZCS could assess his Sifu's martial arts correctly or not.

It's not really contradictory. It could mean that while ZCS's assessment of Z3F's kungfu is lousy, it is no worst than Mie Jue's. I think that's what Ren Wo Xing means.

Zhang Cuishan said nearly the -exact- same thing about Xie Xun, that only Zhang Sanfeng would be a match. And we know that Zhang Sanfeng>>>>Xie Xun.

ZCS's assessment of his master's abilities are wrong.

Oh, and why would Zhang Cuisan, the disciple of Zhang Sanfeng, not have as good judgement of his own master than Mie Jue? The Seven Hero's of Wudang, individually, esp. the older ones, were about on par with her; at most, half a level to a level beneath her abilities.

Meaning: ZCS's assessment is at least as good as Mie Jue's.

Therefore, Mie Jue's assessment is just as wrong as ZCS's. Nothing contradictory about that.

[- L1n -]

Originally Posted by Dennis Chen

I would put 18 Dragon Palms on par with Tai Ji Quan. 18 Dragon Palms is on par with most of the other good kung fu (1 Yang Zhi, Ha Ma Gong, Tan Zhi Shen Tong) but like the mentioned kung fu, it doesn't guarantee a powerful fighter. And, it's been stated before that even Jin Yong has stated that 9 Yang = 9 Ying.

It's not how much kung fu you know (as Jin Lun Fa Wang told Yang Guo), it's how well you know it.

yeh true and since it's yg we r talking about here, not just any random off the sts.

[Ren Wo Xing]

What dfgds01 said. If even Zhang Cuisan, who had actually known and practiced with his master, misjudged the comparative abilities of his master and Xie Xun so badly, what chance does Mie Jue have?

And I still maintain that Zhang Sanfeng was basically used to describe 'the sky'. If anyone is better than everyone else, they just say that only Zhang Sanfeng can beat him.

Think of it this way. Zhang Sanfeng is power level 10. Most elites are power level 5. They meet a person who's power level 7, and they think, "Oh, wow, only ZSF can match him." Yes, that's true...but ZSF is still way above them.

[Du Gu seeking a win]

Originally Posted by Laviathan

Dunan is the weakest of the three monks

Zhang Wuji's internal power is more powerful than the three monks combined

*
I surely agree with Lav's above statement/assessment.
Now, I would assess the sum of the three monks' neigong (combined) as around double of ZSF's neigong. So Wu Ji's neigong should be more than two times ZSF's neigong.

Why does Lav put Wu Ji in the same neigong level of ZSF? That would mean each monk only has 33% of ZSF's neigong.

[Black Night Sea]

Dugu, when ZWJ met ZSF in Wudang, he transported 9YSG to ZSF’s body. According to his expertise, the inner energy is around the capacity of his master Jue Yuan and Guo Jing. As far as its proficiency is concerned, it’s far below his own. Unlike Mie Jue, ZSF is the one interacting with ZWJ’s inner energy. JY formed a generalisation through this narration. Let’s stick with it. This piece of info is half-way within Chapter 24, thanks to dgfds01 he’ll reach that stage of translating it for us in no time, won’t you?

With plenty of years available to him, you’d expect him to be greater than Guo Jing and Jue Yuan, by that not only do I mean inner-cultivation, study and practice in these years, but more importantly change his attitude and notch up his battle spirit. But let’s face it, anyone who’s got balls to compete with Xu Zhu’s inner energy is deemed a demented fool. It’s a complete joke how he achieved it and why Lady Luck was so fond of him. 100% of inner energy off one Xiao Yao Elder and 90% from the other 2, is as good as it gets. Feats such as surviving several ‘rock-splitting’ blows and ‘blade-resembled’ chops from JMZ, catapulting people in the air like a rag doll with pure qi alone, and flicking a pen almost beyond earth’s atmosphere (just to name a few) is taking the Mickey of martial arts. I couldn’t imagine ZWJ even with so much potential post-HSDS to ever reach godly status.

Btw, Nei Gong is the process and Nei Li is the actual matter.

[Dennis Chen]

Can we really trust the abilities Zhang Jun Bao to determine how powerful Guo Jing and Jue Yuan were?

[duguxiaojing]

Can we really trust the abilities Zhang Jun Bao to determine how powerful Guo Jing and Jue Yuan were?

No but as HP mentioned when Wj transfered inner power in Z3f's palms IIRC 3f felt the energy go into his hands (and saw a certain quality in his eyes) he made a comment to himslef on how the inner power was not as "pure" as his own but it was never ending or ceasing. Then JY as the narrator comments that in his life besides Gj,Gy and others (proboally YG,ZBT and the rest) he had never seen anyone else who had reached this level of inner power ,and in this generation besides himself he did not know that such another person existed. So if JY had intended for Wj to be 3x the likes of 3f and the rest of the greats why wouldnt he say something like "Z3f had never met anybody with this level of inner power before" or something like that or 3f knew that this youth's inner power surpassed even his own.

Now, I would assess the sum of the three monks' neigong (combined) as around double of ZSF's neigong. So Wu Ji's neigong should be more than two times ZSF's neigong.

This is a number game again we dont know how much of the inner power the monks have compared to Z3f.

[Zhuge Liang]

That is weird that all the series have MJ go to Z3F's birthday bash and all miss out that disciple of hers - Jing Xu. Instead on the way to the Great peak it is usually a nobody that the Green Bat kills.

[Laviathan]

Originally Posted by Du Gu seeking a win

*
I surely agree with Lav's above statement/assessment.
Now, I would assess the sum of the three monks' neigong (combined) as around double of ZSF's neigong. So Wu Ji's neigong should be more than two times ZSF's neigong.

Why does Lav put Wu Ji in the same neigong level of ZSF? That would mean each monk only has 33% of ZSF's neigong.

Hmm... Each of the monks are more or less on the same level as the Xuanming Elders and Cheng Kun, IIRC. And clearly Zhang Sanfeng is much, much better than one Xuanming Elder.

Also, Wuji is only in his 20's. He has mastered Nine Yang completely, through diligent practice and the help of the Qiankun Energy Bag. It is already amazing that he has reached the same level of Zhang Sanfeng... Now you say his power is twice as strong? I can't accept or believe that.

And no way is Wuji's power stronger than Xuzhu. Wuji gained his power by real training, Xuzhu got power transfer from three martial arts sages. Xuzhu is unnatural, a freak... Wuji's level is basically the highest what a "normal human being" can achieve in the field of internal power cultivation.

[- L1n -]

Originally Posted by Laviathan

Hmm... Each of the monks are more or less on the same level as the Xuanming Elders and Cheng Kun, IIRC. And clearly Zhang Sanfeng is much, much better than one Xuanming Elder.

Also, Wuji is only in his 20's. He has mastered Nine Yang completely, through diligent practice and the help of the Qiankun Energy Bag. It is already amazing that he has reached the same level of Zhang Sanfeng... Now you say his power is twice as strong? I can't accept or believe that.

And no way is Wuji's power stronger than Xuzhu. Wuji gained his power by real training, Xuzhu got power transfer from three martial arts sages. Xuzhu is unnatural, a freak... Wuji's level is basically the highest what a "normal human being" can achieve in the field of internal power cultivation.

i think ur forgeting sweeper monk.

[Du Gu seeking a win]

Originally Posted by Laviathan

Hmm... Each of the monks are more or less on the same level as the Xuanming Elders and Cheng Kun, IIRC. And clearly Zhang Sanfeng is much, much better than one Xuanming Elder.
Also, Wuji is only in his 20's. He has mastered Nine Yang completely, through diligent practice and the help of the Qiankun Energy Bag. It is already amazing that he has reached the same level of Zhang Sanfeng... Now you say his power is twice as strong? I can't accept or believe that.

*
I'll do some 'Lav algebra':

Assessment only about neigong levels!

The three monks are about three Xuan Ming Elder (does I understand you correctly?)
Say that ZSF is about one and a half XM Elder (you said ZSF is much better)
Wu Ji is better than the three monks (your own statement)
That makes Wu Ji's neigong more than twice ZSF's neigong, isn't it?

Probably the special circumstances (pure & complete 9YangZG & QKDLY) made Wu Ji that strong neigong-wise (quantum leap).

PS
Ik heb alleen jouw eigen materiaal gebruikt

Originally Posted by Laviathan

And no way is Wuji's power stronger than Xuzhu. Wuji gained his power by real training, Xuzhu got power transfer from three martial arts sages. Xuzhu is unnatural, a freak... Wuji's level is basically the highest what a "normal human being" can achieve in the field of internal power cultivation.

*
Here is something more:

If we assume that:
Sweeper Monk is NOT God
He acquired his neigong in a normal way (NOT by absorbing), we don't know anything about special circumstances helping him to gain his neigong.

then:
I would assess SM's neigong way lower than Xu Zhu's, at the most, half of XZ's neigong.
Also SM can't harm/injure XZ (due to XZ's Bei Ming SG)

So the neigong ranking imo should be as follows:

1. Xu Zhu, Duan Yu
2. Zhang Wu Ji, Sweeper Monk
3. the others

[Du Gu seeking a win]

Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing

What dfgds01 said. If even Zhang Cuisan, who had actually known and practiced with his master, misjudged the comparative abilities of his master and Xie Xun so badly, what chance does Mie Jue have?

*

The contradiction is, that in one statement you believe ZCS's assessment and in the other statement you don't believe him.

Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing

And I still maintain that Zhang Sanfeng was basically used to describe 'the sky'. If anyone is better than everyone else, they just say that only Zhang Sanfeng can beat him.

Think of it this way. Zhang Sanfeng is power level 10. Most elites are power level 5. They meet a person who's power level 7, and they think, "Oh, wow, only ZSF can match him." Yes, that's true...but ZSF is still way above them.

*
Yes, say at that time ZWJ had power level 7 and he had only 35% of 9YZG (stated in the 2nd edition) then as Wu Ji had the full 9YZG, he had power level 21 and ZSF only power level 10.

[Candide]

Say that ZSF is about one and a half XM Elder (you said ZSF is much better)

Much better = one and a half? I call bull.

[Laviathan]

Originally Posted by Du Gu seeking a win

*
I'll do some 'Lav algebra':

Assessment only about neigong levels!

The three monks are about three Xuan Ming Elder (does I understand you correctly?)
Say that ZSF is about one and a half XM Elder (you said ZSF is much better)
Wu Ji is better than the three monks (your own statement)
That makes Wu Ji's neigong more than twice ZSF's neigong, isn't it?

Hey, maybe Zhang Sanfeng is better than three Xuanming Elders combined?

Originally Posted by Du Gu seeking a win

If we assume that:
Sweeper Monk is NOT God
He acquired his neigong in a normal way (NOT by absorbing), we don't know anything about special circumstances helping him to gain his neigong.

Hmm, Sweeper Monk is anything but normal, IMO...

Ik heb alleen jouw eigen materiaal gebruikt

Ja, maar je moet mijn gelul niet al te serieus nemen.

Anyway, let me rephrase the last sentence of my previous post:
Wuji's level is basically the highest what a "normal human being OF HIS AGE" can achieve in the field of internal power cultivation.

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by Du Gu seeking a win

Say that ZSF is about one and a half XM Elder (you said ZSF is much better)

BS. You're just fitting numbers to your argument. It's conceivable that ZMJ was stronger than ZSF, but all your "proofs" simply have you pulling some numbers out of a hat and then applying some "algebra" to "prove" your conclusion.



You must remember, there isn't a fixed limit for "mastery of 9 Yang". It's not like if you understand 50% of 9 Yang you get 5 units of power and if you understand 100% you get 10 units of power.

How much internal energy you have is still a function of how long you've practiced it. ZSF has a more than 70 years lead over ZMJ in that regard plus ZSF is a genius in himself as well.

The contradiction is, that in one statement you believe ZCS's assessment and in the other statement you don't believe him.

A technique known as directing attention away from the important point. Regardless of what RWX said, it still stands that:
(a) ZCS would know his master better than MJ
(b) He was still way off
(c) MJ wouldn't stand a chance having (probably) not even encountered ZSF





I have yet to see any convincing proof that ZMJ's power exceeds ZSF's by a great amount.

Finally, you have to take into consideration JY's intent. He obviously intended for ZSF to be the god-like figure in HSDS.

[Ren Wo Xing]

"The contradiction is, that in one statement you believe ZCS's assessment and in the other statement you don't believe him."

No, there is no contradiction. I don't believe ZCS's assessment. I DO believe his assessment, however, is still better than Mie Jue. And if even -his- assessment is poor, than Mie Jue's assessment is even poorer.

Look at it this way. Let's say, Person A is Person B's son, and Person C is someone who has only heard of Person B through reputation. If even Person A misjudges his own father, Person B's, abilities, then Person C is even more likely to misjudge.

And, quite obviously, you completely ignored this post of mine,

"Also, even assuming Mie Jue's diagnostic that Zhang Wuji=Zhang Sanfeng, at that time, is correct (a HUGE assumption), that doesn't mean that Zhang Wuji, at the end of the book, had 3 times Zhang Sanfeng's energy. It wasn't that he only -had- 30/40% of the energy he would have later; it was that he could only -use- that much, until Qian Kun Da Noi Yi let him release all that potential energy consciously. In Jinyong's novels, there are many other cases like this; Ling Huchong was protected by the various energy streams in his body; even though he was unable to use them whatsoever, 0%, until he learned Xixing Dafa, they served to protect him from blows. Xu Zhu himself was only able to release a percentage of his energy against Jiu Mozhi, but the internal energy in his body still protected him, and he still had a great deal. In the same way, although Zhang Wuji was only able to -utilize- 30-40% of his energy at the time, he basically got all he was going to get by that time already, and it actively worked in his defense."

Which explains that at no point in time after learning Jiu Yang did his internal energy triple.

[Dennis Chen]

Why not just say this?...

23 yr old Zhang Wuji = 36 yr old Yang Guo = 56 yr old Guo Jing = 100 yr old Zhang Sanfeng.

So, in theory, in terms of neigong:

36 yr old Zhang Wuji >= 36 yr old Yang Guo
56 yr old Zhang Wuji >= 56 yr old Guo Jing
100 yr old Zhang Wuji >= 100 yr old Zhang Sanfeng

[lthlth]

Originally Posted by duguxiaojing

inner power was not as "pure" as his own but it was never ending or ceasing. .

What did 3f mean by "pure"?

Can someone elaborate? At this stage Wuji had already bust open the bag and learned QKDNY.

[kyss of the sword]

'pure' inner strenght means your inner enrgy is prefectly balanced between yin and yang and the five elements(earth, wind, fire, water, wood{gold}). at this stage, you can use your inner power freely in any way,hard with the force of thunder and lighting, or as soft and absorbent as snow. you can send out your energy and retract it at the last moment without it being wasted or rebounding back on you and causing damage.
e.g. when YTZ pulled back the force of his palm when DCC used AH ZI as a shield.[{translation=DGSD chapter41 fight at shaolin} However, he had struck out with all his force, how was he to retract everything in such an urgent situation. Even a mediocre
fighter knew that deflecting the palm strike even a bit to the side would avoid hitting Ah Zi, but You Tan Zhi was too concerned with Ah Zi's safety and cared for nothing else. Pulling back all his power, the effect was as if he had hit himself with the full force of the strike. Leaping back, he shouted in pain as a great stream of fresh blood was vomited out]
YTZ's inner power is not pure.so can't reabsorb easily.
WUJI's inner power was 'pure'(but predominently yang and aggressive) but not as 'pure' as ZSF, it was exhausted much more easily then ZSF energy, while ZSF could conserve without wasting his power.