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Thread: Underestimation of Xuan Ming Elders?

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    Default Underestimation of Xuan Ming Elders?

    Hi,
    After a discussion with a friend about the level of martial art of the Xuan Ming Elders, I think I have to change my opinion about them.
    For me Zhang Wuji`s internal martial art was after learning 9 Yang better than the Xuan Ming Elders (External martial art after learning Grand Universal Shift, Tai Chi, etc.). So at the end of HSDS he was in both better than them. But a friend pointed out a small part in chapter 10 where Zhang San Feng described the Xuan Ming Divine Palms:

    "Yu LianZhou told his master about how that day he was injured under the same man, but now he was able to recover. Zhang SanFeng told him that this was due to the fame of the Seven Heroes of Wu Dang, for Xuan Ming Divine Palms if used on an opponent whose inner energies exceed that of their own, the force of the palm would return back into the executer’s body to injure them. It was then that Yu LianZhou realized that he got away last time because the man was taking caution of the possibility that Yu LianZhou’s internal energies may be more profound than his own."

    According to this Zhang Wuji's internal energy was not higher than the Xuan Ming Elders because we never heard that Xuan Ming Elders were hurt by their own palms. So it has to mean that the internal part of Xuan Ming Divine Palms are equal to 9 Yang. Something hard for me to believe. Furthermore it means Xuan Ming Elders are at least from the internal aspect at Great level.

    So, what do you think about this part? Did Zhang Sanfeng overestimate the Xuan Ming Divine Palms? Unlikely for me as the way Jin Yong described the knowledge of Zhang Sanfeng. Or do u think the Xuan Ming Divine Power is equal to 9yang and the Xuan Ming Elders are at Great level (internal arts)?

    And how could ZW eradicate with his 9 yang the yin internal energy of both Xuan Ming Elders at the end of HSDS? (By the way I just saw the TV adaptions and read the English translation what is available to around chapter 36-translated by Fox-. Does anyone know whether ZW eradicate the yin energy of both Xuan Ming Elders at the same time or one after one?)
    Last edited by muidi; 06-17-08 at 05:51 AM.

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    Senior Member AnhHung's Avatar
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    Z3F was right. It was JY who got it wrong.
    I catalog this under contracdictions made by the the author.
    You do know that it is just fiction, dont you?

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    JY was wrong hence Z3F was wrong.

    Xuan Ming Divine Palms if used on an opponent whose inner energies exceed that of their own, the force of the palm would return back into the executer’s body to injure them.
    This would be true for any technique against someone of higher inner power. XMSZ should not have a unique quality which exacerbated this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CFT View Post

    This would be true for any technique against someone of higher inner power. XMSZ should not have a unique quality which exacerbated this.
    Thats not true... Guo Jing's internal was not up to HYS or H7G at the end of LOCH yet they did not take GJ's XL18Z simply with their superior internal. I think the Xuan Ming Palms is indeed quite unique in its quality of rebounding on the person if their internal is not to scratch. For other MAs, this can happen if only the opponent has vastly superior internal.

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    I was under the impression that the Elders did not use XuanMing Palms in their fights with ZWJ. If they did, it would've been rebounded back to them as ZWJ's internal is indeed better than the Elders combined.

    The initial yin energy was eradicated by ZWJ's 9 Yang... cuz 9 Yang is strong enough i guess... The only way for ZWJ to get hit by XuanMing Palms is when his 9 Yang internal is diverted to other places such as the Tibetan Monks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CFT View Post
    JY was wrong hence Z3F was wrong.

    This would be true for any technique against someone of higher inner power. XMSZ should not have a unique quality which exacerbated this.

    Not completely. I think the ability that an attack can bounce back completely is a characteristic of the martial art someone trains. Z3F is saying that Xuan Ming Palm will bounce completely back if this Palm Art is used on someone who has higher inner power. It is like the Xuan Palm user is hit really by Xuan Ming Palms. For other martial arts, you will just like hitting a strong wall, just hurt yourself but not hurt by 100 percent of your own attack. An example for this theory is the fight of GJ and OYF before GJ learned 9yin. GJ was never hurt 100 percent by his own Dragon Palms. Otherwise he surely will die because his internal power was without 9yin nothing special. Another example is the fight of Xie Xun and Kong Jian. XX's Seven Injury Fist never bounced 100 percent back to him.

    Ok, back to the point whether Xuan Ming Power is equal to 9yang: Maybe Jin Yong indeed made a mistake here. I also don’t believe that Xuan Ming Power is equal to 9yang. But when the 2nd hero of Wudang matched Palms with one of the Xuan Ming Elder, he also said that he never experienced such high martial art before. Except his own teacher, Z3F, he doesn´t know anyone with such high power. Later, chapter 9 or 10, it was said that the first and the second hero of Wudang are from martial arts level near to the three divine monks of Shaolin. So, Jin Yong, wants to say Xuan Ming Divine Power (internal power!) is extremely powerful. Ok, not equal to 9yang but quite near. The reason why ZWJ later won against the Xuan Ming Elders was that Xuan Ming Palms lacked in external power. Compared to internal martial art Xuan Ming Elders ARE near Great level.

    Interesting what would happened if Xuan Ming Elders could snatch away the 9yin manual. Would they be stronger than ROCH Greats?

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    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    I was under the impression that the Elders did not use XuanMing Palms in their fights with ZWJ. If they did, it would've been rebounded back to them as ZWJ's internal is indeed better than the Elders combined.

    The initial yin energy was eradicated by ZWJ's 9 Yang... cuz 9 Yang is strong enough i guess... The only way for ZWJ to get hit by XuanMing Palms is when his 9 Yang internal is diverted to other places such as the Tibetan Monks.
    The Xuan Ming Elders did used their Xuan palms against ZWJ. It was two times. The first time on Wudang (ZWJ, Bat King and the right protector or Ming Cult were hit by the palms) and a second time when ZWJ fought the Tibetians monks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnhHung View Post
    Z3F was right. It was JY who got it wrong.
    I catalog this under contracdictions made by the the author.

    Is there any list of contradictions online?

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    Quote Originally Posted by muidi View Post
    The Xuan Ming Elders did used their Xuan palms against ZWJ. It was two times. The first time on Wudang (ZWJ, Bat King and the right protector or Ming Cult were hit by the palms) and a second time when ZWJ fought the Tibetians monks.
    Exactly, and both times ZWJ's main internal was occupied. On Wudang, his two palms were clashing with the two palms of XM Elders when he was hit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by muidi View Post
    Is there any list of contradictions online?
    Dont know if there is a dedicated thread on this subject. If not, you should start one.
    You do know that it is just fiction, dont you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    Exactly, and both times ZWJ's main internal was occupied. On Wudang, his two palms were clashing with the two palms of XM Elders when he was hit.

    What do u mean that his main internal was occupied? Then it seems like Z3F/Jin Yong was not wrong because ZW clashed palms with BOTH XM Elders.

    And I have to correct myself about the theory that XM is near Great level. If we believe (so do I) that they are only a bit lower than ZW in internal power, than XM Elders ARE AT Great level (internal) because the internal power of 9yang is better than 9yin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by muidi View Post
    What do u mean that his main internal was occupied? Then it seems like Z3F/Jin Yong was not wrong because ZW clashed palms with BOTH XM Elders.

    And I have to correct myself about the theory that XM is near Great level. If we believe (so do I) that they are only a bit lower than ZW in internal power, than XM Elders ARE AT Great level (internal) because the internal power of 9yang is better than 9yin.
    ZWJ directed his internal to his hands and clashed palm with the elders. Then the elders used their free hand and hit him on his torsoe. Normally, his 9 yang would have automatic resist, but all power was directed to his hands.
    You do know that it is just fiction, dont you?

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    This has been discussed before.

    Zhang Wuji was caught by surprise by the Xuanming Elders, so he might not have used his maximum power.

    And yes, it is possible that Xuanming Elders did not have Xuanming Divine Palm against Zhang Wuji. If they don't use Xuanming Divine Palm, the "injure yourself" thing might not apply.

    In HSDS, it was mentioned that a Xuanming Elder is only about half a level above Fan Yao. And their lightness kung fu apparently suck goose turd.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    But when the 2nd hero of Wudang matched Palms with one of the Xuan Ming Elder, he also said that he never experienced such high martial art before. Except his own teacher, Z3F, he doesn´t know anyone with such high power.
    When Zhang Cuishan saw Xie Xun, he also thought that Xie Xun was the highest leveled martial artist other than Zhang Sanfeng. But in reality, Xie Xun was probably just around 15% of Zhang Sanfeng's level.

    The Xuanming Elders' internal energies weren't that high. The Merit-Transmission Elder of the Beggar's Union was able to match 5 of their Xuanming Divine Palms.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFT View Post
    This would be true for any technique against someone of higher inner power. XMSZ should not have a unique quality which exacerbated this.
    Not at all.

    With high internal energy, you'll _counter_ the attack. For instance, when Zhao Min bit ZWJ, ZWJ's internal energy rebounded and causes ZM's lip to split and bleed.

    It's usually cases of poison or special internal energy (freezing for instance) that might have a reflection clause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    This has been discussed before.

    Zhang Wuji was caught by surprise by the Xuanming Elders, so he might not have used his maximum power.

    And yes, it is possible that Xuanming Elders did not have Xuanming Divine Palm against Zhang Wuji. If they don't use Xuanming Divine Palm, the "injure yourself" thing might not apply.

    In HSDS, it was mentioned that a Xuanming Elder is only about half a level above Fan Yao. And their lightness kung fu apparently suck goose turd.
    From HSDS chapter 24:

    His hand was about a foot away from Zhao Min's shoulder when he felt
    palm wind heading towards the left and right side of his body. These
    palms were soundless and appeared out of no where. In shock, Zhang Wuji
    brought both his palms out. His right hand met the palm attacking on his
    right and his left hand met the palm attacking from the left. The four
    palms clashed at the same time. Only to feel a strange powerful energy.
    The palm force contained a matchless cold yin energy he knew well. It
    was no other than the ?Xuan Ming Divine Palm? which tormented him in his
    youth. Startled, Zhang Wuji channelled his Art of 9 Yang chi. Suddenly,
    two palms hit him simultaneously on the left and right side of his body.
    With a grunt, Zhang Wuji was thrown backwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    From HSDS chapter 24:

    His hand was about a foot away from Zhao Min's shoulder when he felt
    palm wind heading towards the left and right side of his body. These
    palms were soundless and appeared out of no where. In shock, Zhang Wuji
    brought both his palms out. His right hand met the palm attacking on his
    right and his left hand met the palm attacking from the left. The four
    palms clashed at the same time. Only to feel a strange powerful energy.
    The palm force contained a matchless cold yin energy he knew well. It
    was no other than the ?Xuan Ming Divine Palm?
    which tormented him in his
    youth. Startled, Zhang Wuji channelled his Art of 9 Yang chi. Suddenly,
    two palms hit him simultaneously on the left and right side of his body.
    With a grunt, Zhang Wuji was thrown backwards.
    Alright, so it WAS Xuanming Divine Palm after all.

    The shock factor still stands.

    By the way pannonian, in the future if you could highlight the key words when quoting a passage, that would be helpful.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Alright, so it WAS Xuanming Divine Palm after all.

    The shock factor still stands.

    By the way pannonian, in the future if you could highlight the key words when quoting a passage, that would be helpful.
    Shock shouldn't be a factor. He still had time to rise his palms. Its not like they bushwhacked him before he knew it.

    And the fact is that the XM Elders at this point already knew of his strong energy, yet were willing to use the XM palms on him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Shock shouldn't be a factor. He still had time to rise his palms. Its not like they bushwhacked him before he knew it.
    But the shock factor means he may not have been able to utilize his full energy resource.

    Just like when Jiumozhi suddenly launched a surprise attack on Duan Yu in front of the Sweeper Monk, Duan Yu was not able to react fully in time.

    And the fact is that the XM Elders at this point already knew of his strong energy, yet were willing to use the XM palms on him.
    I can argue that they also knew that if they launched a surprise attack, Zhang Wuji wouldn't be able to tap into his full energy resource.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    But the shock factor means he may not have been able to utilize his full energy resource.

    Just like when Jiumozhi suddenly launched a surprise attack on Duan Yu in front of the Sweeper Monk, Duan Yu was not able to react fully in time.



    I can argue that they also knew that if they launched a surprise attack, Zhang Wuji wouldn't be able to tap into his full energy resource.
    Duan Yu was still a punk at that time. There are also many examples just from DGSD where a surprise attack did not hinder the defence of the victim e.g. Ah Zi spitting at XF or XF sneaking 2 palms on DY/XZ. And when JMZ hit XZ 6 times before XZ knew it, we didn't see his Bei Ming shield fail either.

    And how risky is it to _assume_ that ZWJ's shield would be down? They were cautious enough on Yu Lianzhou. At this point, they _knew_ that ZWJ had major internal power.

    Besides, it is said that ZWJ could manipulate his 9 Yang 'at will'. Enough time to raise his palms should mean enough time to raise his shields. Heck, it should be on even if he was bushwhacked since his inner energy could even hit back at ZM's bite. I mean, we have been calling it '9 Yang Auto-Protect all this while."
    Last edited by CC; 06-18-08 at 12:52 AM.

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