Random thought of the day: Theoretical weakness of Shifting Stars

Random thought of the day.

Is MRB/MRF used shifting stars and did not KO the opponent by the 1st or 2nd stance of it.

Wouldn't the opponent catch on and know: 'haha! He is going to redirect my Turtle Baths in River stroke to me when I do this', and instantly be able to counter it?

In fact, when fighting a Murong, if you know that your own stroke can be re-directed at you, that kinda gives you forewarning how to counter-counter it no?

I mean, it wasn't just redirecting force, it was using the same stroke to the extent that someone can see your dead body and tell that you were killed by Turtle Baths in River etc etc.

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Originally Posted by CC

Random thought of the day.

Is MRB/MRF used shifting stars and did not KO the opponent by the 1st or 2nd stance of it.

Wouldn't the opponent catch on and know: 'haha! He is going to redirect my Turtle Baths in River stroke to me when I do this', and instantly be able to counter it?

In fact, when fighting a Murong, if you know that your own stroke can be re-directed at you, that kinda gives you forewarning how to counter-counter it no?

I mean, it wasn't just redirecting force, it was using the same stroke to the extent that someone can see your dead body and tell that you were killed by Turtle Baths in River etc etc.

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What would happen if a Murong tries to use it against one of Yin Liting's suicidal stances?

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Originally Posted by CC

Random thought of the day.

Is MRB/MRF used shifting stars and did not KO the opponent by the 1st or 2nd stance of it.

Wouldn't the opponent catch on and know: 'haha! He is going to redirect my Turtle Baths in River stroke to me when I do this', and instantly be able to counter it?

In fact, when fighting a Murong, if you know that your own stroke can be re-directed at you, that kinda gives you forewarning how to counter-counter it no?

I mean, it wasn't just redirecting force, it was using the same stroke to the extent that someone can see your dead body and tell that you were killed by Turtle Baths in River etc etc.

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So what happens when H7G and GJ battle using XL18Z??

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Originally Posted by hyoyatika

So what happens when H7G and GJ battle using XL18Z??

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We saw it happen at the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament.

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Originally Posted by Ken Cheng

We saw it happen at the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament.

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Yeeep but too bad they only exchange one palm/move before ended it in internal energy contest..

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Originally Posted by Western Eccentric

Yeeep but too bad they only exchange one palm/move before ended it in internal energy contest..

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They exchanged upwards of 100 stances, with Guo Jing, if anything, holding the upper hand for as long as Hong Qigong didn't go all out. The internal contest only came with the last, 300th stance, when H7G did indeed go all out to try and snatch victory by blowing GJ away. Prior to that, GJ used a mixture of Dragon Palms and Vacant Fists to neutralise and counter H7G's Dragon Palms.

It was a rhetorical question guys.

Can't believe I have to explain the co-relation.

CC asked what would happen if the fighter knew that the Murongs were going to "reflect" their skill. If Xiao Feng used XL18Z and Murong Fu somehow reflected it back to Xiao Feng, then it would be like Xiao Feng fighting a fighter that has XL18Z. Of course, what would change would be that there should only be XF's palms floating around since the Murongs are merely reflecting the palms back.

This is a very intriguing question, and it involuntarily made me want to discuss fictitious martial arts again. Thank you, CC, for this philosophical question.

It goes to the core of martial arts theory in Jin Yong or fictional martial arts universe: What is the ultimate form for martial arts? This is also one of the motifs that Jin Yong played and used as symbolism for another struggle for power in Smiling Proud Wanderer: Qi or Sword faction?

Probably Jin Yong probably thought pragmatism is more important. Huang Rong tried to teach Guo Fu and the Wu brothers a lesson saying that martial arts aren’t always about strength or power, but sometimes the mechanics or trickery works. Martial arts are supposed deceptive; it is an art form designed to maximize energy or strength to defeat an opponent. Martial arts can come in different forms such as: palm energy, sophisticated stances or utilizing other people’s strength against one another. The Shifting Stars Technique belonged to the latter.

We, as the readers or audience members, possess knowledge that the Shifting Stars Technique exists because the author explained to us. In the novel, most martial artists just knew that the Murongs were good at killing their opponents with their own moves, but they weren’t privy that it was called the Shifting Stars Technique. Even skilled experts like Tonglao only recognized what the nature of this technique was, but probably she didn’t know it by name. Jiumozhi either was so good or deduced the nature of the Murong family’s martial arts move, and found a workaround when he was fighting Murong Fu. In chapter 40, Jiumozhi was just toying with Murong Fu, and he did this:
慕容復見他五指微顫，但這一抓法度謹嚴，沉穩老辣，絲毫沒有內力不足之象，心下暗驚：「莫非我猜錯了？」當 下提起內力，凝神接戰，右手一擋，隨即反鉤他手腕。鳩摩智喝道：「瞧在你父親面上，十招之內，不使殺手，算 是我一點故人的香火之情。」呼的一拳擊出，直取慕容復右肩。
　　慕容復飄身閃開，鳩摩智第二招已緊接而至，中間竟無絲毫空隙。慕容復雖擅「斗轉星移」的借力打力之法， 但對方招數實在太過精妙，每一招都是只使半招，下半招倏生變化，慕容復要待借力，卻是無從借起，只得緊緊守 住要害，待敵之隙。但鳩摩智招數奇幻，的是生平從所未見，一拳打到半途，已化為指，手抓拿出，近身時卻變為 掌。堪堪十招打完，鳩摩智喝道：「十招已完，你認命罷！」

The question, then becomes Jiumozhi is obviously better than Murong Fu, isn’t that why the Shifting Stars Technique failed? It becomes the chicken and the egg question, which came first? Is the technique doomed to fail because the practitioner isn’t as skilled as the opponent? Or is the technique not sufficient to propel the practitioner to go against better opponents? This becomes a bit obscure, and it shows that writers can lose in this as well. In LOCH, Guo Jing was able to keep Liang Ziweng at bay with the same stance when he trained the first stance of the Dragon Subduing Palms, and Liang was afraid to match palms with Guo Jing. I think Liang Ziweng is a horrible martial artist, but shouldn’t he, logically, be able to match a palm stance with a Guo Jing with less-than-a-month training with Hong Qigong? Are the 18 Dragon-Subduing Palms that fantastic? I really don’t know.

A similar example from Gu Long in Legendary Siblings exists. In the Legendary Siblings, the Floral Palace is, in contrast to DGSD, known for a special stance called 移花借玉. This stance has baffled everyone in LS, but Xiao Yu’er, discovered that 移花借玉 is nothing but borrowing strength from the opponent to kill him/her/them. He discovered that a practitioner of 移花借玉 needed to know how his opponent generates his/her/their strength, and uses that against him/her/them. Like Jiumozhi, Xiao Yu’er manage to allude Princess Yaoyu Yaoyue using her 移花借玉 against him. It was a reversed Jiumozhi against Murong Fu. This time the superior opponent has ‘the borrowing strength from the opponent’ technique, and want to use it, but the opponent knows what she is up to, and messes that up.

小魚兒笑嘻嘻道：「你要殺我，你為什麽自己不過來？」邀月宮主臉上又氣得變了顏色，誰知小魚兒這句話剛說完 ，身子已凌空撲起，閃電般攻出三掌。
　　這三掌當真是凌厲無匹，強勁絕倫，武林中只怕已極少有人能逃得過他這「殺手三招」。但在邀月宮主眼，卻 看得有如兒戲一般，她身子似乎全末動彈，小魚兒這三掌竟連她的衣角都沾不到。
蘇櫻只瞧了一眼，已知道小魚兒絕非邀月宮主的敵手了，她似乎不忍再看，竟垂著頭走了出去他果然越打越起勁， 果然絲毫沒有畏怯之意，每一招使出，都帶著虎虎的風聲，可見是已用出了十成勁力。但無論他用出多麽厲害的招 式，邀月宮主只要輕輕的一揮手，就將他的攻勢化解於無形。
　　奇招連變，直到此刻為止，她既沒有使出「移花接玉」的功夫來，也沒有使出一著殺手。
　　小魚兒眨了眨眼睛，忽又笑道：「你究竟是想殺我？還是在跟我鬧著玩的？」他不等邀月宮主說，又笑著道： 「你是不是想等到摸清我使力的方法之後，才要我死？」
　　邀月宮主微微動容，皺眉道：「我為什麽要摸清你使力的方法？」
　　小魚兒道：「因為你若摸不清我力量發出的方向，就使不出！移花接玉』的功夫來，是不是？」他的嘴在不停 的說著話，手也在不停的揮動攻擊，但一雙眼睛，卻始終瞬也不瞬的瞪著邀月宮主。
　　邀月宮主面上的神情果然又有了變化，卻冷冷道：「我要用！移花接玉的功夫時，自然會用的，用不著你著急 。」小魚兒大笑道：「你也用不著再騙我了，我早已看破了你那！移花接玉』的秘密，你要不要我說 結你聽聽？」
　　邀月宮主冷笑道：「就憑你，只怕還不配說起「移花接玉』這四個字。」
　　小魚兒道：「我為什麽不配？！移花接玉』又有什麽了不起，那隻不過也是種借方使力的功夫罷了，和武當的 四兩撥千斤」，少林的！沾衣十八跌』也差不了多少，只不過因為你的出手特別快，而且能在對力力量還末充分使 出來之前，就搶了先機先將他的力量撥回去，所以在別人眼中看來，就變得分外神奇，再加上你們自己故作神奇， 故弄玄虛，將本來很簡單的一件事，故意渲染得十分複雜，十分神秘，所以別人就更認為這種功夫了 不起了。」
　　他滔滔不絕，說到這，才歇了口氣。邀月宮生面上已露出驚訝之色，厲聲道：「你還知道什麽！ 」
　　小魚兄道：「我雖然還不知道你是用什麽手法將別人經脈中的真氣撥回去的，但這也無關緊要，因為我已知道 了你這種功夫最大的關鍵，就是要先摸清對力的真氣是從什麽地方，什麽方向發出來的！」
　　邀月宮主道：「哼。」
邀月宮主道：「你以為……」她只說了三個字，就又頓住了語聲。
　　小魚兒道：「就因為我的內功不佳，出手又沒有規矩，所以你一時間竟摸不清我內力發出的方向，就根本使不 出「移花接玉』的功夫來。」
　　邀月宮主一聲冷笑中，她纖纖十指，已向小魚兒「曲澤」「天泉」兩穴之間點了過去，手勢如採 花拂柳。
　　這兩處穴道屬「手厥陰經」，小魚兒此刻攻出兩招，力道正是由此而發，顯然她已摸清了小魚兒真氣流動的方 位。
　　誰知小魚兒身形一轉，轉開叄尺，連一點事也沒有。這百發百中萬無一失的「移花接玉」功使到小魚兒身上， 竟變得一點用也沒有了。
　　邀月宮主這才真的吃了一驚，她既已看準了小魚兒出手的力道發自「手厥陰經」，那就萬萬不會 錯的。
　　只聽小魚兒大笑道：「你想不到吧，告訴你，你以為我那兩招用了很大力氣，其實我卻是一點力氣也沒有用， 你想借我的力氣打我自己，但根本連一點力氣也沒有，這就是我對付「移花接玉」功的法子，你說這法子好不好？ 」
　　邀月宮主變了變顏色，冷笑道：「很好，也虧你想得出這麽笨的法子來。你出手若不用力氣，就根本無法傷人 ，自己實已立於不勝之地，兩人交手，若根本無法求勝，難道遠不算笨麽？」

　　小魚，了黜頭，笑嘻嘻道：「不錯，我自己也覺得這法子的確很笨，但對付你這樣的人，有時越笨法子，往往 會越有用，何況，是你想殺我，我根本就不想殺你，我只要能令你傷不了我，就已經很滿意了。」
　　邀月宮主厲聲道；「我不用！移花接玉』的功夫，難道就殺不了你麽？」
　　小魚兒道：「我正是想瞧瞧你倒底還有什麽本事能殺得了我！」

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Originally Posted by CC

Is MRB/MRF used shifting stars and did not KO the opponent by the 1st or 2nd stance of it. Wouldn't the opponent catch on and know: 'haha! He is going to redirect my Turtle Baths in River stroke to me when I do this', and instantly be able to counter it?

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I think that's right. It's said that the Murongs only used Star Shifting when confident of the kill. Further, remember how MRB's mom got on his case for not being able to kill young Yellow-Eyebrowed Monk in one stance. So I think "single stance execution" is an inherent part of the usage.

But also keep in mind the Murongs only pick inferior opponents to use lethal Star Shifting on. So even if he didn't kill them in one stance and they can react, their inferiority would likely doom them.

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Originally Posted by PJ

I think that's right. It's said that the Murongs only used Star Shifting when confident of the kill. Further, remember how MRB's mom got on his case for not being able to kill young Yellow-Eyebrowed Monk in one stance. So I think "single stance execution" is an inherent part of the usage.

But also keep in mind the Murongs only pick inferior opponents to use lethal Star Shifting on. So even if he didn't kill them in one stance and they can react, their inferiority would likely doom them.

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Another limitation which is directly implied (just once) by JY was that Star Shifting can redirect the force, but the user cannot add on his own force to it.

Sometimes I feel JY never really figured out what he wanted Star Shifting to be.