In 1963, did DGSD cause an uproar among JY purists?

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04-03-08, 11:35 AM
Wellesley

In 1963, did DGSD cause an uproar among JY purists?

DGSD took the liberty to change many facts from LOCH. For instance, in the original version of LOCH, Hong Qigong was the one who invented 18 Dragon Subduing Palms, whereas he now is merely one in a line of many chiefs who has the techniques passed down to him.

I believe the original version made more sense, and also gave Hong Qigong more prestige too as the progenitor of one of the best martial arts in Jiang Hu. It's kinda silly that a 20 year old Guo Jing could use all 18 palms, while Hong Qigong, who was much older at the first Huashan tournament, probably in his mid-thirties at the least, had not mastered all the moves.

Also, DGSD reduces the famed 1 Yang Zhi to the level of a water gun compared to L6SJ, so that kinda implies that Yi Deng was a second rate fighter using a second rate martial art compared to the DGSD Elites. Wang ChongYang traveled thousand of miles to trade his supreme invention for 1 Yang Zhi, while JiuMoZhi only had eyes for L6SJ, 1 Yang Zhi was not even worth trading for.

I believe these are changes on a much greater scale than the 3rd edition changes.
04-03-08, 12:48 PM
PJ

Quote:

> In 1963, did DGSD cause an uproar among JY purists?

Yes, I've wondered how it was received, seeing how many changes it required of the other novels.

But now, let's talk about what you said.

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It's kinda silly that a 20 year old Guo Jing could use all 18 palms, while Hong Qigong, who was much older at the first Huashan tournament, probably in his mid-thirties at the least, had not mastered all the moves.

Was it said that Hong Qigong at 1st Huashan had not learned all 18 stances, or just that he hadn't mastered the art to the fullest extent? B/c end of LOCH Guo Jing didn't master XL18Z to the fullest extent either.

I don't think it's silly. Because Hong Qigong didn't have access to 9 Yin, whereas Guo Jing did. If Hong Qigong had 9 Yin, he might have mastered it sooner too.

And lest not forget, Huang Yaoshi thought that 20 year old Pre-HIS Yang Guo had more internal energy than 20 year old Huang. Now that I do find a bit silly, but a lot of people think Huang Yaoshi made an incorrect assertion.

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Also, DGSD reduces the famed 1 Yang Zhi to the level of a water gun compared to L6SJ,

Not really. Yiyang Zhi was still HIGHLY PRESTIGIOUS in the DGSD era. It was one of the 5 arts that Murong Family and Xiaoyao Sect did not have access to. Only Yiyang Finger, 6MSJ, XL18Z, Dog-Beating Stick, and Yijinjing were in this prestigious category. And apparently in the 3rd ed, it's said that Yiyang Finger is an equal to Jiumozhi's Flaming Blade Palm. So that means Yiyang Finger is still a Great-level art.

6MSJ is good but it's not magic. You have to have the internal energy to perform it. If you have enough internal energy to perform 6MSJ, your Yiyang Finger would be killer too -- not as lethal as 6MSJ, but certainly, Great-level.
04-03-08, 01:58 PM
Ken Cheng

It's also not a good idea to go into learning 6 Mak Divine Swords without first learning 1 Yeung Finger Technique. It could be done; after all, Deun Yu did it, but if one does it that way, one can expect the same spotty results that Deun Yu got.
04-03-08, 03:09 PM
Ren Ying Ying

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJ

And lest not forget, Huang Yaoshi thought that 20 year old Pre-HIS Yang Guo had more internal energy than 20 year old Huang. Now that I do find a bit silly, but a lot of people think Huang Yaoshi made an incorrect assertion.

i don't find it silly to believe that a 20 year old (pre HIS) Yang Guo is more powerful than a 20 year old Huang Yaoshi. Afterall, Yang Guo is diagnosed as the main character, having access to superior arts and recieve pointers & help from the greatest masters of martial arts during the time. Huang Yaoshi on the other hand is a self made man. Who knows when he actually started mastering his superior arts? :azzangel:.
04-03-08, 05:15 PM
PJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying

having access to superior arts and recieve pointers & help from the greatest masters of martial arts during the time.

Hmm Yang Guo also had some training from 9 Yin. So I'll accepted that as a big boost.
04-03-08, 05:18 PM
CrazyT

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJ

Hmm Yang Guo also had some training from 9 Yin. So I'll accepted that as a big boost.

YG only knew the external kung fu. I personally think the boost in his internal energy came from the ice bed. That's why 20 years old YG > 20 years old HYS.
04-03-08, 07:35 PM
PJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyT

YG only knew the external kung fu.

Actually, it's stated that he did gain some internal energy from 9 Yin:

又学得玉女心经与九阴真经的□要，内功积蓄已厚

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I personally think the boost in his internal energy came from the ice bed. That's why 20 years old YG > 20 years old HYS.

But Xiao Longnu has been sleeping on the ice bed longer than Yang Guo, and her level of internal energy is so crappy (for example, Xiaoxiang Zi's internal level is WAY above her).
04-04-08, 03:34 AM
Wu Wudi

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJ

Actually, it's stated that he did gain some internal energy from 9 Yin:

It probably wasn't very useful though, considering that WCY didn't have the translated sanskrit portion.

With regards to XL18Z, in the 2nd edition, wasn't it mentioned that H7G learned half of XL18Z from his master and invented the other half himself?
04-04-08, 08:21 AM
PJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wu Wudi

It probably wasn't very useful though, considering that WCY didn't have the translated sanskrit portion.

Define "Useful". 9 Yin can increase your internal energy greatly like it did to Guo Jing, but that was a very significant boost. Even a fraction of that kind of increase can be considered a big boost to Yang Guo.

I am just trying to think how Yang Guo can have such great internal energy at age 20. The boost shouldn't be from Ancient Tomb, since Xiao Longnu's internal energy level is crap. He didn't learn any IE from Hong Qigong. He had a little bit from Ouyang Feng and Quanzhen. Then he got a boost from Huang Yaoshi as well. And of course, a little bit of 9 Yin.
04-04-08, 01:13 PM
Wu Wudi

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJ

Define "Useful". 9 Yin can increase your internal energy greatly like it did to Guo Jing, but that was a very significant boost. Even a fraction of that kind of increase can be considered a big boost to Yang Guo.

I am just trying to think how Yang Guo can have such great internal energy at age 20. The boost shouldn't be from Ancient Tomb, since Xiao Longnu's internal energy level is crap. He didn't learn any IE from Hong Qigong. He had a little bit from Ouyang Feng and Quanzhen. Then he got a boost from Huang Yaoshi as well. And of course, a little bit of 9 Yin.

It looks like another case of "Jy just scewed up the details". There was no mention of ZBT or GJ improving in internal power with the untranslated portions. GJ also recited 9YIN to H7G when they were stranded on the island yet H7G didn't detect any internal power increasing techniques.

I don't think XLN's internal power is crap. If it were really that bad, she wouldn't have been able to fight BWM despite her superior techniques. Internal power was just a part of her MA that wasn't particularly strong or emphasized by JY.

With regards to YG's internal power, it seemed like one of those cases where "what actually took place didn't fit with JY's descriptions". YG's internal power was called strong yet he struggled mightily against a mid-high level fighter like LMC. The two armed YG had to rely on his brains to barely survive despite supposedly already having a high level of internal power. It wasn't until YG got the chance encounter with DGQB's tomb that his internal power being called strong meant anything.

With regards to H7G's XL18Z, do you know if I recalled correctly about H7G inventing half of his XL18Z in the 2nd edition? It was in that part where he was staying at the inn while HR cooked for him and GJ was learning Xl18Z.
04-04-08, 02:40 PM
PJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wu Wudi

It looks like another case of "Jy just scewed up the details". There was no mention of ZBT or GJ improving in internal power with the untranslated portions. GJ also recited 9YIN to H7G when they were stranded on the island yet H7G didn't detect any internal power increasing techniques.

But Hong Qigong did improve based on 9 Yin. This was told in ROCH:
洪七公曾听郭靖、黄蓉背诵真经中的一小部份，与自己原来武功一加印证，也是大有进境，毕竟正胜於逆，虽然所知不多，却也不轮於西毒。

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I don't think XLN's internal power is crap. If it were really that bad, she wouldn't have been able to fight BWM despite her superior techniques. Internal power was just a part of her MA that wasn't particularly strong or emphasized by JY.

Well, Jin Yong did say that her internal energy is vastly inferior to that of Xiaoxiang Zi. Although I heard this was removed in 3rd ed.

Quote:

With regards to H7G's XL18Z, do you know if I recalled correctly about H7G inventing half of his XL18Z in the 2nd edition? It was in that part where he was staying at the inn while HR cooked for him and GJ was learning Xl18Z.

Sorry, I have no idea.
04-04-08, 03:43 PM
Wu Wudi

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJ

But Hong Qigong did improve based on 9 Yin. This was told in ROCH:
洪七公曾听郭靖、黄蓉背诵真经中的一小部份，与自己原来武功一加印证，也是大有进境，毕竟正胜於逆，虽然所知不多，却也不轮於西毒。

That was after they gave H7G the sanskrit portion. Yideng had told them that it should save H7G's life.

It's interesting that H7G caught up to OYF's level in ROCH. At the end of LOCH, OYF had a significant edge over the other greats despite learning a 9YIN that was only partially correct. If that portion of 9YIN was enough for H7G to close that gap, then Yiden should have been more powerful in ROCH than he was portrayed to be.
04-04-08, 04:08 PM
Ken Cheng

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wu Wudi

At the end of LOCH, OYF had a significant edge over the other greats despite learning a 9YIN that was only partially correct.

Not really. Au Yeung Fung was still at the same general level as Hung 7 Gung and Wong Yerk See, but Hung and Wong were just having trouble adjusting to the weirdness of the fake 9 Yum techniques. At any time during the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, if Hung and Wong decided to just dispense with their pride and their sense of fair play, they could have easily subdued Au Yeung Fung by ganging up on him.
04-04-08, 04:32 PM
Wu Wudi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Cheng

Not really. Au Yeung Fung was still at the same general level as Hung 7 Gung and Wong Yerk See, but Hung and Wong were just having trouble adjusting to the weirdness of the fake 9 Yum techniques. At any time during the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, if Hung and Wong decided to just dispense with their pride and their sense of fair play, they could have easily subdued Au Yeung Fung by ganging up on him.

Well, OYF wasn't twice as powerful as either great but he won both 1 on 1 matchups easily. OYF's 9yin wasn't all weirdness. In addition to the fake 9YIN, OYF also praticed with GJ for a month which allowed him to see some real 9YIN techniques. Because OYF was a genius, he was able to grasp some important concepts of the real 9YIN.

Btw, did you watch that TVB adapation (w/Athena Chu) which had OYF simultaneously beating all three of the other greats? I only watch bits of that series but that final fight was hilarously awesome.