North Beggar Hung 7 Gung - the Great..."loser?"

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10-05-06, 12:55 AM
Ken Cheng

North Beggar Hung 7 Gung - the Great..."loser?"

Of the original Greats, North Beggar Hung 7 Gung is my favorite. Not only were his signature martial arts, the Hong Lung 18 Palms and the Dog Beating Stick Technique, extremely powerful and cool, but he also had perhaps the most likeable personality among the original Greats. It's little wonder that Yau Chui Gei picked him as a favorite to win the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament.

Looking at Hung 7 Gung's actual combat record in L/ROCH, however, he seems to be a bit of a "loser." He was defeated by West Poison Au Yeung Fung on the latter's yacht, being badly injured (nearly losing his life) and rendered unable to practice his martial arts for nearly two years. After recovering from his injury thanks to the 9 Yum Jen Ging, Hung 7 Gung did indeed participate in the Second Mt. Hua Tournament, but was unable to defeat 20-year old Gwok Jing within 300 moves. Moreover, Hung 7 Gung lost to Au Yeung Fung two more times in short order immediately before and after that tournament. Twenty years or so later, Hung 7 Gung fought Au Yeung Fung one final time. The fight itself was a draw with both fighters losing their lives, but Au Yeung Fung one-upped Hung 7 Gung again by creating a move that could defeat the ultimate move (No Dogs In The World) of the Dog Beating Stick Technique.

As much as I like Hung 7 Gung, was he a big "loser?"
10-05-06, 01:06 AM
duguxiaojing

Quote:

Looking at Hung 7 Gung's actual combat record in L/ROCH, however, he seems to be a bit of a "loser." He was defeated by West Poison Au Yeung Fung on the latter's yacht, being badly injured (nearly losing his life) and rendered unable to practice his martial arts for nearly two years. After recovering from his injury thanks to the 9 Yum Jen Ging, Hung 7 Gung did indeed participate in the Second Mt. Hua Tournament, but was unable to defeat 20-year old Gwok Jing within 300 moves. Morever, Hung 7 Gung lost to Au Yeung Fung two more times in short order immediately before and after that tournament. Twenty years or so later, Hung 7 Gung fought Au Yeung Fung one final time. The fight itself was a draw with both fighters losing their lives, but Au Yeung Fung one-upped Hung 7 Gung again by creating a move that could defeat the ultimate move (No Dogs In The World) of the Dog Beating Stick Technique.

H7G had the advantage on the yatch but spared OYF, which gave him a chance to jump in the water to dose off some flames before they respared. IIRC OYF cheap shoted H7G to defeat him on the yatch.

At the second Mt. Hua tournament he was going easy on GJ at first(just like HYS) and vs OYF (3rd and final meeting at Mt.Hua), H7G did not want to use DBS against him because he was mentally insane or he would have been able to subdue him(according to JY). Also it took OYF one night to resolve the final stance, and in a real fight no one would just stand back and give you the time to think of a counter move. According to YG, H7G could be considered a level better then OYF(which somewhat contradicts JY's statements of them being roughly equal a couple of paragraphs back.)

So...no H7G was not really a loser....although he is a bit 2 merciful towards his enemies at times which led to some of his "defeats."
10-05-06, 02:45 AM
CDonC

H7G was definitely thrashed around a lot during the story, but I don't think "loser" would be a suitable definition. Like duguxiaojing said, he was either going easy or trying to spare the opponent when he was losing.

While we don't get to see him at his peak for very long, his "loserness" did serve the purpose to develop GJ's storyline.
10-05-06, 02:49 AM
CC

Loser = Murong Fu!
10-05-06, 02:56 AM
Ken Cheng

Quote:

Originally Posted by duguxiaojing

According to YG, H7G could be considered a level better then OYF(which somewhat contradicts JY's statements of them being roughly equal a couple of paragraphs back.)

It's also an odd assessment to make after having watched the two Greats battle each other to a dead heat for several days and several nights running. In ROCH, Hung 7 Gung and Au Yeung Fung were in an absolute deadlock.
10-05-06, 08:03 AM
shadow8899

OYF would have lost to H7G if they were actually fighting and not just using theory. Likewise, OYF would have lost to H7G on the yatch if not for H7G not wanting to take advantage.
10-05-06, 05:34 PM
KJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Cheng

It's also an odd assessment to make after having watched the two Greats battle each other to a dead heat for several days and several nights running. In ROCH, Hung 7 Gung and Au Yeung Fung were in an absolute deadlock.

That was because he did not use DBS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by duguxiaojing

H7G did not want to use DBS against him because he was mentally insane or he would have been able to subdue him(according to JY).
10-05-06, 06:10 PM
PJ

If I remember correctly, Yang Guo did not say that Hong Qigong would win from Ouyang Feng or anything like that. He merely said that Dog-beating Stick's theories are a little more advanced (than what, I don't remember). This means that Ouyang Feng wouldn't be able to counter the Dog-beating Stick in real time, but it doesn't mean he would lose either.
10-05-06, 07:12 PM
K2Grey

If OYF and H7G were equally matched in weapon combat and H7G was not using his best stick skill, it makes sense to say that if H7G was using DBS, he would have won, since there is no indication OYF was going easy or anything.
01-02-07, 11:06 PM
PJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by K2Grey

If OYF and H7G were equally matched in weapon combat and H7G was not using his best stick skill, it makes sense to say that if H7G was using DBS, he would have won, since there is no indication OYF was going easy or anything.

I think that sometimes characters get too caught up with trying to solve/break complex martial arts, when they could try other simpler methods to win. If Ouyang Feng tried to break the dog-beating stick in real-time, he would not prevail. A better alternative instead would be focusing on trying to force Hong Qigong not to use dog-beating stick.

There are several cases where simplicity overcomes complexity. Hong Qigong is the one who taught Guo Jing that when facing dazzling techniques, simply palm the opponent and force him to block, don't get caught up in breaking the fancy stances.

Another good illustration is when Huang Rong tried to use dog-beating stick on Golden Wheel Monk. If GWM tried to break the technique of dog-beating stick, I doubt he could "break" (solve) it. And yet, he literally "broke" it (into pieces) by simply sending out a palm.

Of course, it would be harder/impossible for Ouyang Feng to break (into pieces) the dog-beating stick. But the offensive strategy remains the same that he should focus on forcing Hong Qigong to block, rather than getting caught up with the fancy techniques.
01-02-07, 11:21 PM
Dennis Chen

The Serpent Staff was the equal to Dog Beating Stick.
01-02-07, 11:33 PM
Ken Cheng

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJ

There are several cases where simplicity overcomes complexity. Hong Qigong is the one who taught Guo Jing that when facing dazzling techniques, simply palm the opponent and force him to block, don't get caught up in breaking the fancy stances.

Another good illustration is when Huang Rong tried to use dog-beating stick on Golden Wheel Monk. If GWM tried to break the technique of dog-beating stick, I doubt he could "break" (solve) it. And yet, he literally "broke" it (into pieces) by simply sending out a palm.

It makes you wonder why the Golden Wheel Monk never thought about doing this against Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl's Double Sword Attack. Instead of fruitlessly trying to surpass them in fancy technique, wouldn't he have been better off just going BOOM! with his Lung Jeung Bor Yeh Gung?
01-02-07, 11:37 PM
PJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Cheng

It makes you wonder why the Golden Wheel Monk never thought about doing this against Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl's Double Sword Attack. Instead of fruitlessly trying to surpass them in fancy technique, wouldn't he have been better off just going BOOM! with his Lung Jeung Bor Yeh Gung?

Yeah, that's what he could/should have done. And Jin Yong said that if he did do that, Dragon Girl would lose badly. But he was an idiot and didn't do that, so he ended up losing.
01-03-07, 12:48 AM
JigSta

In the sense of him losing batles, he is a "loser". But he lost due to his nature, rather than any superiority of martial arts. He was a great person all around. Even though he had pride in his martial arts (especially the Dog Beating Stick Technique), he had not problems congratulating OYF when the latter worked out how to break his last stance. He did this knowing full well the move could not have been made in real time.

In conclusion, he was a loser in battles (that we saw), but definately not a loser in life.
01-03-07, 12:52 AM
kyss of the sword

Quote:

Yeah, that's what he could/should have done. And Jin Yong said that if he did do that, Dragon Girl would lose badly. But he was an idiot and didn't do that, so he ended up losing.

you couldn't call him an idiot because it wasn't easy for him to use his full power against XLN since she was moving so quickly that if he made a rash move, she could avoid his attack and stab him in the counter attack. pitting force means committing to an attack and that means if you make the wrong move, you might not get the chance to pull back and avoid injury. he could have sent all five wheels out at here, but if he misses, he's in deep $heep. JLFW tried to use force to break yang guo and XLN's combined attack at the restaurant and earlier at xiangyang, but he was unsuccesful and was reluctent to try such a risky strategy with out a sure chance of victory. it probably occured to him that XLN alone probably could not repel his five wheels but he wanted to be sure she couldn't avoid them with her quickness, held back for a sure kill but lost the advantage before that could happen.
01-03-07, 01:27 AM
Dennis Chen

None of the Greats were "losers". OYF had to retrain in Hama Gong after his last encounter with Wang Chongyang for 5 years. Inspite of this, he was still able to catch up with the other 3 Greats again.
10-02-21, 09:53 AM
hyoyatika

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadow8899

OYF would have lost to H7G if they were actually fighting and not just using theory. Likewise, OYF would have lost to H7G on the yatch if not for H7G not wanting to take advantage.

Then why didn't H7G win when they were actually fighting?
10-02-21, 10:08 AM
Western Eccentric

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Cheng

Of the original Greats, North Beggar Hung 7 Gung is my favorite. Not only were his signature martial arts, the Hong Lung 18 Palms and the Dog Beating Stick Technique, extremely powerful and cool, but he also had perhaps the most likeable personality among the original Greats. It's little wonder that Yau Chui Gei picked him as a favorite to win the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament.

Looking at Hung 7 Gung's actual combat record in L/ROCH, however, he seems to be a bit of a "loser." He was defeated by West Poison Au Yeung Fung on the latter's yacht, being badly injured (nearly losing his life) and rendered unable to practice his martial arts for nearly two years. After recovering from his injury thanks to the 9 Yum Jen Ging, Hung 7 Gung did indeed participate in the Second Mt. Hua Tournament, but was unable to defeat 20-year old Gwok Jing within 300 moves. Moreover, Hung 7 Gung lost to Au Yeung Fung two more times in short order immediately before and after that tournament. Twenty years or so later, Hung 7 Gung fought Au Yeung Fung one final time. The fight itself was a draw with both fighters losing their lives, but Au Yeung Fung one-upped Hung 7 Gung again by creating a move that could defeat the ultimate move (No Dogs In The World) of the Dog Beating Stick Technique.

As much as I like Hung 7 Gung, was he a big "loser?"

Well QCJ not favor in H7G "skills" but in H7G character and personality as a "great hero" among Old Greats though his skills might be not necessarily better than the other..