Where is Jebe in ROCH? Why did he not help Mongke and Kublai against Kwok Jing? Where are Tolui and Wah Jeng? Why did they not stop Mongke and Kublai from going after GJ?
Where is Jebe in ROCH? Why did he not help Mongke and Kublai against Kwok Jing? Where are Tolui and Wah Jeng? Why did they not stop Mongke and Kublai from going after GJ?
Jebe died 2 years before Genghis, and Tolui died 5 years after Genghis. They were all gone by ROCH.
Tolui and Jebe were both long dead by the time ROCH begins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trien Chieu
Tolui died a relatively young man, apparently sacrificing himself in some shamanistic ritual to heal the illness of his elder brother Ogodei, who was the second Khan of the Mongol Empire after Genghis. Naturally, Tolui's death didn't actually heal Ogodei (unless one actually believes in the efficacy of shamanistic sacrifices on the health of others), but after Tolui died from drinking poison, Ogodei's health did improve (correlation without causation). I believe Ogodei was still the Khan during the period of ROCH before the sixteen year interlude, but Ogodei never encountered Gwok Jing or any of the other L/ROCH characters again. Presumably, he was busy doing Mongolian Khan things elsewhere.
Jebe is said to have died in battle during the Mongol invasion of Russia.
Princess Hua Jeng, who is based on the historical Princess Khojin, never appeared publicly again after the events of LOCH. Her whereabouts after the end of LOCH are unknown. It is possible that she too perished in the intervening years between LOCH and ROCH.
According to LOCH, Jebe was still alive when Genghis passed away. Poor Jebe. Based LOCH, Jebe did not care about wealth. He was a simple man, live a simple life, enjoy simple things. He could enjoy his long and peaceful life. What a waste.Quote:
Originally Posted by metsrus
Tolui was beyond stupid for drinking poison. Unfortunately, the Mongolians didn't realise that peace is what they need and peace will bring them happiness. All the wealth that they robbed from conquests doesn't last and won't bring them happiness. Pretty much all the khans after Kublai had very short life expectancy. Hardly anyone reached 50 years old with lot of sickness. They were worse off than before their conquests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
The Ming Emperors were hardly paragons of restraint either. However many Emperors had harems that ran into the thousands? How many of them indulged in life extending elixirs or obsessed over ceramics, painting and carpentry while their Dynasty burned?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trien Chieu
So me a dynasty or nation that did not have their foundation in conquest.
The man was a hunter, a warrior, and a leader. He did what he knew best, and I think he accepted very early in his life that dying on the battlefield was his most likely destiny. It came with the territory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trien Chieu
Well...that's religion for you (sometimes; most religious people don't take it that far). Additionally, the Mongols were traditionally shamanists, and if the shaman told you that drinking poison would save your brother's life, you'd do it if you loved your brother (especially if he was the leader of the entire civilization and thus, the most important person to keep alive if at all possible). Of course, with our modern medical science, we know that the shaman's recommendations were utter nonsense, but that's not how 13th Century Mongols saw the world. They were from a time and place before medical science as we know it.Quote:
Tolui was beyond stupid for drinking poison.
They had their ups and downs. I think that the biggest lasting gain for the Mongolians was that they discovered that there was a huge world outside of their steppes full of different cultures, religions, ethnic groups, etc. They didn't know much about that until Genghis began his conquests outside the steppes. More broadly, the Mongol conquests planted the seeds of modern globalism: Europe and East Asia had existed in their separate bubbles up until the Mongol Empire made communication and travel between the two regions practicable. During the time of the ancient Roman Empire and the Han Dynasty of China, Rome and China traded, but only in the Middle East. No Romans (we think) made it to China, and definitely no Chinese made it Roman Europe. Once Europeans and Chinese began to establish permanent diplomatic and trade ties during the reign of the Mongol Empire, there was no turning back on the trend that would lead to the development of the modern world as we know it. After all, it was the travels of Marco Polo and his family to China that inspired Columbus and others to go exploring, and that would have huge consequences for the peoples of Europe, Asia, Africa, and the Americas. Had Genghis Khan never left the steppes, our world today might look very, very different.Quote:
Unfortunately, the Mongolians didn't realise that peace is what they need and peace will bring them happiness. All the wealth that they robbed from conquests doesn't last and won't bring them happiness. Pretty much all the khans after Kublai had very short life expectancy. Hardly anyone reached 50 years old with lot of sickness. They were worse off than before their conquests.
Yeah, but that didn't come from traditional Mongol warrior lifestyle habits; it came, ironically, from the decadence of civilization: eating and drinking too much (as rulers through the ages were wont to do). :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Trien Chieu
Quote:
Originally Posted by metsrus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
When they were poor they did NOT eat all that much of meats and did NOT drink much alcohol. After the conquests with endless wealth, they drank like no tomorrow and ate pretty much meats only. You can't last long with such lifestyle. The Yuan Dynasty went down hill after Kublai passed away. Not just the men but all the women of the upper class and royal family as well. Not just the Yuan Dynasty, but pretty much all Dynasties. The princes usually got married at age of 14-15 years old. A typical prince would marry a wife with a concubine then marry many more a long the way. He would get herbal viagra if needed. No wonder most princes would die at a young age. The vast majority of them would NOT reached 50 years old. Ironically, the eunuchs had much higher life expectancy than the princes. According to Korean history, the average life expectancy of the eunuch was about 70+ years old and the average life expectancy of a royal prince was around 45 or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
Such was life in premodern times, especially for the wealthy and the privileged. I think it's likely that most of the Chinese emperors suffered from gout (which I also do, though I do not consume anything near the quantities of food a typical Chinese emperor did).Quote:
Originally Posted by Trien Chieu
The Yuan Dynasty emperors probably ate the same kinds of things that all Chinese emperors based in Beijing did. They were unlikely to have had to same diet as Genghis Khan did because they weren't living out on the steppes. Though a Chinese emperor could afford to have some delicacies imported, they mostly ate what the local environment could provide because they lived in a time before rapid mass transport and refrigeration. I have the feeling that Yuan emperors gorged themselves on Beijing duck much more than they did on fire-roasted goats. As the Mongols traveled to and came to rule over different territories, they typically took on the look and habits of the locals...including their diets, their clothing, their religious beliefs, and their customs. Many of the Mongols in the western parts of their empire adopted Christianity or Islam as their religions, while those in China adopted either Lama Buddhism or Zen Buddhism. The ones who remained in the original homeland mostly continued with the old shamanistic beliefs, though I believe Lama Buddhism had become the state religion of the Yuan Dynasty.
Both Tolui and Jebe could have long and peaceful life. Unfortunately, they were born in the wrong place at the wrong time.Quote:
Originally Posted by metsrus
Wow, this crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
What you need and what is good for you are very different than what you want. Back in the old days, they think by consuming huge amount of food and having lot of wives will make them strong and healthy. Unfortunately, reality is very very different. Most people who live like that had very short life with lot of illness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Cheng