Had Sweeper Monk not intervened...

[Whsie]

I can't believe you guys are using slap as evidence

[R!chard]

A slap isn't exactly a great technique. Just because he blocked a slap does not mean they tie in techniques.

he was using every method possible to make that slap (stroke wise)....how is that not technique?



and whsie is cute

[PJ]

I did not have the chance to reply to this topic for a while.

yes but my point is that mastery of weapons doesn't matter they don't use it in a fight.

Martial arts isn't just about who can defeat who straight up; somewhere in there Sophistication also plays a role.

i mean ok, you are a master of swords and non weapon combat, but since ur sword is inferior, what would u rather use? your fist or the sword?

What I said was that Xiao Yuanshan could use weapon to do things that Xiao Feng could not do in non-combat situations. That means Xiao Yuanshan's martial arts can be considered more refined than Xiao Feng. It doesn't mean that Xiao Yuanshan can actually outperform Xiao Feng in an actual fight, but as I proposed before, there is more to martial arts than just who can defeat who straight up. For example: some kung fu go hand in hand with enlightenment, and one does not become enlightened in order to defeat more people. People also refine their kung fu as they get older, and they can be considered better experts in the field of martial arts.

there usually isn't enough evidence to consider all this. do you really think we can gather all of the data and compare them before ranking everyone? in that case, don't you have to consider claws, fingers, etc, etc? how can we even compare then?

I am just considering the facts stated in the novel.

(stated xf can catch mrb and xys can't really keep up)

Xiao Yuanshan cannot outrun Murong Bo but he CAN maintain a static distance very well; and nowhere was it stated that Xiao Feng can catch Murong Bo. It is implied that Xiao Feng might be able to run slightly faster but that sentence is still open to interpretation.

and he is younger.....what kinda logic is it that xf is not better?

You might be surprised with what warrior spirit Xiao Yuanshan showed in his younger days. I have quoted the relevant description of papa Xiao's fierceness in his battle with the Central Plains experts. Naturally he progressed towards a more sophisticated style as he aged, but that doesn't mean he can't bust out some of that fierceness from his youth which doesn't sound inferior to his son.

起初他連接數招，只是奪去我們兄弟的兵刃，並不傷人，待見妻子一死，眼睛登時紅了，臉上神色可怖之極。那時 候我一見到他的目光，不由得心驚膽戰，不敢上前。」

那遼人雙臂斜兜，不知用什麼擒拿手法，便奪到了我們兩位兄弟的兵刃，跟著一刺一劈，當場殺了二人。他有時從 馬背上飛縱而下，有時又躍回馬背，兔起鶻落，行如鬼魅。不錯，他真如是個魔鬼化身，東邊一沖，殺了一人；西 面這麼一轉又殺了一人。只片刻之間，我們二十一人之中，已有九人死在他手下。」

這一來大夥兒都紅了眼睛，帶頭大哥、汪幫主等個個捨命上前，跟他纏頭，可是那人武功實在太過奇特厲害，一招 一式，總是從決計料想不到的方位襲來。其時夕陽如血，雁關門外朔風呼號之中，夾雜著一聲聲英雄好漢臨死時的 叫喚，頭顱四肢，鮮血兵刃，在空中亂飛亂擲，那時候本領再強的高手也只能自保，誰也無法去救助 旁人。」

「我見到這等情勢，心下實是嚇得厲害，然而見眾兄弟一個個慘死，不由得熱血沸騰，
鼓起勇氣，騎馬向他直衝過去。我雙手舉起大刀，向他頭頂急劈，知道這一劈倘若不中，我
的性命便也交給他了。眼見大刀刃口離他頭頂已不過尺許，突見那遼人抓了一人，將他的腦
袋湊到我刀下。我一瞥之下，見這人是江西杜氏三雄中的老二，自是大吃一驚，百忙中硬生
生的收刀。大刀急縮，喀的一聲，劈在我坐騎頭上，那馬一聲哀嘶，跳了起來。便在此時，
那遼人的一掌也已擊到。幸好我的坐騎不遲不早，剛在這時候跳起，擋接了他這一掌，否則
我筋骨齊斷，那裡還有命在？」

「他這一掌的力道好不雄渾，將我擊得連人帶馬，向後仰跌而出，我身子飛了起來，落
在一株大樹樹頂，架在半空。那時我已驚得渾渾噩噩，也不知自己是死是活，身在何處。從
半空中望將下來，但見圍在那遼人身周的兄弟越來越少，只剩下了五六人，跟著看見這位仁
兄……」說著望向趙錢孫，續道：「身子一晃，倒在血泊之中，只道他也送了性命。」

趙錢孫搖頭道：「這種醜事雖然說來有愧，卻也不必相瞞，我不是受了傷，乃是嚇得暈
了過去。我見那遼人抓住杜二哥的兩條腿，往兩邊一撕，將他身子撕成兩半，五臟六腑都流
了出來。我突覺自己的心不跳了，眼前一黑，什麼都不知道了。不錯，我是個膽小鬼，見到
別人殺人，竟曾嚇得暈了過去。」

智光道：「見了這遼人猶如魔鬼般的殺害眾兄弟，若說不怕，那可是欺人之談。」他向
掛在山頂天空的眉月望了一眼，又道：「那時和那遼經纏頭的，只剩下四個人了。帶頭大哥
自知無幸，終究會死在他的手下，連聲喝問：『你是誰？你是誰？』那遼人並不答話，轉手
兩個回合，再殺二人，忽起一足，踢中了汪幫主背心上的穴道，跟著左足鴛鴦連環，又踢中
了帶頭大哥肋下穴道。這人以足尖踢人穴道，認穴之準，腳法之奇，直是匪夷所思。若不是
我自知死在臨頭，而遭殃的又是我最敬仰的二人，幾乎脫口便要喝出採來。」

... 那遼人突然間仰天長嘯，從地下拾起一柄短刀，在山峰的石壁上劃起字來 ... 那些契彤文字深入石中，幾及兩寸，他以一柄短刀隨意刻劃而成，單是這份手勁，我看便已獨步天下 ，無人能及。

---
Lastly, Pardon me for saying, but the way of Xiao Feng's martial arts are rather crude compared to his peers, according to the second edition of the novels. Yes, he has more power than the others and he has the warrior spirit, but in terms of stylistic sophistication, he is below Jiumozhi, the old Xiao Yuanshan, Guo Jing, Zhou Botong, Yideng, Huang Yaoshi, and maybe even his successor Hong Qigong. If you have doubts would you please consult the various discussions posted over the years about Xiao Feng compared to various folks. I have read these topics multiple times and my conclusion is that Xiao Feng has great power but lacks refinement. Thank you very much.

[Ken Cheng]

I have read these topics multiple times and my conclusion is that Xiao Feng has great power but lacks refinement. Thank you very much.

With power like that, however, who needs refinement?

[CC]

I I have read these topics multiple times and my conclusion is that Xiao Feng has great power but lacks refinement. Thank you very much.

I find that hard to accept due to the way he was narrated as being a martial arts genius and how he was able to master any art immediately.

Hard to re-concile the ability of one who is a prodigy at mastering a skill yet shows no refinement in that same skill!

[Black Night Sea]

he was using every method possible to make that slap (stroke wise)....how is that not technique?

I get it too. All 20 moves used on his son were in fact the most common form of domestic assault: slapping. The Great Xiao Yuanshan is a retard who has this certain fetish for b*tchslapping people to death. Forget martial arts, slapping is your best bet of survival in the wulin.

I have read these topics multiple times and my conclusion is that Xiao Feng has great power but lacks refinement. Thank you very much.

To restrict the amount of time spent gazing at a computer screen, this is all I'm going to say regarding this ftm:

1) When he threw out a palm and struck Zhiguang's acupoint is that not a high level attained in refinement in palm technique? Especially considering how concentrated and soft that force yielded from his palm must be, in order to prevent harm done to a person who's lost all his martial arts ability.

2) Does his Taizu Long Fist not have a good balance in softness and hardness? Up to the point where even in the author's appraisal it was "the state of perfection in fist technique" not "perfection in just Taizu Long Fist".

3) When he waved 7 small arrows off the floor with his sleeves and sent them flying towards Ah Zi, each and every one of them weren't that far from making contact to several locations of her body prior to being pinned onto a wall. Doesn't that show some degree of control in his power?

4) In Shaolin, as he struck the judge pen that was heading towards Duan Yu with "Seeing Dragon In The Field" from a distance, the judge pen became crooked under his force and twirled round DY's head as well as eventually heading back to the assailant like a boomerang. It even caused discomfort to MRF's arm when he tried to smash it away with his own pen in the process. Is that all power?

Anything that's missed out which does downplay XF's refinement against his fellow Tianlong Greats, please point it out.

[Whsie]

I actually agree with PJ on the arts.

He of course has good refinement, but compared to the OTHERS of his level? I'm certainly more convinced that the other fighters of his level such as the ROCH Greats and the other TLBB Elites all have greater refinement.

[CC]

I actually agree with PJ on the arts.

He of course has good refinement, but compared to the OTHERS of his level? I'm certainly more convinced that the other fighters of his level such as the ROCH Greats and the other TLBB Elites all have greater refinement.

This seems to be JY's description of XF working against him this time.

Many fans overrate XF due to the way JY/TVB portray him as the brutal butt kicking Yang Gang hero. That same image might also give people the impression that he is more brute force then refinement.

[kyss of the sword]

XF was described as jinyongs most unbeatable fighter, so i doubt he lacks refinement, but while he's amazingly adaptive and creative, with amazing fighting instinct, his skills are a little below the other greats of the condor trilogy and the older generation of DGSD in refinement. remember that the HL18Z was refined twice in LOCH and ROCH. and the condor trilogy had 9YIN zhenjing. but it was the narrowest of margins. HYS's divne desending orchid sword plams are actually more refined then HQG's HL18Z and have much more clever variations, but HL18Z is superior because it uses simplicity to overcome cleverness. XF was like this. he was rather DGKB in style, overcoming much more refined techniques and 'skilled'(in number of martial arts practised and mastered) fighters with direct and powerful attacks.

[Extremer88]

XF was described as jinyongs most unbeatable fighter, so i doubt he lacks refinement, but while he's amazingly adaptive and creative, with amazing fighting instinct, his skills are a little below the other greats of the condor trilogy

I don't think his skills are a little below the greats. Xiao Feng is actually a skilled fighter.

[kyss of the sword]

i posted "below the greats.... in refinement". he was equal in fighting but his skills did not have as many variations or complex changes as their skills did, or as much strange and unique usage of inner power, but he did have exqusite variations and changes, and advanced inner power techniques.

[Whsie]

i posted "below the greats.... in refinement". he was equal in fighting but his skills did not have as many variations or complex changes as their skills did, or as much strange and unique usage of inner power, but he did have exqusite variations and changes, and advanced inner power techniques.

yep, I agree.

XF's art was just this and this and this. While the likes of HYS, GJ, JMZ and others are this, this, this, this, this all mastered. XF mainly makes that disadvantage up with his warrior ability.

[CC]

yep, I agree.

XF's art was just this and this and this. While the likes of HYS, GJ, JMZ and others are this, this, this, this, this all mastered. XF mainly makes that disadvantage up with his warrior ability.

Looking at just his display of Tai Zu Quan and Xiang Long Zhang, how can you say its 'this, this, this and _not_ mastered?'

Its explicitly stated that he learns every skill immediately and once learnt, masters it like magic. How does this reconcile with your statement?

[Athena]

Its explicitly stated that he learns every skill immediately and once learnt, masters it like magic. How does this reconcile with your statement?

I have no interest in this discussion at all. But for the record I would like to state:"I believe that Xiao Feng is a formidabale fighter and martial arts genius."*
But I take it CC, that you based [Its explicitly stated that he learns every skill immediately and once learnt, masters it like magic. How does this reconcile with your statement?]

on the following paragraph:

[他天生异稟，實是學武的奇才，受業師父玄苦大師和汪幫主武功已然甚高，蕭峰卻青出于藍，更遠遠 胜過了兩位師 父，任何一招平平無奇的招數到了他手中，自然而然發出巨大無比的威力。熟識他的人都說這等武學 天賦實是与生 俱來，非靠傳授与苦學所能獲致。蕭峰自己也說不出所以然來，只覺什么招數一學即會，一會即精， 臨敵之際，自 然而然有諸般巧妙變化。但除了武功之外，讀書、手藝等等都只平平而已，也与常人無异。他生平罕 逢敵手，許多 強敵內力比他深厚，招數比他巧妙，但一到交手，總是在最要緊的關頭，以一招半式之差而敗了下來 ，而且輸得心 服口服，自知終究無可匹敵，從來沒人再去找他尋仇雪恥。] (edition 2, chapter 24).

As I said many times before, this entire section does NOT exist anymore in edition 3.

* I don't want to be portrayed as a DGSD basher.

[Black Night Sea]

XF mainly makes that disadvantage up with his warrior ability.

From warrior ability I guess you mean "fighting spirit/fighting morale" 戰意?

Does GJ not have any?

Where were signs of GJ giving up when he was injured severely by Nimoxing and when he continued to battle against these 3 Mongolian warriors whom he was well aware could beat him under normal circumstances let alone during injury?

And how come Xiangyang fell much later than originally planned by the Mongolians?

I think these two examples and plenty more where that came from have cemented his reputation as one of Jinyong's most stubborn fighters. Xiao Yuanshan is also one of them; GJ belongs to these group of people who doesn't give a damn about the adversities of their situations whether the odds are against them etc.

So you see everyone has their own kind of 戰意. Saying this single factor enhances ones performance in battle is reasonable, but it wasn't like GJ and XYS etc didn't rely on something like that too.

Many fans overrate XF due to the way JY/TVB portray him as the brutal butt kicking Yang Gang hero. That same image might also give people the impression that he is more brute force then refinement.

TVB's productions actually made a good job of their portrayal of Xiao Feng (if Felix Wong's annihilation of the entire Xixia division was discounted). It's CCTV's version which needs to be questioned. Total abuse of sfx.

[Whsie]

From warrior ability I guess you mean "fighting spirit/fighting morale" 戰意?

Does GJ not have any?

Where were signs of GJ giving up when he was injured severely by Nimoxing and when he continued to battle against these 3 Mongolian warriors whom he was well aware could beat him under normal circumstances let alone during injury?

And how come Xiangyang fell much later than originally planned by the Mongolians?

I think these two examples and plenty more where that came from have cemented his reputation as one of Jinyong's most stubborn fighters. Xiao Yuanshan is also one of them; GJ belongs to these group of people who doesn't give a damn about the adversities of their situations whether the odds are against them etc.

So you see everyone has their own kind of 戰意. Saying this single factor enhances ones performance in battle is reasonable, but it wasn't like GJ and XYS etc didn't rely on something like that too.


TVB's productions actually made a good job of their portrayal of Xiao Feng (if Felix Wong's annihilation of the entire Xixia division was discounted). It's CCTV's version which needs to be questioned. Total abuse of sfx.

GJ of course has warrior ability, but not to the extent of XF does in combat. XF has the most and probably is only matched by his father-XYS (he also has less tools than JMZ or MRB, but he still is able to make it up with warrior ability) in warrior ability.

The Tv series usually give a good potrayal of XF, but they usually make XF's martial arts too powerful (as in over what the book tells).

[Ken Cheng]

Gwok Jing and Kiu Fung both have extraordinary warrior abilities...probably the two best among the main heroes. There's no denying, however, that Kiu Fung was the faster of the two in acquiring new skills. Given the same set of circumstances, both could master a given martial art, but Kiu Fung will arrive there quicker.

[Whsie]

yes, that is true, but XF unfortunetly doesn't has as good material as GJ to work with. So in the end, GJ still is near XF.

[ChronoReverse]

The only thing XF doesn't have that GJ has is 9 Yin. But XF has access to Shaolin arts (which in themselves are quite excellent). Obviously XF has the edge but then again, GJ showed that he could grasp advance concepts quickly.

[Whsie]

well, GJ has access to more genius and refined works such as the Dipper Formation, Divine Flick (though GJ didn't really practice it a lot), Vacant Fist which I say are a bit greater than the Shaolin Supreme Arts. And 9 Yin for sure was better than the Shaolin cultivations (well, except YJJ).

And since XF never been in Shaolin when he was young, I don't think he had access to all the Shaolin arts he wanted. I think he could only learn what Xuanku teaches him.