View Poll Results: Who do you think deserves punishment most?

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31. You may not vote on this poll
  • Xuan Ming Elders

    3 9.68%
  • Granny Gold Flower

    0 0%
  • Zhao Man

    3 9.68%
  • Chen YouLiang

    12 38.71%
  • ZZR

    5 16.13%
  • Ding Man Jun

    8 25.81%
  • Other, Please state

    0 0%
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Thread: HSDS's Unpunished - Who Will You Teach a Lesson

  1. #1
    Senior Member Zhuge Liang's Avatar
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    Default HSDS's Unpunished - Who Will You Teach a Lesson

    I got the idea from an article about HSDS's unpunished characters. Basically the author noticed that a large amount of characters got away unpunished at the end of HSDS, more than is usual for a Jin Yong novel.

    Who do you most want to receive punishment?
    Any suggestions for the type of punishment?
    Why?

    1) Xuan Ming Elders
    For the crap they did to ZWJ & their part in aiding the government against Wulin, they escaped justice.

    2) Granny Gold Flower
    She kills the healer and his wife, poisoned all those ppl she sent to Butterfly Valley, has ulterior designs on Xie Xun & the rest of the Ming Cult. Yet she escapes her BBQ and goes back to Persia reunited with her daughter without her disguise, as mother of the Holy Virgin ruler.

    3) Zhao Man
    She was excessively cruel to the Wulin fighters she imprisoned eg. chopping Ho Tai Chong and others fingers off when she was wanting to learn their skills on the pretense of letting them gain their freedom. I don't think they ever got revenge on her since she was under the protection of ZWJ & the Ming Cult later on, save for some suffering which ZZR caused her on Serpent Island.

    She ends up with the one she loves and presumably lives happily ever after.

    4) Chen YouLiang
    His teacher was punished by Xie Xun but his disciple escaped unscathed despite his attempts to kill XX, manipulating SQS, his part in poisoning everyone in Wutang, his part in taking over Beggar Clan etc etc

    5) ZZR
    She tries to kill XX several times, for all intents did enough to kill Zhe Er, framed ZM and left her die on the raft, poisoned ppl, manipulated SQS, disobeyed her Sifu. But throughout it all she portrays herself as the victim and righteous. At the end a little apology and all is forgiven.

    She ends up with a powerful kung fu manual & still leader of Emei.

    6) Ding Man Jun
    This cow had NO redeeming features and her actions were not motivated by anything other than jealousy and self-gain. She is mean to her colleagues & ZZR in particular. Her part in the renunciation of ZZR as leader was downright cruel yet she is never punished.
    Last edited by Zhuge Liang; 12-17-04 at 09:41 PM.
    TristeCoeur on Lady Yang: Someone needs 2 tell her that when u want 2 save people from being killed, u need to hurry the hell up, not play bull#### music & dance around. Her mission failed big time

  2. #2
    Senior Member c13:4567's Avatar
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    Xuan Ming Elders were forced to leave the mongols and at the end of the nove, fought each other, both due to Zhao min's ruse. they could have killed each other or seriously injured one another. but yeah, if they remain fine and patch things up, justice would not be served.


    Granny Gold Flower had led a life of prejudice, hardship and fear. she could rarely see her own flesh and blood, and had to constantly disguise herself and act as an old lady. i don't know if she would be happy in persia.

    zhao min lost everything: wealth, status , family, power and disowned her ethinicity for zhang wuji. yet at the end, her man don't even know whether he loves zhiruo or her more. thats pretty tough. besides zhiruo has that one demand to use against her.


    Chen YouLiang later died and his uprising failed.

    zhiruo was humiliated at her wedding night, suffered mentally from her misdeeds and deeply regretted them at the end. emei and her reputation also came back to earth after the shaolin thing was over. she also lost the manaul. besides, it all came to naught in the end. she still had to fight with zhao again for wuji.


    don't know what happen to our dear ding min jun at the end.

    anyway, IMO, its all besides the point. zhang wuji himself does not seek revenge or punishment, despite all the wrongs done to him. he is too nice a person. maybe jin yong is trying to express something.

  3. #3
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    i will go for chen youliang.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Your poll missed the most important choice: Mie Jue.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

  5. #5
    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide
    Your poll missed the most important choice: Mie Jue.
    She died. So, she already got her just dessert. Unless u want to see her burn in hell before u are satisfied.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    That was like nothing. Burning in hell... not good enough. Burning in Candide's version of hell, maybe... ^_^
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

  7. #7
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Good people seem to suffer the most in HSDS (what did Yu Doi Nam, Cheung Chui San, Gei Hiu Fu, etc., do to deserve their terrible fates?), and more than in most other Jin Yong stories, the evil did get out of the story unpunished. It was probably Jin Yong's way of expressing his frustration at an unjust world where no good deed goes unpunished.

  8. #8
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    Zhu Yuan Zhang.

  9. #9
    Senior Member rabadi's Avatar
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    I would go for Chen You Liang... except that he was a historical figure, and since Jin Yong couldn't change that, he had to let Chen go in HSDS. So, if Chen You Liang is not a choice, then I'd go for punishing Ding Man Jun.

  10. #10
    Senior Member qiaofeng's Avatar
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    chen youliang was a historical figure ? dont u mean zhu yuan zhang ?

  11. #11
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qiaofeng
    chen youliang was a historical figure ? dont u mean zhu yuan zhang ?
    Both were historical figures. When the Chinese rebelled against the Mongols at the end of the Yuan Dynasty, they were not one unified group: there were different factions. Chu Yeun Cheung and Chan Yau Leung each led separate anti-Mongol factions. After the Yuan Dynasty fell, these factions vied for power. Eventually, Chu Yeun Cheung defeated Chan Yau Leung (and others) to become the first Emperor of the Ming Dynasty.

  12. #12
    Senior Member charbydis's Avatar
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    Ding Man Jun definately. And I think the punishment given to her in the novel is not enough (like being slapped around by Mie Jue, being called ugly, never getting favour). She should at least be kicked out of Emei or crippled of martial arts or be given to Yang Bu Hui as a slave (remember how YBH treated XZ as a maid, and her resembelance to JXF can haunt her).
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  13. #13
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    I would say the Yuan Ming elders. Could have been CYJL, but since they have two people, I guess so. Although Ding Man Jun is deplorable, I still rank jealousy and spitefulness as petty malice.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

  14. #14
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superboy
    Although Ding Man Jun is deplorable, I still rank jealousy and spitefulness as petty malice.
    She was worse than that, however. Remember the vicious manner in which she blinded one of Pang the Monk's eyes? This woman was quite evil.

    The ghost of poor Gwok Seung probably wondered what the hell happened to her sect.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    She was worse than that, however. Remember the vicious manner in which she blinded one of Pang the Monk's eyes? This woman was quite evil.

    The ghost of poor Gwok Seung probably wondered what the hell happened to her sect.
    Leadership falling into the hands of the wrong type of people (though can we say that it's the good judgement of Miejue that she never really liked or rather, favoured DMJ? ). And twice in a roll. How sad. T___T
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  16. #16
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guo Xiang
    Leadership falling into the hands of the wrong type of people (though can we say that it's the good judgement of Miejue that she never really liked or rather, favoured DMJ? ). And twice in a roll. How sad. T___T
    You should have left better protocols for succession.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Zhuge Liang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    She was worse than that, however. Remember the vicious manner in which she blinded one of Pang the Monk's eyes? This woman was quite evil.

    The ghost of poor Gwok Seung probably wondered what the hell happened to her sect.
    What happened with the Pang the Monk getting blinded? It's just it was never shown in any of the series i can recall.

    -----------------

    In terms of righteousness and differentiating right and wrong Emei really ranked quite low but at least in terms of kung fu they earn respect / fear and were not bullied. If MJ had left leadership to the others Emei may not have made it back to Mt Emei given their run-in with Granny Goldflower. The eldest disciple had some backbone but gave too much way to DMJ and had poor skills and little potential left. DMJ was a spineless mutha despite her mouthing of like nothing else all the time.

    Perhaps MJ was the least worst candidate of her generation. ZZR would have been a good leader if not for her love for ZWJ. She could retreive the weapons, had great potential, was beautiful, and caculating as hell.

    While under MJ & ZZR Emei was more vicious than the other 6 Sects, the others save for Wutang were no angels either. I mean one clan leader poisons and abducts ZWJ & Buhai as kids, another uses the dirtiest secret weapon on ZWJ during the Bright Peak battle. Shaolin we all know about.
    TristeCoeur on Lady Yang: Someone needs 2 tell her that when u want 2 save people from being killed, u need to hurry the hell up, not play bull#### music & dance around. Her mission failed big time

  18. #18
    Senior Member qiaofeng's Avatar
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    yeah but u gotta take into account that emei was a taoist sect and meijue was a nun. arent nuns supposed to be more merciful and benevolent. even thou quanzhen sucked after qiu chuji messed up, the priests in general are not that bad, save for zhao zhijing and yinzhiping

  19. #19
    Senior Member Yang Guo's Avatar
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    I wonder... Ding was a stupid (insert profanity here) and did bad things, but did she have the evil (and brains) to do the things Chen YouLiang did?
    Last edited by Yang Guo; 01-09-05 at 03:31 PM.

  20. #20
    Senior Member qiaofeng's Avatar
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    she pretty dumb. nowhere near as scheming as chen youliang, quan guanqing and zhu yuanzhang

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