Figuring out the historical context of Gu Long's novels

[Ken Cheng]

Jin Yong's wuxia novels are so deeply embedded within the context of actual Chinese history that it's easy to identify the era in which each story unfolded. Anyone who is even reasonably familiar with Chinese history knows that DEMIGODS & SEMIDEVILS occurred during the Northern Sung Dynasty (A.D. 960-1127), LEGEND OF THE CONDOR HEROES and RETURN OF THE CONDOR HEROES took place during the Southern Sung Dynasty (1127-1279), HEAVEN SWORD & DRAGON SABRE during the Yuan Dynasty (1279-1368), STATE OF DIVINITY and CRIMSON SABRE during the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644), and DUKE OF MT. DEER, BOOK AND SWORD: GRATITUDE AND REVENGE, and FLYING FOX OF SNOWY MOUNTAIN during the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911).

With Gu Long, things are not as certain. Gu Long's novels never took place within a specific historical context; we only know that his stories occurred before modern times. TV and film adaptations of Gu Long's most popular novels depict the characters as definitely pre-Qing Dynasty (i.e. the characters are never shown in the characteristic pigtails and half-shaved heads of the Qing Dynasty era), but how far pre-Qing is uncertain. Such famous sects as Mo Dong Sect and Ngor Mei Sect are referenced in popular novels such as LUK SIU FUNG, CHOR LAU HEUNG, and the LITTLE LEE'S FLYING DAGGER series, and in Jin Yong's universe, that would peg the stories as Ming Dynasty (as there was no discussion of Mongol rule, and the emperor who appeared in LUK SIU FUNG was clearly a Han Chinese). Gu Long's Mo Dong and Ngor Mei, however, did not necessarily originate during the Yuan Dynasty as they did in Jin Yong's universe.

The most likely conclusion, however, is that all Gu Long stories took place during the Ming Dynasty.

[junny]

Far as I remember, there was a reference in Luk Siu Fung to Toyotomi Hideyoshi (1536-1598), but I cannot remember exactly where it is located.

[Ken Cheng]

Far as I remember, there was a reference in Luk Siu Fung to Toyotomi Hideyoshi (1536-1598), but I cannot remember exactly where it is located.

That's an interesting fact because although China was aware of Japan's existence more or less from the beginning of Japan's existence as a distinct civilization, it wasn't until China's Ming Dynasty that China began to regard Japan as a significant presence in Asia. Before that, Japan was just an island culture whose affairs were very much on the periphery of what was going on in the central plains.

Hence, more confirmation that LUK SIU FUNG, at least, occurred during the Ming Dynasty.

[Dennis Chen]

The Mongols were concerned enough with Japan to attack it.

[Ken Cheng]

The Mongols were concerned enough with Japan to attack it.

And that was the first significant occassion of the mainland Asian civilization really taking Japan into serious consideration. Up until that point, Japan was always an afterthought on the mainland. Things would change from that point forward.

[Laviathan]

Junny and I found the particular scene in the novel.

Phoenix Dancing in the Ninth Heaven, Chapter 7:

小老头点点头：“现在扶桑园中是丰臣秀吉当政，此一代枭雄，野心极大，对
我国和朝鲜都久有染指之意。

陆小凤：“你怎么会知道这件事的？要勾结丰臣秀吉的朝中要员是谁？”

The little old man nodded his head and said: "Now, the land of Nippon is ruled by Toyotomi Hideyoshi. This ambitious warlord has an insatiable desire for conquest, he has long wanted to encroach on our nation and Korea."

Lu Xiaofeng: "How did you know of this? Who is the court official plotting with Hideyoshi?"

Hideyoshi became regent in 1585* and received the family name Toyotomi. He did not invade Korea until 1592. So, logically the story took place between 1585 -1592.

Thanks goes to Junny for providing historical info.


*Some sources claim this year, some don't.

[Laviathan]

... and the emperor who appeared in LUK SIU FUNG was clearly a Han Chinese

And of course, Ye Gucheng and Ximen Chuixue were said to battle...

"At the night of the full moon in the Forbidden City, the Sword from the West meets the Flying Deity..."

The Forbidden City was built during the Ming Dynasty.

[atlantean0208]

Like other writer at his time, GL is purposely writing his wuxia as vague as possible when it come to the time period to not offend the "AUTHORITY" especially the one in mainland china.

JY doesn't have any problem with this as most of his writing time, he is based in HK - a British colonial territory.

Its understandable that most of GL novel, the time period is hardly recognisable

[Yang Guo]

Basically it just feels like ALL of his stories took place in the Ming Dynasty

[Ken Cheng]

Here's another clue for LUK SIU FUNG's time period:

In Book 1, one of the characters from the Sky Lyre Sect was seen smoking a tobacco pipe. Tobacco was not discovered by any Eurasians until *at least* 1492, when Christopher Columbus landed in Hispaniola. Chances are, tobacco didn't come into China via Europe until at least sometime in the mid-1500s.

[junny]

Here's another clue for LUK SIU FUNG's time period:

In Book 1, one of the characters from the Sky Lyre Sect was seen smoking a tobacco pipe. Tobacco was not discovered by any Eurasians until *at least* 1492, when Christopher Columbus landed in Hispaniola. Chances are, tobacco didn't come into China via Europe until at least sometime in the mid-1500s.

Laviathan and I previously established that "Phoenix Dancing in Ninth Heaven" (the 6th Lu Xiaofeng story) is set between 1585-1592, because of the reference to Toyotomi Hideyoshi.

We also found that the only Ming emperor during that period was Shen Zong (Wanli), who ruled from 1573-1620. His reign began to crumble around 1580, and one of China's most famous statemen Zhang Juzheng, who had a great influence in Ming politics, died in 1582. Ye Gucheng wanted to get rid of a lousy emperor, but Lu Xiaofeng thwarted his attempt. "The Duel" could probably be set earlier or around 1580.

But Gu Long probably did not have any specific emperor in mind when he wrote the story.

[Ken Cheng]

Ye Gucheng wanted to get rid of a lousy emperor, but Lu Xiaofeng thwarted his attempt.

I have no idea about the leadership record of said Ming emperor, but he seemed to be a man of great personal integrity and courage...a man who had the right personal characteristics to be a very good leader. Whether or not that actually translated into sound administration of his country's affairs is unknown.

[junny]

I have no idea about the leadership record of said Ming emperor, but he seemed to be a man of great personal integrity and courage...a man who had the right personal characteristics to be a very good leader. Whether or not that actually translated into sound administration of his country's affairs is unknown.

The historical Emperor Wanli was a very lousy and incompetent ruler. The novel's fictional Emperor, however, seemed to be a very strong, able monarch as per your description (frankly I can't remember much about him, been ages since I read the novel). Goes to show that too much pigeonholing fiction into specific periods of history isn't always a good idea.

[Ian Liew]

And of course, Ye Gucheng and Ximen Chuixue were said to battle...

"At the night of the full moon in the Forbidden City, the Sword from the West meets the Flying Deity..."

The Forbidden City was built during the Ming Dynasty.

Gu Long referenced the hall as the Hall of Supreme Harmony, or Taihedian, though. The hall was not named Taihedian until the Qing Dynasty, when Shunzhi wanted to rename lots of bits of the Forbidden City. It was called Hall of Heaven Serving, or Fengtiandian, during the Ming Dynasty.

I'm still inclined to think that it was Ming Dynasty, though, and that Gu Long just probably slipped on his history on that one. Seeing Lu Xiaofeng and co in queues just takes away a lot of the romantic effect... =)

In addition, I don't think the Qing Dynasty had a Dongchang/Eastern Factory/Secratariat (what is the proper translation, out of curiousity?) or Brocaded Guards/Jinyiwei?

[Han Solo]

DongChang has been variously translated into East Faction or even East Depot!

[Ken Cheng]

Discovered an interesting point about establishing the date of the LUK SIU FUNG saga:

In the first story arc (THE GOLDEN ROC KINGDOM'S TREASURE), Luk Siu Fung mentioned that the wooden shack wherein Fok Yau first appeared in the story was once the residence of the poet Luk Yau (Lu You), whom Luk Siu Fung indicated had lived three-hundred years earlier. Luk Yau was a writer during the Southern Sung Dynasty (circa 1200)...around the time of LEGEND OF THE CONDOR HEROES in Jin Yong's universe. Hence, the LUK SIU FUNG saga definitely unfolded sometime during the 1500s.

If LUK SIU FUNG was contemporary with the SENTIMENTAL SWORDSMAN stories, however, we run into a problem unless both sagas happened in the early 1500s. After SENTIMENTAL SWORDSMAN there must be sufficient time for the BORDERTOWN WANDERER, THIRD YOUNG MASTER'S SWORD, and FULL MOON, CRESCENT SABRE sagas. That's all right if we assume that both LUK SIU FUNG and SENTIMENTAL SWORDSMAN occurred during the early 1500s, but if they were contemporary and occurred in the late 1500s, then it's too late for the subsequent three stories which would have run into the Qing Dynasty.

[AresInvincible]

Like other writer at his time, GL is purposely writing his wuxia as vague as possible when it come to the time period to not offend the "AUTHORITY" especially the one in mainland china.

JY doesn't have any problem with this as most of his writing time, he is based in HK - a British colonial territory.

Its understandable that most of GL novel, the time period is hardly recognisable

Actually, GL wrote his novels in Taiwan, which at that time, also had little connection with mainland China. Really, I think GL would care less if authorities in China disliked his works for not being politically correct. The thing is, GL did not have the knowledge to base his works in any concrete time periods. Look at JY, look at LYS, and even look at Huang Yi. They've all had an artistic/literature upbringing, they studied. GL, on the other hand, graduated from an architectural college. He wrote Wuxia stories for the sole purpose to keep a living, unlike JY who wrote for his own newspaper (Ming Bao). GL knew that he would not compete with the likes of JY in historic accuracy, so he made the plot of his stories more intricate and confusing, like a mystery novel.

[BlackRaven]

Very interesting facts. So the Lu Xiao Feng saga definitely takes places during the 1580s.

Also, the tobacco fact mentioned by Ken is proof that even Sentimental Swordsman Ruthless Sword (XLFD) takes place in the 1500s as well. The #1 ranked fighter on Bai XiaoSheng's weapon list, Old Man Sun, loved to smoke tobacco.

There is another hint that XLFD takes place during the Ming dynasty. Meh kindly expounded on historical details during his translation, and we can see that Beijing was a capital during this story.

The street is very crowded, almost as much as the Sky Bridge* in the capital city. There are all sorts of things to buy here. It’s still not noon yet, but vendors have already setup booths all over the street. There are all sorts of snacks, all sorts of circus acts, and all sorts of customers.

*Note: Sky Bridge is a location in old Beijing famous for its circus atmosphere.

Beijing only became a capital during the Ming dynasty, in 1402 or 1403. For most of the Song dynasty, Beijing was in the possession of non-Han powers.

So XLFD's story probably takes place after 1492, the earlier the year, the more avant-garde Old Man Sun and his pipe are

Now to find out the time period of Ming Jian Feng Liu ( The Sword and the Exquisiteness ). One hint is that the Beggar Clan had existed for some 300 years by the time MJFL takes place. The Tang Clan of Sichuan had also been famous for some 300 years.

MJFL also makes a reference to Beijing, although not as a capital city.

On a related note, it is highly surprising that the Tang Clan made ZERO appearances during XLFD, Bordertown Wanderer or Eagles Flying in September. Maybe Gu Long did not want Li XunHuan's dagger to overshadow the Tang Clan's ingenious secret weapons and render them completely irrelevant.

[Trien Chieu]

The historical Emperor Wanli was a very lousy and incompetent ruler. The novel's fictional Emperor, however, seemed to be a very strong, able monarch as per your description (frankly I can't remember much about him, been ages since I read the novel). Goes to show that too much pigeonholing fiction into specific periods of history isn't always a good idea.

This is not quite true. Historically, Wanli was a great emperor during his Middle Reign (1582 - 1600). He was a very bad emperor during his Late Reign (1600 - 1620). Therefore, during the time of Yip Goo Sing, the emperor was great. According to wikipedia, Wanli was similar to other Chinese emperors who were initially successful, but whose subsequent poor rule caused the eventual demise of their dynasties, such as both Emperor Gaozong and Emperor Xuanzong of the Tang and the Qianlong Emperor of the Qing Dynasty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanli_Emperor