Third edition changes

[Jeanie5354]

A w e s o m e !

[Whsie]

btw, I just reread the 1st book of HSDS 2nd edition today. Hm, I just realized I missed out that when Z3F's disciple was explaining 9 Yang to Yin Su Su, it said that 9 Yang was a Daoist (why do people write Tao? it's clearly Dao. It's even written this way in my textbook for history), not the Hard Shaolin. Therefore, DaMo couldn't have been the creator and it's most likely that someone gave credit to DaMo, but in reality that someone else is the creator (and went into Shaolin of course).

With this kind of explanation. What do you think of the possible ways that it wouldn't be written like JY written it in the 3rd edition? Of course, the old way of Damo creating 9 Yin and 9 Yang fits my taste the most. Even though I would still hate the 9 Yang origin(the 3rd edition one), but in this case, I can't think of much other ways.

[chuy605]

wow, that's some interesting informatiom.

[wkeej]

it said that 9 Yang was a Daoist (why do people write Tao?

what's the difference between the two?

[wiggy13]

Originally Posted by Whsie
it said that 9 Yang was a Daoist (why do people write Tao?


what's the difference between the two?
wkeej is online now Report Bad Post Reply With Quote


From :http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/giles/2005/05/daoism-vs-taoism.html"

Daoism vs. Taoism
You may have seen both terms, Daoism and Taoism, used in reference to the same concept, and wondered why the word is spelled differently all the time. Quite a debate has actually sprung up over which spelling is "correct", or which "should" be used.

The Chinese writing system uses characters to convey meaning (rather than pronunciation). In order for us to represent these characters in English, we have to apply a system of "romanization", or a phonetic transcription into the Roman alphabet. Basically, we take how the word sounds, and then attempt to write it down in our alphabet so that the English translation reflects what the Chinese word sounds like. It's actually more complicated than that because it's not done on a word-by-word basis; instead, a well-structured system has to be employed whereby the same phonetic sounds are transcribed in the same way in every word in which they appear. Further complication arises from the fact that these romanizations are reflective of the pronunciation of Modern Standard Chinese—more commonly known as Mandarin—which is only one of many dialects of the Chinese language. The systems of romanizations I am discussing do not accurately represent how a word would be pronounced by someone in Cantonese, for example.

The current official system of romanization for Modern Standard Chinese is commonly called pinyin (although it is more accurately called Hanyu pinyin, because there is at least one different pinyin system). The names Daoism, Daodejing, Laozi, Mr. Kong, Zhuangzi, and Cao Cao are all examples of pinyin romanization. The most popular system of romanization in the 19th century (when Daoism/Taoism first became widely studied in the West) was the Wade-Giles system. The names Taoism, Tao Te Ching, Lao-tzu, Mr. K'ung, Chuang Tzu, and Ts'ao Ts'ao are all examples of Wade-Giles romanization. Now, it's important to note that the differences in spelling are not reflective of differences in dialect or pronunciation; in fact, the corresponding words (Dao and Tao, Laozi and Lao-tzu, etc.) are pronounced exactly the same. They are merely different attempts to represent the same sounds in our system of writing, as accurately as possible.

The problem that I mentioned earlier stems from the fact that many Chinese terms became quite popular in English long before the pinyin system was developed. Taoism, it is argued, has become so familiar a concept in English that it is now, for all intents and purposes, an English word. Proponents of "Taoism" (the spelling, not the philosophy) argue that it doesn't make sense to begin spelling it "Daoism" when it has been known as "Taoism" for so long. The other camp asserts that "Daoism" is now the officially accepted rendering of the term, and that adherence to the older system is nothing more than nostalgia. An article at Wikipedia exposes some revealing views on this issue:

Some people think that existing words in English which come from Chinese words should be remodeled after the pinyin transliteration scheme. Others think that the older forms should be retained because those spellings have become English words in their own right—and hence are not Chinese anymore—while new borrowings should be written according to the official transliteration scheme. [...] This encyclopedia should use English spellings, such as Taoism and Tao Te Ching, in all articles, for consistency. (Direct link.)

Note the author's use of phrases like "existing words in English which come from Chinese words", and the assertion that the words in question are somehow "not Chinese anymore". Now, I realize that translation is always a form of cultural or linguistic appropriation to some degree, and that we can't simply avoid this appropriation by always writing 道德經 instead of Tao Te Ching or Daodejing; therefore, my argument in favour of the use of pinyin is not simply an argument against appropriation itself. I am very sceptical of the degree to which names like Tao Te Ching have really become assimilated into English. To me, it seems less offensive to translate those terms from the Chinese each time we wish to represent them in our language (thus adhering to the most current romanization system) than to claim, for the sake of convenience and familiarity, that they are now English words. For this reason, I will attempt to be consistent in my use of the pinyin romanization system, which is currently officially sanctioned by the People's Republic of China. If I update the spelling of Chinese words in quotations from works by other authors, I will mention the change in a note.

Posted by Mr. Kong at 12:15 AM;
3 Comments:

Another Damned Medievalist said:

Yeah, you can't really go by the Wikipedia, though. They spend a lot of time trying to be neutral, and sometimes sensible things get lost.

What I find interesting is how we tend to keep some Wade-Giles, even with pinyin. And which things we keep. I'm using Spence's very good Search for Modern China this quarter, and he keeps Peking, which was the very first pinyin transliteration I remember, and which is the normal reference for the city in news and diplomacy. He also keeps Chiang Kai-Shek, which is helpful to me, since that's the name I learned. But Jiang Jieshi works, too. My problem is that I've not come across a good pronunciation guide for pinyin -- and the equivalency tables in Spence don't help when it comes to approximate pronunciation for Anglos not used to tonal languages...
7/5/05 10:14 PM
Mr. Kong said:

I do agree that a line has to be drawn somewhere with regards to keeping Wade-Giles. It would be difficult to update the spelling of words like ketchup (which has a non-Mandarin Chinese origin), or even the name China itself (who would buy into "Qina"?). I only question where the line should be drawn. In the end, the decision has to be arbitrary.

Peking's an odd case; it comes from an early "postal" pinyin based on Wade-Giles (Pei-ching)--the modern Hanyu pinyin would be Beijing. In theory, a speaker of modern Mandarin would pronounce Peking and Beijing the same. And this is where I think some of the issue of which words maintain older transliterations is solved. English speakers have become accustomed to pronouncing Peking and Chiang Kai-Shek as they look, rather than trying to learn how those familiar letter combinations are supposed to sound when representing another language. As a result, changing to Beijing and Jiang Jieshi is not simply a matter of learning a new way to spell a familiar word. Heck, people still get confused about whether Mao Tse-tung and Mao Zedong are the same guy, and their literal Anglicized pronunciations are fairly close. I'm sure Peking and Chiang Kai-Shek have stuck around for so long mainly because that's how people are used to saying them.

I think each romanization has its sticky points, and good pronunciation guides usually end up being extensive (often to the point of confusion). Pinyin is notorious for its troublesome 'c', 'z', and 'q', while Wade-Giles has problems with its many instances of 'ch' and can be aesthetically/visually confusing. The other pinyin I mentioned in my entry--Tongyong pinyin--is fairly interesting in that it uses 'jh' (which I quite like) for Hanyu pinyin's 'zh'. I do think pinyin is less intimidating to look at than Wade-Giles, and perhaps less intimidating to learn for this reason.

I haven't looked at Spence yet, but I'll pick it up at the university library on Monday.
7/5/05 11:29 PM
Benny said:

I support the pinyin systemisation for the reasons you listed.

Cheers!

Worldpeace,
Ben
27/7/05 2:24 AM

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[Battosai]

Well, I'm gonna post this here for now but if nobody answers, I'm gonna make a thread out of it.

Anyways, do you think that the new DGSD makes the Xiaoyao elders weaker than before? Or at least makes it more clearer that they aren't god-like?

Also, what does Tonglao use for energy cultivation? The new skill sounds like for cosmetic surgery only, or is it still a Daoist energy cultivation skill of most profound level like it was in the previous editions?

[Athena]

Well, I'm gonna post this here for now but if nobody answers, I'm gonna make a thread out of it.

Anyways, do you think that the new DGSD makes the Xiaoyao elders weaker than before? Or at least makes it more clearer that they aren't god-like?

Also, what does Tonglao use for energy cultivation? The new skill sounds like for cosmetic surgery only, or is it still a Daoist energy cultivation skill of most profound level like it was in the previous editions?

I didn't think so. To me the three Xiaoyao elders still seem as powerful as they were in the past. Only Tonglao's martial arts name has been changed, it is still very powerful.
The only thing that has changed is that the readers will know a bit more about the personalities of the Xiaoyao elders. But martial arts wise, they are the same as in edition 2.

[Whsie]

Lol. Tonglao's cultivation name is WAY TOO long. If you were to abbreviate it in english it would take around 9 letters.

I went to Taiwan this break. And I checked out the new DSGS. Apparently JY tried to elevate XF's status despite the fact that he took out the part where it tells us that XF can beat people stronger than him. In Book 3, XF's 30% power was able to match the Abbot's bang luo palm. Man, wouldn't 100% be totally ownage(despite the fact that energy gets depleted quickly)?

[AresInvincible]

Uhh...in case you didn't realize, the "Lao" in Tonglao in this case is supposed to be pronounced as "Mu." So it's supposed to be Tianshan Tongmu. Go check a dictionary if you have any doubt.

Oh, and one more question: Why did JY change that Taoist in Ode to Gallantry from the leader of Qingcheng to Kongdong? The only reason that seems reasonable to me is that JY wants Ode to Gallantry to happen after Smiling Proud Wanderer in Ming Dynasty.

[Athena]

To AresInvincible:

姥 has two pronunciations:

1. pronounced as [lao].
2. pronounced as [mu].

addendum 1: Usually dual form laolao means (maternal) granny and is the colloquial addressing term for old women. Or it can mean midwife.

addendum 2: means elderly woman.

In the case of "Tonglao," because she insists people calling her [姥姥] (dual form), so it shoud be pronounced as Tianshan Tonglao.

Source: "Xinhua dictionary"

As for why reverend Yushan is now the leader of the Kongtong School instead of Qingcheng is a mystery. Qingcheng school existed even in the Northern Song dynasty and made an appearance in DGSD. And now in the 3rd edition of DGSD, the Kongtong school is mentioned too and the Kongtong school is also mentioned in the Smiling Proud Wanderer and the Duke of Mount Deer.
Both martial arts schools had a very ong history.

[Athena]

When Xiao Feng met those 5 Xuan generation monks, he just showed that he understood the principles of the Dragon Subduing Palms.

He used the palm "Haughty Dragon has Regrets" or whatever it is called in English against reverend Xuandu, never sides seemed to gain the upper hand after this clash of palms.
The same goes for the other Xuan generation monks. Abbot Xuanci used a palm attack of the Prana palms, but at the moment two energies were to collide. Xuanci retracted his energy, Xiao Feng was confused. He did not understand the intention of this old man, was it a trick to fool Xiao Feng in retracting too but at the last minute the old man would attack. But if Xiao Feng did not retract he could kill the old man. A part of Xuanci wanted Xiao Feng to strike him down, so that he could pay for what he did 30 years ago.

Xiao Feng's execution of the "Haughty Dragon has Regrets" is just the theory, the theory Hong Qigong explained to Guo Jing when teaching him the Dragon Subduing Palms in chapter 12, put in practice.

[Athena]

I decided to post the changes of the third edition of the Book and Sword, Gratitude and Revenge.
I remember that Leviathan posted the changes of the third edition of this novel on the other wuxia forum several years ago.
I hoped that he was going to post it here too, but since that hasn't happened I will post them now.

The changes in this novel are not that big.

1. Zhang Zhaozhong, the evil Wudang expert, redeems himself a bit in this edition. In the past he was thrown into the pit filled with wolves, his martial arts brother Lu Feiqing jumped down to save him and he bear hugged Lu Feiqing hoping to go down with him. At that point he was a bit crazed and didn't know exactly who jumped down. Now, he does the same thing but he suddenly sees the face of Lu Feiqing and shouted:"It's you. You were always very good to me and treated me like your brother..." And when a wolf wanted to attack Lu Feiqing, Zhang Zhaozhong blocked the wolf. However, in the end Zhang was still eaten by the wolves and Lu Feiqing was saved by the others.

2. An error was corrected in this edition. In the past, it seemed that the imperial guards commander, Bai Zhen was in two places at the same time. He was in Beijing and also in "Jiangnan" on a special mission. (He was ordered to inform the governor of Fujian to burn down Southern Shaolin).
In order to correct this mistake, Jin Yong created another imperial guard commander, named Wang Qing. Wang Qing was in Beijing and met with the heroes of the Red Flower Society while Bai Zhen was still in Fujian. Bai Zhen was back in Beijing again when Southern Shaolin was burnt to a crisp. So the error in the past was corrected.

3. In the previous editions, Bai Zhen committed suicide when he was forced to confront Chen Jialuo again, this happened when the heroes of the Red Flower Society had cornered Emperor Qianlong. (*Chen saved the life of Bai Zhen once).
The heroes respected Bai Zhen for being a rather good man and allowed him to leave, but he didn't and committed suicide. But now, he does leave and sighs that he won't show his face in the realm again. In the past he was more or less forced to commit suicide by Qianlong. Qianlong in the past saw that Bai Zhen was reluctant to fight Chen Jialuo and remarked sarcastically that Chen saves Bai Zhen's life. Bai Zhen knew that Qianlong was wary of himself now and killed himself.
Fortunately, Bai Zhen survives now in edition 3.

4. Jin Yong added another chapter to the novel, this chapter happens when the heroes have retreated to the Muslim regions. And Chen Jialuo was just saved because he tried to commit suicide. Lu Feiqing and others reprimanded him for this foolish act. Huo Qingtong and Chen Jialuo discussed the islam and in a semi-conscious he hallucinated or perhaps it wasn't a hallucination in which he saw Princess Fragrance telling him to be strong.
I thought it was quite touching.

[Swordwiz]

Athena, that's a great amount of information you posted, thanks a lot!

I don't know where to ask this question, so tell me if this isn't the right place.

Anyway, currently, I am reading LOCH on my computer (I just dug it up, I guess I found it on the internet awhile ago). I was wondering what edition it is. If it is noted in the book somewhere, where will I be able to find it? If it is usually not noted on a internet version of the book (for example, it may be on the bookcover or something), then which part of the book can I check to easily identify its edition?

Thanks.

[MisterM]

The Young Flying Fox
.
.
.
- Yuan Ziyi is not so detestable anymore.
.
.
.

Thank God, I just read through Young Flying Fox 2nd ed for the first time and I think Yuan Ziyi may be my new most hated female character in all of Wuxia, by the end of the novel I just figured that her behavior as a messanger of the Red Flower Society and friends was so utterly horrible that they decided that they didn't have enough face left to ever show themselves in public again, and that's why they never made a comeback. (ok, that may be a slight exageration, but still, what a *****)

[Allen D]

is there a 3rd edition of Smiling Proud Wanderer?

[Dennis Chen]

is there a 3rd edition of Smiling Proud Wanderer?

I believe it just came out.

[Whsie]

can someone tell me the changes?

[Allen D]

i trust athena will post them soon

[ktchong]

Btw, I came back from Vancouver today. While on my Thanksgiving vacation, I noticed one of the book stores selling the NEW 3rd EDITION of DSGS. It was expensive at $95 Canadian money which is in the 80s for American money. Yes, it came out. So any of you guys read it yet?

Here in Los Angeles, I bought the 3rd edition of the Book and the Sword and The Condor Heroes in Chinatown at US$5.50 (+ taxes) for each volume. So it is about US$12 for a two-volume set and US$20-$30 for a 4-volume or 5-volume set. The books are new and imported from China.

A week later, I found another bookstore in Monterey Park that sells the complete set of Jin Yong 2nd-edition novels (including all 14 novels) for only US$57 + tax. Hopefully, the bookstore will carry the complete 3rd edition when the set comes out in June.

Anyway, I am still reading my new copies of the Book and the Sword and The Condor Heroes. I have never read the 2nd edition (nor the 1st) before, so I am reading the novels with a fresh mind and no preconceived bias.

I quickly browsed through the Book and the Sword and skipped to the newly added final chapter, in which the main character was contemplating suicide. He then underwent a hallucination, met his dead princess sweetheart, and discussed the Koran (i.e., the Islam holy book) with her. That chapter is awful. It is corny, and its writing style is out-of-place with the rest of the book. However, without that newly added final chapter, the whole story seem to just come to an abrupt end after the palace battle in Chapter 20.

I also browsed through The Condor Heroes, and I have already found an error. The Mongol princess sent an apology letter to Guo Jin after Genghis Khan had forced his mother to commit suicide because she had reported Guo and his mother's attempt to escape. The book said the princess' letter was written in Mongolian. However, earlier in the book and later in the afterwords, Jin Yong wrote that Mongols did not have a writing system at that time. (i.e., Mongolian was an oral language with no writing.) So how was the princess supposed to write a letter in Mongolian if there was no Mongolian writing system?

[strife_au]

he book said she wrote the letter in Mongolian. However, earlier in the book and later in the afterwords, Jin Yong wrote that Mongols did not have a writing system at that time. (i.e., Mongolian was an oral language with no writing.) So how was the princess supposed to write a letter in Mongolian if there was no Mongolian writing system?

wow... nice spot?!