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Thread: Losing fights in the wuxia world - worth losing one's life over?!

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Losing fights in the wuxia world - worth losing one's life over?!

    Many warriors in the wuxia world considered it a great dishonor to lose a fight...so much so that if they were to lose a fight, they would commit suicide, unable to accept the fact that someone else is their superior in martial arts.

    This is a very dubious attitude to hold towards competition.

    Unless he happens to be the Janitor Monk, chances are that a martial artist will encounter a better martial artist at some point in his life. If one were to hold true that defeat means suicide, 90% of wulin's martial artists would die through suicide.

    Take the example of Yau Tan Tze's father and uncle, for example. So they got their butts handed to them by Kiu Fung at their home in front of hundreds of wulin members. Considering whom they were up against, however, it isn't all that shameful. The very fact that they fought Kiu Fung and lived to tell about it was something to be proud of, in fact.

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    I think it is all tied in with the 'xia' way of life, however distorted that may be. To the members of Wulin, honor and pride were often worth more than their lives. A natural extension of that pride was also the school or sect that they belonged to. Many would rather die than bring shame to their sect's name. Often, they saw it as their lives being expendable, but the name and honor of their masters and sect were untarnishable.

    Such was the case for the two Manor Masters in DGSD. In XAJH, Linghu Chong thought about suicide many times in order to save Huashan from being disgraced. So in Wulin, being defeated or shamed didn't affect just the individual, but the entire clan or school as well.

    I think this code of honor and pride has a corollary in history in the Bushido Code of the samurai. Seppukku was very common for samurais who would rather take their own lives than face shame and defeat.
    明月心跳起來,又回頭,嫣然道,“你還要不要我帶上那面具?”
    傅紅雪冷道,“現在你臉上豈非已經戴上了個面具?”

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    Senior Member qiaofeng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Many warriors in the wuxia world considered it a great dishonor to lose a fight...so much so that if they were to lose a fight, they would commit suicide, unable to accept the fact that someone else is their superior in martial arts.

    This is a very dubious attitude to hold towards competition.

    Unless he happens to be the Janitor Monk, chances are that a martial artist will encounter a better martial artist at some point in his life. If one were to hold true that defeat means suicide, 90% of wulin's martial artists would die through suicide.

    Take the example of Yau Tan Tze's father and uncle, for example. So they got their butts handed to them by Kiu Fung at their home in front of hundreds of wulin members. Considering whom they were up against, however, it isn't all that shameful. The very fact that they fought Kiu Fung and lived to tell about it was something to be proud of, in fact.
    i think is cus qiaofeng robbed them of their shields right under their noses. i remembered them saying something like sifu said that if the shield exists so do we, if the shield is gone so r we or something like that. since those r the words of their sifu, i guess according to the wulin code of honor they are obliged to kill themsleves. + i dont think they felt ashamed that they lost to qiaofeng, hell he was beating the crap out of every single one of them, including the 2 shaolin monks

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    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    Yeah, the monk XuanNan basically got his pressure points sealed and lifted uop by XF with the sharp edge of the shield near his next in front of the crowd of wulin fighters. After his release he thought nothing of suiciding. Wulin fighters see losing as shame sometimes, but not as much as the Japanese.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    It depends on which school they went to and which BS they were brainwashed with. You Tan Zhi's father and uncle got an extremist as their sifu.

    There are those who would commit suicide like these fools, but there are those who would say "Winning or losing is normal in warfare" and might even be grateful for being taught what their limits were.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    I don't recall that many incidents of fighters trying to kill themselves after losing a fight actually.

    Otherwise Quanzhen Sect would be nearly extinct after GJ's visit.

    XF's defeated foes were mentioned as not wanting another fight, not as killing themselves.

    MRF's lackeys... haha! Nuff said.

    The Duan bodyguards/disciples didnt kill themselves after meeting XF and GJ.

    Non of the Greats suicided after losing to WCY.

    Jiangnan 7 freaks! Again, no need to elaborate.

    No one on brightness peak killed themselves after the major arse kicking they received from a young boy.

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    possibly it's a face value. but sometimes i wonder, because often the phrase used is "too shameful to face the ancestors". by committing suicide, don't they face the ancestors quicker? even one is in hell and the other heaven.

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    Senior Member kamii's Avatar
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    Hmm it seems alot of people don't commit suicide though.....like they always want revenge. "He beat me in that fight 10 years ago so i have been training for the past 10 years to crush him", this type of scenario happened quite often did it not? Not just in Jin Yong novels but alot of wuxia stories. And i guess it was the discipline of the individual, some people just couldn't face defeat while some just saw it as a bump in the road to success. While some weaker fighters did not seem too overly worried about being defeated, those top notch fighters who are absolutely crushed though cannot face defeat. Like if they have a name in the wulin world but are beaten rather easily then they lose alot of face, but then again there are those who love having fights with others on their level and the defeat will only help them improve....
    Full Metal Alchemist - HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI

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    Chapter 39 HSDS Page 1589

    The matter of life and death is of little significance from the views of Wulin heroes, what’s more serious and necessary, is the protection of their dignity at all costs. This is what’s so-called “A man expects to be killed than rather be the subject of humiliation.” The act of both people spitting on his face, is deemed to be the worst kind of degradation that can be possibly laid upon anyone. In spite of all that, Xie Xun remained calm whilst he endured the oncoming verbal and physical abuse that was hurled at him. Quite simply, the attitude of profound repentance for all the crimes he committed was well and openly proclaimed.

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    Senior Member allunderheaven's Avatar
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    Isn't there the sayng in chinese that wulin people uses alot, ''10years is nothing for a gentlemen's revenge'' or something like that
    If You Love something, Let it Go...
    If It Comes Back Then It's Yours...
    If It Doesn't Then It Never Was...

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    It's up to the individual, I guess, their character, sense of responsibility and how they treat failure. Personally, I think it's just a cowardly way for some of the weaker guys to get out of what they deem is a humiliating situation in public.

    YTZ's seniors used underhanded means to harm XF, but not only did they fail, they were exposed by XF in front of all those present at the manor. So they committed suicide.

    MRF couldn't stand XF reprimanding him and holding him up in the air and flinging him aside so effortlessly. Plus he couldn't stand straight after that and fell again (not to mention he had just lost to the much younger and unknown DY). All these in front of the thousands gathered at Shaolin. Hence he tried to kill himself.

    Would they have done the same had the humiliation been private, away from public eyes and knowledge? I hardly think so.

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    I don't recall that many incidents of fighters trying to kill themselves after losing a fight actually.

    Otherwise Quanzhen Sect would be nearly extinct after GJ's visit.
    In ROCH 1996, Qiu Chuji mentioned to Hao Datong "Winning and losing are normal occurences in warfare. If I killed myself everytime I lost, even with an extra 10 heads I wouldn't have enough to cut them off!" Made great sense, that man.

    Of course, Hao Datong didn't really want to commit suicide - in fact he tried to avoid it - he was forced to under pressure from Xiao Longnu, but Qiu nevertheless felt obliged to advise his martial brother. Was that in the novel, or a TVB filler? I heard ROCH96 was fairly accurate.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    That was in the novel, Ian.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

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    Oddly enough, the same line is repeated in ROCH 96 as well...I remember the scene.

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