The moral dilemma of Mui Chiu Fung and Chan Yeun Fung

[Ken Cheng]

When you think about it, Mui Chiu Fung and Chan Yeun Fung's decision to steal the 9 Yum Jen Ging from their teacher, East Heretic Wong Yerk See, was a Catch-22 situation from which they could not have found a satisfactory way out. It makes you wonder why they did it in the first place.

There are only two possible reasons that they stole the 9 Yum Jen Ging.

1. They wanted to become the best fighters in the world, and believed that the 9 Yum Jen Ging would make them the best...even better than their teacher and the other Greats.

2. They had no interest in becoming great fighters per se, but they were in love, and their teacher had forbidden them from being with one another. They had no choice but to elope from Peach Blossom Island, but they knew their teacher would be in pursuit of them and would execute them after he had found them. To protect themselves, they needed the 9 Yum Jen Ging, which would enable them (they hoped) to defend themselves from Wong Yerk See.

Problem: both Mui Chiu Fung and Chan Yeun Fung adored and revered their teacher. Whether they had ambitions to become the best fighters or merely wanted to protect themselves from their teacher's wrath, what they would not be able to avoid in achieving either goal is using the 9 Yum Jen Ging to kill or defeat their teacher if they could. How could they bring themselves to do it? Didn't they have too much respect and love for their teacher to try to humiliate him at a future Mt. Hua Sword Tournament...or kill him if he forced them to separate? It doesn't make any sense, and there's no positive way out of this for the Mui/Chan couple.

[i_fotted]

Yea, it made no sense to me neither. I imagine they were drunk and just made a major booboo.

[xuelian]

I think it started out with the need for self-defense should Huang Yao Shi catch up with them. However, there is reason to suspect greed on Chen Xuan Feng's part, especially once he saw what 9Yin could teach him. We know he has always been more ambitious than Mei Chao Feng: he has always lectured her for not working hard since young. He was also the one who 'supervised' both their training in 9Yin by carving the text on his body and not allowing Mei Chao Feng to view it. Once they began studying it, they probably became more and more enthralled by the amazing kungfu. Chen Xuan Feng's greed is well-explained in this paragraph:

(Mei Chao Feng's recollections)

My husband said that year: "Zeiponiang! We only stole the 2nd half of the 9 Yin Sutra and are completely in the dark about the foundations and neigong theories contained in the 1st half. The skills in the Sutra is based on Taoist philosophy, and is different from what Teacher has taught us. We cannot continue practising it. What do you think we should do?"

I said: "What can we do?"

He said: "Let's go to Peach Blossom Isle again."

How would I dare to set foot on Peach Blossom Isle again? Even with 10 times our power, we wouldn't even be a match for two of Teacher's fingers. My Zeihanzi was also terrified, but the sutra contained such amazing kungfu that he wouldn't die in peace if he couldn't practise it. Determined to steal the 1st half, he said: "Either us husband and wife become invincible, or you become a widow."

I certainly didn't want to be a widow! If we die, we die together...

[Zhuge Liang]

It would have been easier for them to just hide for the rest of their lives.

If they perceived that the manual was intrinsic in protecting themselves then it was also tragic as retreiving the manual would have made HYS track them twice as hard.

Did HYS ever find out that GJ killed Chen Xuan Feng? And if so what was his reaction?

[Ken Cheng]

Did Chan Yeun Fung and Mui Chiu Fung steal the 9 Yum Jen Ging from their teacher, East Heretic Wong Yerk See, out of ambition or desperation? Were they, like everyone else, ambitious to become the best martial artists in the world, or were they simply looking for a way to protect themselves from their teacher's wrath if they were to live together as lovers against Wong Yerk See's wishes?

[Tony Lam]

Did Chan Yeun Fung and Mui Chiu Fung steal the 9 Yum Jen Ging from their teacher, East Heretic Wong Yerk See, out of ambition or desperation? Were they, like everyone else, ambitious to become the best martial artists in the world, or were they simply looking for a way to protect themselves from their teacher's wrath if they were to live together as lovers against Wong Yerk See's wishes?

Why was it against Wong Yerk See's wishes for Chan Yeun Fung and Mui Chiu Fung to live together as lovers?

[Ken Cheng]

Why was it against Wong Yerk See's wishes for Chan Yeun Fung and Mui Chiu Fung to live together as lovers?

I don't think it was ever really explained, but he forbade it.

[Tazzy1972]

Think he sorta loved MCF

[Ken Cheng]

Like practically ALL of East Heretic Wong Yerk See's students, Mui Chiu Fung and Chan Yeun Fung were fanatically devoted to their teacher. They had utmost love and respect for him and no matter what, they would never turn against him. Mui Chiu Fung was so loyal to her teacher that she died to save his life from West Poison Au Yeung Fung.

For this reason, their initial impulse to steal the 9 Yum Jen Ging seems improbable.

What goals did Mui Chiu Fung and Chan Yeun Fung have in mind for stealing the 9 Yum Jen Ging? Reasonably, there can only be two:

1. They were in love, but their teacher forbid them to marry. Therefore, to be able to marry without fear of reprisals from their teacher, they needed to master the 9 Yum Jen Ging so that he would not be able to threaten them. PROBLEM: even if they had succeeded in mastering the 9 Yum Jen Ging (something they never came even close to achieving), they would need to fight Wong Yerk See if the situation came to a head. Would they have? Could they have? It's hard to imagine any scenario in which Mui Chiu Fung or Chan Yeun Fung would be willing to fight Wong Yerk See even if they had the ability to do so.

2. The other probable goal is that they, like practically everybody else who tried to get their hands on the 9 Yum Jen Ging, wanted to become the world's top martial artists of their time and achieve power, glory, and perhaps wealth in wulin. Of course, the path to that goal necessarily includes eliminating their rivals...e.g. the Greats...which includes their teacher.

The point being - if Mui Chiu Fung and Chan Yeun Fung were to succeed in their likely goals, they would need to, at some point, confront their teacher East Heretic Wong Yerk See. I can't see either one being willing to do that even if they had the ability to do so.

[goodrick]

1. They were in love, but their teacher forbid them to marry. Therefore, to be able to marry without fear of reprisals from their teacher, they needed to master the 9 Yum Jen Ging so that he would not be able to threaten them. PROBLEM: even if they had succeeded in mastering the 9 Yum Jen Ging (something they never came even close to achieving), they would need to fight Wong Yerk See if the situation came to a head. Would they have? Could they have? It's hard to imagine any scenario in which Mui Chiu Fung or Chan Yeun Fung would be willing to fight Wong Yerk See even if they had the ability to do so.

That is a very good point that you raised there Ken. Given the love and the reverance that they had for their teacher, it would've been very difficult for them to fight him. But if someone close to me and dear to me would physically threaten me and try to attack or hurt me or kill me, I probably would be willing to forget in that moment who the person is and my natural reaction would be to defend myself any way possible regardless of who the person is.
I think MCF and CYF had a very clear understanding that they would never be the ones to make the first blow or initiate a fight against their teacher. But if push comes to shove and if their teacher was hell bent on attacking, hurting or killing them, then they would naturally react in a way in order to physically defend themselves and Jiu Yin Zhen Jing would provide them a means to do that!

2. The other probable goal is that they, like practically everybody else who tried to get their hands on the 9 Yum Jen Ging, wanted to become the world's top martial artists of their time and achieve power, glory, and perhaps wealth in wulin. Of course, the path to that goal necessarily includes eliminating their rivals...e.g. the Greats...which includes their teacher.

I disagree with this point. For e.g. Wang Chongyang never acquired the manual in order to achieve power, glory or wealth. His motive was to keep the manual to himself and prevent the evil people from acquiring it.
Similarly, I don't believe MCF and CYF acquired this manual to achieve glory or wealth, but their primary purpose was to become powerful enough so that in the event someone as powerful as their teacher attacked them, then they had a decent chance to defend themselves. They did not want the manual to eliminate their teacher, but just to defend themselves.

[Ken Cheng]

Whatever their reason might have been, I don't think Mui Chiu Fung and Chan Yeun Fung were psychologically prepared to fight their teacher. The reverential attitude that Chan and especially Mui showed to him leads me to believe that they'd gladly die at his hands rather than raise a hand disrespectfully against him. I just can't see any scenario in which they'd be willing to fight him.

[shortsight]

Personally, I don't think MCF and CYF were simply thinking of defending themselves against their master, since they ended up killing a lot of innocent people.

I wonder why the heck they terrorized wulin and made a name for themselves when they wanted to escape from HYS.

[Ken Cheng]

Personally, I don't think MCF and CYF were simply thinking of defending themselves against their master, since they ended up killing a lot of innocent people.

I wonder why the heck they terrorized wulin and made a name for themselves when they wanted to escape from HYS.

Their whole motivation for stealing the 9 Yum Jen Ging and subsequent activities don't make a whole lot of sense.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Like practically ALL of East Heretic Wong Yerk See's students, Mui Chiu Fung and Chan Yeun Fung were fanatically devoted to their teacher. They had utmost love and respect for him and no matter what, they would never turn against him. Mui Chiu Fung was so loyal to her teacher that she died to save his life from West Poison Au Yeung Fung.

For this reason, their initial impulse to steal the 9 Yum Jen Ging seems improbable.

What goals did Mui Chiu Fung and Chan Yeun Fung have in mind for stealing the 9 Yum Jen Ging? Reasonably, there can only be two:

1. They were in love, but their teacher forbid them to marry. Therefore, to be able to marry without fear of reprisals from their teacher, they needed to master the 9 Yum Jen Ging so that he would not be able to threaten them. PROBLEM: even if they had succeeded in mastering the 9 Yum Jen Ging (something they never came even close to achieving), they would need to fight Wong Yerk See if the situation came to a head. Would they have? Could they have? It's hard to imagine any scenario in which Mui Chiu Fung or Chan Yeun Fung would be willing to fight Wong Yerk See even if they had the ability to do so.

2. The other probable goal is that they, like practically everybody else who tried to get their hands on the 9 Yum Jen Ging, wanted to become the world's top martial artists of their time and achieve power, glory, and perhaps wealth in wulin. Of course, the path to that goal necessarily includes eliminating their rivals...e.g. the Greats...which includes their teacher.

The point being - if Mui Chiu Fung and Chan Yeun Fung were to succeed in their likely goals, they would need to, at some point, confront their teacher East Heretic Wong Yerk See. I can't see either one being willing to do that even if they had the ability to do so.

The novel (at least in 3rd edition) states explicitly, IIRC, that the former is the case. See Athena's translation:

I told what Shimu had said to my thieving brother. He said:” During the Mid-Autumn Festival Master revealed his feelings. He still seems to care for eldest brother Qu. I think there is a chance that Master will forgive eldest brother and allow him to return the isle. If that happens, I am doomed. We really have to be thieves this time, we have to steal the Jiuyin scriptures and learnt its martial arts. After mastering it we will return it to Master by that time we shouldn’t even fear Master and certainly not eldest brother.”

I opposed this plan and said I would report this to Master. My thieving brother was really bold, that very night he was determined to steal the scriptures.
For days now Master has been very pensive. It does not look like he was thinking of composing new poems or lyrics. His two fingers would move about from time to time. I told this to elder brother Chen, he said that Master must be thinking and analyzing the martial arts of the Jiuyin scriptures. That is why he has not taught any of us martial arts or even spoken to us. I saw that Master’s hair was gradually turning white and felt sad. Elder Brother Chen said that he saw Master holding a copy of the manual and walking to the Sword Testing Pavilion and was mumbling something. Elder brother approached Master and said:” Master.” But Master seemed not to have heard him and just kept walking.

Elder brother Chen moved aside and snuck into the study of Master. He saw one volume on the desk and Master was holding one in his hands. The only reason why elder brother Chen was able to steal the volume was because Master was contemplating on the contents of the scripture.

He wanted to steal the other volume too. I disagreed vehemently, I said that stealing one was already an unforgivable crime. If we steal another the other one too, we are just scum. I told him that Master has always treated us very well, we should show at least show some gratitude. My thieving brother said:” He treated you well. He never treated me well.”

I said:” If you try to steal the other volume, I will go Masters’ study and shout:[Someone is trying to steal the Jiuyin scriptures! Master! Master!”

Afterwards, when they returned (Chen Xuanfeng wanted to steal the other volume due to the pursuit of the heroes which Lu Chengfeng/Ke Pixie led after them) to Peach Blossom Island, they watched HYS defeat ZBT and realized what a huge gap there is between the two of them. At that time, HYS let them go while warning them not to practice the skills in 9Ying, but they did so nonetheless, not for the sake of fighting HYS, but for the sake of defending themselves against the heroes which Lu Chengfeng led against them.

[goodrick]

Their whole motivation for stealing the 9 Yum Jen Ging and subsequent activities don't make a whole lot of sense.

I agree, they don't jive too well

[kyss of the sword]

her recollections must have left a lot of details about their mindset out. they decided to steal the manual because their relationship was opposed and HYS stopped teaching them martial arts. they were like other martial artist, they wanted to reach the top but couldn't with their capabilities so practiced the skills in 9yin manual.

[clfan]

I just rewatch the TVB 1993 series Mystery of the Condoer Heroes. Julian Chueng and Emily Kwan was great in this series.
The love story here between Mui Chiu-fung and Chan Yuen-fung TVB version of this series was very sweet. How accurate was this from the Jin Yong written book relationship of Mui Chiu-fung and Chan Yuen-fung? Probably not accurate, since this prequal part was written by TVB.
I didn't the book, so I don't know the accuracy of how TVB portrait this couple compared to the book.

[PJ]

Did HYS ever find out that GJ killed Chen Xuan Feng? And if so what was his reaction?

Here's the relevant passage from LOCH. Basically, yes, HYS did find out, and he wanted to seriously hurt GJ. But HR jumped into the lake in protest, forcing HYS to forfeit the slaying.

黄药师忽然向他招了招手，道：“你叫郭靖？”郭靖忙上前拜倒，说道：“弟子郭靖参见
黄老前辈。”黄药师道：“我的弟子陈玄风是你杀的？你本事可不小哇！”郭靖听他语意
不善，心中一凛，说道：“那时弟子年幼无知，给陈前辈擒住了，慌乱之中，失手伤了他
。”
黄药师哼了一声，冷冷的道：“陈玄风虽是我门叛徒，自有我门中人杀他。桃花岛的
门人能教外人杀的么？”郭靖无言可答。黄蓉忙道：“爹爹，那时候他只有六岁，又懂得
甚么了？”黄药师犹如不闻，又道：“洪老叫化素来不肯收弟子，却把最得意的降龙十八
掌传给了你十五掌，你必有过人的长处了。要不然，总是你花言巧语，哄得老叫化欢喜了
你。你用老叫化所传的本事，打败了我门下弟子，哼哼，下次老叫化见了我，还不有得他
说嘴的么？”黄蓉笑道：“爹，花言巧语倒是有的，不过不是他，是我。他是老实头，你
别凶霸霸的吓坏了他。”
黄药师丧妻之后，与女儿相依为命，对她宠爱无比，因之把她惯得甚是娇纵，毫无规
矩，那日被父亲责骂几句，竟然便离家出走。黄药师本来料想爱女流落江湖，必定憔悴苦
楚，哪知一见之下，却是娇艳犹胜往昔，见她与郭靖神态亲密，处处回护于他，似乎反而
与老父生分了，心中颇有妒意，对郭靖更是有气

[PJ]

As to the original topic, I can only say that love is known to make ppl do stupid things.